DEX: and the Marvel Universe

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Then change game systems.

I don't know if this is what you mean to convey but the way this statement reads to me is "I (bblackmoor) get to decide what the proper way to play Champions is and, if you don't play it my way, you should play another game." The problem with that besides the obvious "to each his own" remark is that the game, in published form, has never followed your specs for character design. Look at Darren Watt's post or look at earlier editions.

 

If you want to say you play the game the way it should be played then say that. If you are going to say that other people shouldn't play the game if they don't play their game, you presume too much.

 

Of course, no explanation of why Cap should have a 13- to a Normal's 11- has been presented which means I'm pretty much not persuaded by the "then change game systems" remark.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Champions have been sold to power gamers as part of its market for 24 years now. Why would one expect it to change?

 

Silly is still silly, no matter how long it has been done.

That's not persuasive. Labels without rationale don't mean anything.

 

Why is it power gaming?

What is wrong with power gaming?

Why is it silly?

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Who knows. Hopefully he's got it all tweaked out to his personal tastes in his game. I'm just not gonna worry about it' date=' personally.[/quote'] Maybe his perceptions are affected by playing Hero at New World or GHQ at one point or another?

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Whilst the difference between 11- and 13- might not seem like much, you have to remember that it increases the odds of success by 21.3%, which is fairly substantial.

 

My own opinion is that most normal humans range from 10-20 DEX, but that normals with exceptional training can go as high as 30, even the best athletes might only approach 21 or so... maybe as high as 24, but we all know that no matter how much an athlete trains it doesn't provide him with the same level of DEX that someone like Nightwing has, after all, jumping off of roof-tops is the best form of excercise.

 

If you give Cap a 25 DEX (and I'm not saying I would) then a no modifier DEX roll comes out as succeeding 9 times out of ten, compared to a normal persons 6 times out of ten. That seems not bad to me. It gets better when performing difficult tasks, a -3 modifier means the normal fails 3 times in 4, whilst Cap can still take confidence in his 6 times in 10 record of success.

Cap's chance of success in a dexterity maneuver with no modifiers should be better than 21.3% over a normal person's dexterity. That's what is wrong with 13-.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Way to go, Shaun.

 

Besides which, I don't know many people that can deadlift 1600 kg.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I don't know if this is what you mean to convey but the way this statement reads to me is "I (bblackmoor) get to decide what the proper way to play Champions is ...

 

Oh, for pete's sake. Okay, I'll spell it out.

 

Hero System ties base skill rolls to characteristics.

Hero System defines a typical human's stats as 8-12, give or take.

Hero System defines superhuman non-powered feats as requiring stats in excess of 20.

In Hero System, if someone with relatively normal human stats wants to consistently succeed at a difficult task, under stress, they buy up the skill roll or they buy levels.

 

That's the game system. Deal with it. Pull the stick out of your butt while you're at it. You took a tongue-in-cheek comment, accompanied by a smiley, and which any experienced Hero System gamer would know exactly what it meant, and chose to interpret it in the most offensive way possible. You need to relax a little bit. It's a friggin' game, AgentX.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Way to go, Shaun.

 

Besides which, I don't know many people that can deadlift 1600 kg.

How many people do you know who have radar sense after an accident with radioactive sludge or people given an experimental serum to place them at the pinnacle of human physical potential or billionaires obsessed with justice who have fanatically trained around the world to fight crime and is a world-class scientist/detective/martial artist/pilot?

 

Batman is not superhuman but he does stuff in comic books that I've never heard of a real person doing in the real world. If you are building your benchmarks for what is humanly possible on the real world then you are absolutely in disagreement with almost every supers comic book out there.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Dude, anyone that can deadlift 1600 kg is superhuman. Period.

 

addendum

 

The benchmarks for other stats are not as easily measured, but the scale is the same. That's one of the fundamental premises of the game system.

[Powerhouse]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

"I placed in bold the assumption that 20 is the maximum for a human in dexterity because that assumption is wrong. Normal Characteristic Maxima does not define the peak before a characteristic should be defined as superhuman. It defines a threshold for low-power games where a character's stats become so exceptional that they need to pay more points for them. "

 

I will agree to disagree in that in the end it really depends upon how you define your campaign and its limits. An heroic level campaign with powers would simply mean that 20 is pretty much the max with anything above it being superhuman (or virtually superhuman). It varies by campaign.

 

"The official benchmarks place superhuman at 31 or more for dexterity. I've quoted from the books before and I can if someone makes me but I really think they should just look up the benchmarks for themselves."

 

These are suggestions only.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Oh, for pete's sake. Okay, I'll spell it out.

 

Hero System ties base skill rolls to characteristics.

Hero System defines a typical human's stats as 8-12, give or take.

Hero System defines superhuman non-powered feats as requiring stats in excess of 20.

In Hero System, if someone with relatively normal human stats wants to consistently succeed at a difficult task, under stress, they buy up the skill roll or they buy levels.

A 15 or less is superhuman?

 

That's the game system. Deal with it. Pull the stick out of your butt while you're at it. You took a tongue-in-cheek comment' date=' accompanied by a smiley, and which any experienced Hero System gamer would know exactly what it meant, and chose to interpret it in the most offensive way possible. You need to relax a little bit. It's a friggin' [b']game[/b], AgentX.

It's not the game system. It's your take on the game system that isn't particularly well-supported by published characters.

 

As to the tongue-in-cheek comment, it was out of place.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

"I placed in bold the assumption that 20 is the maximum for a human in dexterity because that assumption is wrong. Normal Characteristic Maxima does not define the peak before a characteristic should be defined as superhuman. It defines a threshold for low-power games where a character's stats become so exceptional that they need to pay more points for them. "

 

I will agree to disagree in that in the end it really depends upon how you define your campaign and its limits. An heroic level campaign with powers would simply mean that 20 is pretty much the max with anything above it being superhuman (or virtually superhuman). It varies by campaign.

 

"The official benchmarks place superhuman at 31 or more for dexterity. I've quoted from the books before and I can if someone makes me but I really think they should just look up the benchmarks for themselves."

 

These are suggestions only.

Suggestions that are used for the character design of published characters. Suggestions that should be referenced when discussing where you would place a character's stats. IOW, if you're using "house rules" you should clue everyone in that you are. It helps because otherwise it's hard for everybody to understand each other.

 

It's also important to know that the rules don't intend for you to interpret Normal Characteristic Maxima as the upper limit for Human Potential.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Dude' date=' anyone that can deadlift 1600 kg [b']is[/b] superhuman. Period.

 

No. They would be superhuman in the real world. (Although I know some who would argue with that; I really don't think they saw someone pick up a truck).

 

In a game with a different definition of superhuman (DCU, some forms of fantasy, etc.), they aren't.

 

You may not like that, and Hero IS infinitely customizable so you can play games where Superhuman is based purely on real world standards within it, but you also have the option to not do so.

 

And the option to not do so is the one they chose as the default for the CU.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

No offense' date=' but that's just dumb. By any reasonable benchmark, anything past low 20s is superhuman.[/quote']

 

Superheroic and Fantastic fiction use ridiculous benchmarks. Deal with it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

A 15 or less is superhuman?

 

A 15 or less base characteristic roll? In Hero System, yes: it's superhuman and then some. That's not a matter of personal preference: that's just how the game system works.

 

As to the tongue-in-cheek comment' date=' it was out of place.[/quote']

 

Okee-doke. I won't be reading this thread anymore, then. Have fun being humorless and judgemental.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Then change game systems.

you could always play Heroes Unlimited. They don't allow a dex over 30.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Champions have been sold to power gamers as part of its market for 24 years now. Why would one expect it to change?

 

Silly is still silly, no matter how long it has been done.

Dumb is dumb no matter how many big words you use.

 

 

The game has been at this level since it's inception Ogre had an 18 dex in 2nd edition Crusader a 26.

The stats haven't crept up over the years. It's too bad that bothers you guys so much.

But hey, you can play any way you like so why do you always argue about it?

 

 

 

By the way the "you" I am referring to is not necessarily Fox1, he's just the post I quoted. And I should also point out the "Dumb" comment was more of the Silly vs Dumb comments that I was making with BBlackmoore. Again, I don't think anyone here is dumb.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

A 15 or less base characteristic roll? In Hero System, yes: it's superhuman and then some. That's not a matter of personal preference: that's just how the game system works.

 

 

 

Okee-doke. I won't be reading this thread anymore, then. Have fun being humorless and judgemental.

If you check page 29 of the original 5th Edition Hero Systems Rulebook you will see that they place rolls of 20- or greater as being in "the realm of superheroes, gods, heroes of myth, and supergeniuses."

 

A 15- is described as "very skilled", a "master with the skill" and that "easy tasks are a breeze".

 

I would suggest that Captain America is so dextrous that easy acrobatic maneuvers are a breeze whether he used any of his training or not.

[Superskrull]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

you could always play Heroes Unlimited. They don't allow a dex over 30.

 

My inner rules geek says you are wrong. You can have a higher than 30 Dex (Physical Prowess), you just can't get any higher bonuses to Strike, Parry or Dodge from it. You do get Initiative bonuses, though. The absolute max is 50.

[Ndreare]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Actualy in heroes unlimited the max Physical Prowess is 45 which is +8 Strike parry & dodge with +5 initiative.

 

So you know & knowing is half the battle.

 

50 was the Max PE number and the Max PS number if it is not of a supernatural/powered nature.

[Darren Watts]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I think the only problem with the CU chart is that there are no Superhuman dexterity characters in the mainstream CU. If no one has above 30 then Superhuman is really a meaningless and confusing category. For that reason alone I would have made the cut-off for Legendary at 25. That way you can see there is something special about the 26+ dexterity characters. Of course I wouldn't mind seeing some over 30 dex characters in the game.

 

Well, like I said, Charm's in the CU and has a 35. Several other GC characters top 30- Slug 3k is a 37 using all his stuff, Maraud a 33. A few baddies in CKC are at 30- Photon and Zephyr, frex. My manuscript for CWW I'm working on today includes a couple more- the Living Sphinx is a 32, Taipan a 30.

 

You're right, though- for the most part the CU lacks analogues to super-dexy Spider-Man types, at least to date. Seriously impressive agility and reflexes tends, I think, to be a trait of more heroes than villains in the comics, with a few notable exceptions. As we get to populating the CU with more big-league heroes you may see a few more. dw

[Ura-Maru]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

There’s no need to get unpleasant . . . you’re both right.

 

If 20 really is supposed to be the equivalent of an Olympic class gymnast, only characters who are actually as agile as Olympic class gymnasts should have it. Which means pretty much everyone who’s not a pure martial artist or speedster should be below 18. Which is obviously not the way most superheroic games go.

 

In a quick check of Champions and CK&C, there are 13 characters with Dex under 20.

 

Icicle(18), Warmonger(18), Psimon(18), Hypnos(18), Medusa(16), Mindslayer(19), Torment(18), Blackstar(18), Armadillo(18), Brainchild(18), Cybermind(15!!!), Grond(18), Mechassassin (18)

 

Five of them are members of Psi. Two characters, total, below Dex 18. (WITCHCRAFT has a Dex of 20. Admittedly, this is pretty low on the ‘problems with Witchcraft's build’ list, but it’s hard to claim that 18-20’s the level of an Olympic gymnast when the bookworm types are above it.

 

On the other hand, Agent X is right as well. Enforced NCM isn’t fair in superhero games, it’s punishing people for not including ‘body enhancement’ somewhere in their origin. Stats are just plain cheaper than buying most abilities through skill levels.

 

It also pretty much insures that the characters who should have the highest dexs (martial artists, who usually have no official ‘powers’) are the least likely to actually have them.

 

Maybe NCM should be renamed. Or maybe heroic and superheroic games need different stat scales. I don’t really like that idea, but in practice that’s the way it seems to work out. Fixing the lifting table might help too.

 

Also, keep in mind, in comics, actual superhuman agility is a pretty rare power. “Trained to the peak of human development,†sure. Every ninja has that. But superhuman agility, as a POWER? Spiderman, of course, and . . .

 

well, that’s pretty much it. Longshot? Beast? Deathstroke, maybe? (I never read much DC)

 

Martial artists are hard to rank. Everyone seems to be the quickest of the quick when they’re the good guys . . . and everyone seemed to attain grand mastery of the martial arts simultaneously near the end of the bronze age.

 

 

So, anyway, with all the hedging out of the way.

 

High Superhuman: Spiderman (~35)

Superhuman: Longshot? Beast? (~32)

High end, ‘quick,’ martial artist: Shang Chi, Daredevil, Electra? (~29)

High end martial artist: Captain America*, Wolverine**, maybe Sabertooth (~26)

Martial artist: Nightcrawler, Iron Fist, Post-Ninja Psylocke, maybe Black Cat (~23)

High end Athletic: Nick Fury, Nomad, USAgent, Silver Sable (~20) (Ninjas)

‘Professional’ Athletic: Punisher, Hawkeye, Thor (~17)

Athletic: Colossus, Cyclops. Most brick or energy projector types. (~14)

High Average: Pre-Ninja Psylocke, Doctor Strange. Most mentalists without other powers. (~11) (average young adult in good shape)

Average: The Leader, JJ Jameson, Blob, Professor X (~8) (average adult)

Clumsy: Aunt May, Mojo (~5)

How Does He Dress Himself: Kree Supreme Intelligence? (~2)

 

Crap. Now I’m going to have to write out a scale for EVERY stat . . .

 

*Yeah, I know Cap’s supposed to be ‘the peak of human ability,’ but he’s a pretty beefy guy. And you just don’t see him kicking two bad guys and punching a third while balancing on one hand that often)

 

** Wolverine’s dex goes up in direct proportion to how kewl the writers think he is. This is true for everyone, but Wolvie seems particularly vulnerable to it.

 

Gambits not on the list because his skills and powers make no sense. Put him anywhere above 17 and you’re right.

 

 

Now, the problem is that using this kind of table makes your 150 point Ninja or Fantasy Hero rogue characters look pretty slow by comparison. If you assume 30 is ‘peak human development’ than talented Heroic characters suddenly can’t fit under 200 points anymore. I suppose we could cut out the High End Athletic and maybe the ‘quick’ martial artist slots and knock the ‘superhuman’ barrier to 25 or 26, but that’d require rewriting pretty much all the existing champs material.

 

Casualplayer: But if people admit Dex is too cheap, then they’d HAVE to admit that Strength is even more too cheap. And the lines are too clearly drawn in THAT argument for anyone to back down now.

 

I’ve cut the prices of skill levels in some games I’ve run in the past, that seemed to help a lot in keeping the variance of Dex scores up.

 

---

“Faster than me. Why are ALL the spandexers faster than me?â€

[shaunclinton]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Hmmm, okay! Well, I don't want to get toooo flamed, so the following is my opinion only, but I hope it'll make sense to some people and might be a good alternative as it's worked for me for a long time.

 

Personally I think something which should be taken into account (and I've mentioned it elsewhere) in this debate is Active Points costs.

 

To me this makes the most sense in terms of defining 'Superhuman' characteristic levels.

 

So in this respect I consider all 'normal' (excluding Batman, Nightwing, Punisher, etc. I mean really normal) characteristics to be equivalent up to a characteristic value of 20.

 

Thus a DEX 20 character is at the same level of agility as a STR 20 character is of strength. So on and so forth.

 

However beyond the 20 mark I look at the Active Point cost to determine 'equivalence' (only the AP's above 20 though.)

 

So STR 30 (Char 20 + 10 APs) is equivalently 'super' to CON 25 (Char 20 + 10 APs), which is in turn identically 'super' to DEX 23.33 (You get it by now! Though I usually go with 24 DEX here.)

 

It's by no means completely robust or the be all and end all, but it works for me and I find it especially useful for conversions from other systems where direct translation doesn't always work very well.

 

For example in Shadowrun baseline human stats run 1-6 with 9 absolute limit (which handily looks a lot like champs 20/30 limits) but with augmentation they can go much higher. So at first it seems that multiplying stats by 3.33 works fairly well. And it does for normal joes...

 

SR Human Str 6, Quickness 6 becomes HERO Human STR 20, DEX 20

 

However augmented boy doesn't come over so well...

 

SR AugHuman Str 15, Quickness 15 becomes HERO AugHuman STR 50, DEX 50

 

In other words a monstrosity. If we use my system here we take the 20 away from the DEX and convert it into APs, 30 of them, which translates to 10 DEX on top of the 20, which gives us the far more reasonable...

 

HERO AugHuman STR 50, DEX 30

 

Anyway, I hope that you found something useful in that ramble! That's the way I've always looked at it... of course it doesn't stop me from letting 'normal' humans exceed the limits and go into superhuman territory, as long as it makes sense for the character. For example, I wouldn't limit Nightwing to DEX 24, as that would just mean that the player would spend a fortune on CSLs, DEX Based Skill Levels, Lightning Reflexes and the like all to simulate the character as portrayed in the comics - the mechanic is identical for all intents and purposes if I let him have a superhuman DEX, so I'm happy with that.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Beast is superhuman. Nightcrawler is superhuman. Longshot is superhuman. Deathstroke is superhuman.

[shaunclinton]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Another thing I'd like to say is that I think Cap probably has a few levels with his Acrobatics. He does seem fairly athletic but I don't think it's a product of natural ability and nothing else.

 

Most characters in comics who are particularly athletic seem to come by it through 'experience' and 'training' (two of comic-doms most ridiculous conventions!) which grant them such abilities. Characters who have natural superhuman athletic capabilities are actually fairly rare - Spider-man, Beast and a few others. I'd personally put Cap at around DEX 24 and I'd make sure he has enough skill levels to put Acrobatics up to around 16- or so.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I don't think in terms of active points. I think in terms of rolls and the amount of differentiation that I would like to see in a game. I really don't want to play in a supers game that lumps most characters in three groups. I think there should be more differentiation when moving from Aunt May to Jimmy Olsen to Booster Gold to Nick Fury to Blue Beetle to Iron Fist to Batman, Daredevil, or Captain America to Beast or Nigthcrawler to Deathstroke to Spiderman.