Hurling Agents into other Agents

[Elbandit]

Howdy!

 

I am a GM and I have reached a difficult decision. I have checked the rules FAQ and find that it has conflicting rulings on this issue so I come to the HERO boards to get opinions and advice.

 

In my game the players have discovered the tactic of grabbing an enemy agent and hurling them into another agent. This happened during my last session and I made an quick ruling that it would require a second attack roll to hit the other agent.

 

However, after I read the rules FAQ I noticed that it stated that technically you could not do that since your first attack (the grab) ends your phase. You could throw the agent into the ground and do damage buit could not atatck a second agent with him.

 

I read further and found mention of Page 153 in Champions where it gives you the same ruling as what I did, but with a OCV penalty.

 

So I am now at an impass ... unsure which rule to follow. How do other GMs handle such an action?

 

FYI, my game has 3 brick type characters out of 6 players.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

Howdy!

 

I am a GM and I have reached a difficult decision. I have checked the rules FAQ and find that it has conflicting rulings on this issue so I come to the HERO boards to get opinions and advice.

 

In my game the players have discovered the tactic of grabbing an enemy agent and hurling them into another agent. This happened during my last session and I made an quick ruling that it would require a second attack roll to hit the other agent.

 

However, after I read the rules FAQ I noticed that it stated that technically you could not do that since your first attack (the grab) ends your phase. You could throw the agent into the ground and do damage buit could not atatck a second agent with him.

 

I read further and found mention of Page 153 in Champions where it gives you the same ruling as what I did, but with a OCV penalty.

 

So I am now at an impass ... unsure which rule to follow. How do other GMs handle such an action?

 

FYI, my game has 3 brick type characters out of 6 players.

 

Quick answer: Do what works. If you are comfortable with the way you did it before, stick with that method.

 

Long answer: 5ER is much newer than the 5th ed. Champions Genre book so the FAQ on http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/COMBAT%20AND%20ADVENTURING.htm is technically correct:

Q: Can a character make a Half Move, Grab an object, and then Throw that object at another character, and if so what rolls are required?

 

A: He can make the Half Move, and he can Grab and Throw the object. However, since the Grab and Throw require an Attack Action, that’s going to end his Phase. He can’t make a second attack by throwing the object at someone — he can only throw the object not as an attack, to damage it itself.

The character must make an Attack Roll to hit the object, which has a DCV based on its size (5ER 382). Standard modifiers, like the Range Modifier, apply.

The GM may make an exception to this rule if he wishes, but doing so may make Grab And Throw a far too attractive tactic for some characters.

In this case, the character has to make a second Attack Roll against the target at whom he’s throwing the object.

HM

[Vondy]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with your method. If I was feeling technical, I might require them to define it as a sweep manuever.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

I'd require them to declare in advance they're going to attempt this as a Sweep maneuver (with appropriate penalties), but otherwise I think doing that is just fine. Not only is hurling mooks at other mooks a classic bit by bricks and strong heroes even in non-super movies and TV shows, but supers are generally supposed to wade through agents and mooks with comparatively little effort. It makes them feel super, and it looks cool, and what's wrong with that? Let them have their fun. It's not like you're going to run out of agents, is it? (I generally assign the number of agents I want to fight our team based on how long I want the heroes to fight them. If they mop them up too fast, I send reinforcements.)

 

How was it the old Cheetosâ„¢ commercial went? "Crunch all you want. We'll make more.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with your method. If I was feeling technical' date=' I might require them to define it as a sweep manuever.[/quote']

 

Thats my suggestion. Treat it like a Sweep. -2 OCV to the Grab 'n Throw, and -2 OCV to hit the secondary target by throwing the original target. Attacker is at 1/2DCV.

 

Pretty simple. A great move, but risky as it leaves one open to counter-attack until your next phase...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

I'm going to agree with the posts above. If you want no penalties, you grab this phase and throw next phase. If you want to state a Sweep up front, you take the worst OCV modifier of the Grab and the Throw, -2 for each attack beyond the first, and you can try to grab and throw on the same phase.

 

One additional issue to watch out for - levels in HTH would be useful for Grab, but not Throw, so these cannot be used in conjunction with the above Sweep.

 

The OCV penalties, and loss of those HTH levels Bricks always buy up, should render the tactic reasonably, but not inordinately, effective.

 

Oh, and you need a MegaBrick NPC with lots of Grab & Throw levels to best highlight use of the tactic against them

[CDad]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

One suggestion...

 

If you have a "grab and throw" in a single phase, you might want to also rule that the throwing character can only use casual STR. This would make the "grab on phase 1, throw on phase 2" action more attractive.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

Q: Can a character make a Half Move, Grab an object, and then Throw that object at another character, and if so what rolls are required?

 

 

A: He can make the Half Move, and he can Grab and Throw the object. However, since the Grab and Throw require an Attack Action, that’s going to end his Phase. He can’t make a second attack by throwing the object at someone — he can only throw the object not as an attack, to damage it itself.

The character must make an Attack Roll to hit the object, which has a DCV based on its size (5ER 382). Standard modifiers, like the Range Modifier, apply.

The GM may make an exception to this rule if he wishes, but doing so may make Grab And Throw a far too attractive tactic for some characters.

In this case, the character has to make a second Attack Roll against the target at whom he’s throwing the object.

 

 

This is great. What happens if I just want to make a hole in the ground? Do I have to wait, so I an "aim" at the ground? My intent is to do damage to the ground, which seems to be the difference between a grab/throw and grab/throw at someone. I'm slowly thinking the FAQ should be scrapped and replaced by a general consensis of what the players actually do in their games, kinda like it was when 5E was written. And for those parts where their isn't a general consensis, just leave it up to us players, like normal, and let each of us do it our own way.

[Fox1]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

Generally I don't see a problem with the grab and throw. Assuming your OCV levels are under control and the bricks have rational values, the -4 OCV modifier for throwing a person (to say nothing of the grab modifiers to make the first attack) will contain the issue of and by itself

 

Just about the last superhero campaign I'd ever want to run in is Long's.

[Elbandit]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

Thanks for the quick responses!

 

I will just continue allowing the heroes to toss goons into each other. It seemed to work well for the most part.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

You can grab and throw someone as a single attack action to cause damage to that person: throwing them into the ground or a wall or whatever doesn't really require an attack action (although you may want to roll one to see exactly where they hit, if it is important).

 

Grabbing someone and throwing them precisely enough to hit another character DOES require a second attack action. You could use sweep, but I'd say you grab on one phase and bowl on the next in most cases. Frankly, making this too easy is going to make battles silly.

 

The other option you have is lining up your KB: I'd make someone declare if they are trying to target someone with potential KB then, in effect, treat that as a sweep: not so bad as it isn't quite such a 'sure thing'.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

You can grab and throw someone as a single attack action to cause damage to that person: throwing them into the ground or a wall or whatever doesn't really require an attack action (although you may want to roll one to see exactly where they hit, if it is important).

 

Grabbing someone and throwing them precisely enough to hit another character DOES require a second attack action. You could use sweep, but I'd say you grab on one phase and bowl on the next in most cases. Frankly, making this too easy is going to make battles silly.

 

The other option you have is lining up your KB: I'd make someone declare if they are trying to target someone with potential KB then, in effect, treat that as a sweep: not so bad as it isn't quite such a 'sure thing'.

 

Lining up the KB is already part of the rules, and doesn't require an extra action. You can actually use a single attack to (potentially) damage two targets, taking no CV penalty. All you do to roll to hit the second character is make a normal OCV versus DCV attack roll, you just don't get to use CSLs.

 

It's the same rule I use for throwing someone into someone else, only I account for the aerodynamics of the thrown object (characters are typically -4, unless for some reason they are cooperative).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

I'm slowly thinking the FAQ should be scrapped and replaced by a general consensis of what the players actually do in their games' date=' kinda like it was when 5E was written. And for those parts where their isn't a general consensis, just leave it up to us players, like normal, and let each of us do it our own way.[/quote']

Just about the last superhero campaign I'd ever want to run in is Long's.

Agreed. 5E rules! Boy, are we going to get it. Steve may just decide to run rampant with the system just to spite us!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

I'm slowly thinking the FAQ should be scrapped and replaced by a general consensis of what the players actually do in their games' date=' kinda like it was when 5E was written. And for those parts where their isn't a general consensis, just leave it up to us players, like normal, and let each of us do it our own way.[/quote']

 

Umm...you don't do this anyway? Heck, I do. I do what I want with the system. It became mine the moment I bought it from the store didn't it?

 

I generaly use these message boards for ideas on how to do stuff easily or to more accurately model something I'm designing. Why would you need "approval" for a specific mechanic or method from anyone except your GM?

 

I say ignore the FAQ and do what works best for you and your group..

 

Thats the golden rule in any RPG system.

[Fox1]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

Agreed. 5E rules! Boy' date=' are we going to get it. Steve may just decide to run rampant with the system just to spite us! [/quote']

 

You mean he hasn't yet?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

Umm...you don't do this anyway? Heck, I do. I do what I want with the system. It became mine the moment I bought it from the store didn't it?

 

I generaly use these message boards for ideas on how to do stuff easily or to more accurately model something I'm designing. Why would you need "approval" for a specific mechanic or method from anyone except your GM?

 

I say ignore the FAQ and do what works best for you and your group..

 

Thats the golden rule in any RPG system.

Er, I would tend to agree. The problem is that the FAQs are being completely integrated into the core system. I don't like how the system starts trying to nail down absolutely everything where common sense could substitute, and where things could very well differ between people in a manner that is actually beneficial to the system (mostly due to flexibility).

 

Now that's not to say that I won't ignore things even from the core system, but the more complicated it becomes, the more I decide I need to throw out, the more convoluted I feel the basic system is becoming for these stupid exceptions, the less attractive such a prospect feels. Such unnecessary and cumbersome additions just make me want to give up on Hero, and I don't like that feeling!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

This is great. What happens if I just want to make a hole in the ground? Do I have to wait' date=' so I an "aim" at the ground? My intent is to do damage to the ground, which seems to be the difference between a grab/throw and grab/throw at someone. I'm slowly thinking the FAQ should be scrapped and replaced by a general consensis of what the players actually do in their games, kinda like it was when 5E was written. And for those parts where their isn't a general consensis, just leave it up to us players, like normal, and let each of us do it our own way.[/quote']

 

Actually, this is one of the few times I agree with this. Basic tenent of Hero... attack action ends your move.

 

Heck, I've always struggled with grab and squeeze. (Allowed it, but struggled) as that seemed like two actions to me. Not that it was unrealistic to grab and squeeze in one action... but that it violated the basic rule balance. (On top of that, giving STR one more thing that it can do that other powers can't... for the lowest cost possible in the game.)

 

What is the big deal with using two action to do... well... two actions? The whole "mooks have different rules than important characters" is a crap idea, IMO. If you can do it to a mook, you can do it to a named villain... a maneuver is a maneuver.

 

Putting that piece of illogic aside, why can't you just grab and squeeze. Next action, aim and throw. Makes sense to me. Same with hitting the ground.

 

It is no more illogical to say I have to use two actions to grab and throw than it is to say I need to use two actions to punch twice, or even three time in a second or two.

 

Again, I'm not arguing from a "realistic" POV, but from the "consistency within the game rules" POV.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

You can grab and throw someone as a single attack action to cause damage to that person: throwing them into the ground or a wall or whatever doesn't really require an attack action (although you may want to roll one to see exactly where they hit, if it is important).

 

Grabbing someone and throwing them precisely enough to hit another character DOES require a second attack action. You could use sweep, but I'd say you grab on one phase and bowl on the next in most cases. Frankly, making this too easy is going to make battles silly.

 

What if you grab and throw a tractor-trailer or another character that has growth? Do you get an AE bonus?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

What if you grab and throw a tractor-trailer or another character that has growth? Do you get an AE bonus?

 

A matter of personal taste. I am inclined to say 'no', or rather, 'Yes, but...': adding ranged and AE to strength for 'free' is powerful medicine. The approach that has been recommended to me (and which I now adopt) is to treat the attack, in effect, as a non-selective AE attack but with a bonus based on the object's size - the same as the OCV bonus for firing at a big object (5ER page 375).

 

Still a darn useful tactic, but not quite so potentially abusive.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

A matter of personal taste. I am inclined to say 'no', or rather, 'Yes, but...': adding ranged and AE to strength for 'free' is powerful medicine. The approach that has been recommended to me (and which I now adopt) is to treat the attack, in effect, as a non-selective AE attack but with a bonus based on the object's size - the same as the OCV bonus for firing at a big object (5ER page 375).

 

Still a darn useful tactic, but not quite so potentially abusive.

 

(Assuming a big truck can reach 18m and 36,000kg)

 

Then a Mac Truck + Trailer would give the thrower +6 OCV due to size but would garner the disadvantages of unballance/unaerodynamic at -4.

 

So the total (range mods not included) would be a +2 to hit the hex? Or a +2 to hit the targets DCV?

 

Then, due to the size and length of the truck (and assuming it stops dead and doesn't skid to a stop) you would:

 

1 - If the attack is successful - Assume the truck hit center mass in the hex that was being attacked and the Roll a d6 to determine the lay of the truck (allowing the truck to hit similar to AE Line for 9 hexes)?

2 - If the attack was unsuccessful - roll a d6 for scatter - then proceed to #1?

 

 

All of this for STR damage (up to but not beyond the BODY of the object thrown) at range?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

Er' date=' I would tend to agree. The problem is that the FAQs are being completely integrated into the core system. I don't like how the system starts trying to nail down absolutely everything where common sense could substitute, and where things could very well differ between people in a manner that is actually beneficial to the system (mostly due to flexibility).[/quote']

 

This is a bit of a "stumbling block" isn't it.

 

Now that's not to say that I won't ignore things even from the core system, but the more complicated it becomes, the more I decide I need to throw out, the more convoluted I feel the basic system is becoming for these stupid exceptions, the less attractive such a prospect feels. Such unnecessary and cumbersome additions just make me want to give up on Hero, and I don't like that feeling!

 

This is why I have yet to purchase the Revised Edition. I don't need it! The core rules in the 5E works just fine for me. I don't need all the clarifications, rules additions and system juggling in the latest edition. I pretty much worked out how most of that stuff worked in the 4th edition days and very little has changed for me since the release of FREd. Anything in the latest editions that clashes with my playing style gets ignored. Sure it can cause confusion when making posts (as my opinions and suggestions will oftentimes contradict the latest edition) but I warn people of my prediliction for the original version when such problems occur.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

This is why I have yet to purchase the Revised Edition. I don't need it! The core rules in the 5E works just fine for me. I don't need all the clarifications' date=' rules additions and system juggling in the latest edition. I pretty much worked out how most of that stuff worked in the 4th edition days and very little has changed for me since the release of FREd. Anything in the latest editions that clashes with my playing style gets ignored. Sure it can cause confusion when making posts (as my opinions and suggestions will oftentimes contradict the latest edition) but I warn people of my prediliction for the original version when such problems occur.[/quote']

Yeah. Same here. The real question is: will we be forgoing editions from here on out? I sure hope not, but I don't have much confidence the way things have been going....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

Putting that piece of illogic aside, why can't you just grab and squeeze. Next action, aim and throw. Makes sense to me. Same with hitting the ground.

 

It is no more illogical to say I have to use two actions to grab and throw than it is to say I need to use two actions to punch twice, or even three time in a second or two.

 

Again, I'm not arguing from a "realistic" POV, but from the "consistency within the game rules" POV.

Same with hitting the ground? Why? If you Grab and Throw, you do your Str in damage. Once. You do throwing damage instead of squeezing damage. The bonus to squeezing is that you can continue to do damage without making attack rolls (although you do need to keep them from breaking out). The bonus to throwing is that you can move your opponent (and/or possibly hit other targets with the throw). I don't see that throwing is much better or worse than squeezing.

[Vondy]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

This is a bit of a "stumbling block" isn't it.

 

It is a little bit too much official direction*, isn't it?

 

*meddling

 

At the same time, 5ER isn't that bad, and FRED got me used to ignoring parts of the text I don't agree with.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Hurling Agents into other Agents

 

Same with hitting the ground? Why? If you Grab and Throw' date=' you do your Str in damage. Once. You do throwing damage [i']instead[/i] of squeezing damage. The bonus to squeezing is that you can continue to do damage without making attack rolls (although you do need to keep them from breaking out). The bonus to throwing is that you can move your opponent (and/or possibly hit other targets with the throw). I don't see that throwing is much better or worse than squeezing.

 

I agree, if you accept that grabbing and squeezing is ok... which as I stated above, I feel is really NOT in light of the "attack action ends your phase" ruling. It is, once again, STR getting more than any other attack in the game, for less (in this case NO) points.

 

Illogic aside, what you've just pointed out is that certain maneuvers are highly unbalanced compared to each other. This comes from the fact that clearly some rulings (long before Steve Long) were made out of the "of course it makes sense you can do that" line of thought (grab and squeeze) where others were made from a game balance line of thought (attack action ends phase) and they conflict (poor game design) but have both been around so long they are both accepted parts of the system. Thus you have "grabbing and squeezing" is a drastically more effective/efficient mode of attack than grabbing and throwing (because of conflicting ruling precedent) and thus we have threads like this.

 

One more thing that should be re-evaluated if there were truly a 6th edition that tried to streamline and balance the game from a root cause concept. And again... one more thing that can be traced back (in part) to STR being way undercosted.