DEX: and the Marvel Universe

[shaunclinton]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

On the subject of cheap characteristics, CON and STR are gloriously cheap!

 

Not to mention that for 10 points on +10 STR you get...

 

+2 PD (2 Points)

+2 REC (4 Points)

+5 STUN (5 Points)

 

Or for your 20 points on +10 CON you get...

 

+2 ED (2 Points)

+2 REC (4 Points)

+20 END (10 Points)

+5 STUN (5 Points)

 

In both cases you're a point better off, which whilst good for players tends to encourage ridiculous CON and STR scores to an extent, especially considering that if you were going to buy up the figured stats anyway you're getting the CON or STR for free!!!

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Another thing I'd like to say is that I think Cap probably has a few levels with his Acrobatics. He does seem fairly athletic but I don't think it's a product of natural ability and nothing else.

 

Most characters in comics who are particularly athletic seem to come by it through 'experience' and 'training' (two of comic-doms most ridiculous conventions!) which grant them such abilities. Characters who have natural superhuman athletic capabilities are actually fairly rare - Spider-man, Beast and a few others. I'd personally put Cap at around DEX 24 and I'd make sure he has enough skill levels to put Acrobatics up to around 16- or so.

I'd put him at 30 if I was using the benchmarks in the Champions Genre Book and I'd give him some levels. I imagine if Captain America was hit by the Amnesio-Ray and lost all of his memory, including his training, he would still have maximum human potential dexterity which is 30 in the Champions Genre Book and I like that breakpoint. It provides a character with 4 points of deviation from norm and a nearly certain chance to hit a normal human and to avoid attacks from the normal human barring modifiers.

[lemming]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Personally I dislike a short range of characteristics. As Agent X said, compression.

I've been in games with 8-75 dex characters. A bit overboard, but I'm happy with the dex range going up to 38.

But then, I'm going for fun, not realism or even modeling comic books exactly.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

On the subject of cheap characteristics, CON and STR are gloriously cheap!

 

Not to mention that for 10 points on +10 STR you get...

 

+2 PD (2 Points)

+2 REC (4 Points)

+5 STUN (5 Points)

 

Or for your 20 points on +10 CON you get...

 

+2 ED (2 Points)

+2 REC (4 Points)

+20 END (10 Points)

+5 STUN (5 Points)

 

In both cases you're a point better off, which whilst good for players tends to encourage ridiculous CON and STR scores to an extent, especially considering that if you were going to buy up the figured stats anyway you're getting the CON or STR for free!!!

We've gone down this road before and it turns out most of the characteristics are a great buy.

 

Speaking of great buys, check out flight. 10 points of flight and you can fly pretty slow but you can avoid all that falling damage. Now that's a bargain.

[shaunclinton]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Perhaps you disagree Agent X, but that's where I feel skills come into it. Acrobatic ability involves training, no olympic gymnast no matter how dextrous or graceful can simply jump in and do well, they need practice and lots of it.

 

The DEX stat merely gives the skill a starting point, anyone who is noted for their Acrobatic ability (Spidey, Beast, Nightwing, Daredevil) is going to have plenty of levels which will increase their skill. Even a DEX 40 Spidey (which I don't think any of us would consider right) would only have 17- skill roll. That doesn't tie up well with the number of times I've seen him attempt things that I would consider beyond Sheer Folly (-5) in Poor Conditions (-5) and pull it off with ease, so he's probably operating on Acrobatics 24- or something like that. Which is just ridiculous, but also the way he's depicted.

 

Going on from there you can work out a reasonable distribution for everyone else all the way from Jimmy Olsen with his 8- Familiarity (Aunt May doesn't have Acrobatics) to Spidey on 24-, that's a fairly good range.

[shaunclinton]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Characteristics are pretty good, much better value for money IMO than most powers, well, Damage Reduction aside!

 

The one aspect I always felt short changed on was mental characteristics, in particular EGO is extremely expensive considering what it does. On the other hand, you don't want to be the guy who scrimped on it when the mentallist shows up.

 

Actually, change that from Mental Characteristics to just EGO; PRE and INT are phenomenal buys!!!

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Perhaps you disagree Agent X, but that's where I feel skills come into it. Acrobatic ability involves training, no olympic gymnast no matter how dextrous or graceful can simply jump in and do well, they need practice and lots of it.

 

The DEX stat merely gives the skill a starting point, anyone who is noted for their Acrobatic ability (Spidey, Beast, Nightwing, Daredevil) is going to have plenty of levels which will increase their skill. Even a DEX 40 Spidey (which I don't think any of us would consider right) would only have 17- skill roll. That doesn't tie up well with the number of times I've seen him attempt things that I would consider beyond Sheer Folly (-5) in Poor Conditions (-5) and pull it off with ease, so he's probably operating on Acrobatics 24- or something like that. Which is just ridiculous, but also the way he's depicted.

 

Going on from there you can work out a reasonable distribution for everyone else all the way from Jimmy Olsen with his 8- Familiarity (Aunt May doesn't have Acrobatics) to Spidey on 24-, that's a fairly good range.

I wouldn't narrow the discussion to simply acrobatics. It's bigger than that. It's about any dex roll, OCV, DCV, reaction time, and the like.

 

And I would put Spidey at a Dexterity of somewhere between 35 and 39.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Characteristics are pretty good, much better value for money IMO than most powers, well, Damage Reduction aside!

 

The one aspect I always felt short changed on was mental characteristics, in particular EGO is extremely expensive considering what it does. On the other hand, you don't want to be the guy who scrimped on it when the mentallist shows up.

 

Actually, change that from Mental Characteristics to just EGO; PRE and INT are phenomenal buys!!!

I think Ego is just fine. If it was any cheaper then it would encourage players to buy ego up to be just a tad too resistant to all those mental powers.

[Trebuchet]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Perhaps you disagree Agent X, but that's where I feel skills come into it. Acrobatic ability involves training, no olympic gymnast no matter how dextrous or graceful can simply jump in and do well, they need practice and lots of it.

 

The DEX stat merely gives the skill a starting point, anyone who is noted for their Acrobatic ability (Spidey, Beast, Nightwing, Daredevil) is going to have plenty of levels which will increase their skill. Even a DEX 40 Spidey (which I don't think any of us would consider right) would only have 17- skill roll. That doesn't tie up well with the number of times I've seen him attempt things that I would consider beyond Sheer Folly (-5) in Poor Conditions (-5) and pull it off with ease, so he's probably operating on Acrobatics 24- or something like that. Which is just ridiculous, but also the way he's depicted.

 

Going on from there you can work out a reasonable distribution for everyone else all the way from Jimmy Olsen with his 8- Familiarity (Aunt May doesn't have Acrobatics) to Spidey on 24-, that's a fairly good range.

I tend to agree, although there's nothing "only" about a 17- Skill at anything. My own super-gymnast/MA Zl'f has a 22- Acrobatics roll (24- with Overall Levels) for just such "Sheer Folly" situations. I'd rate her as faster and somewhat more agile than Spidey, but far less durable and strong. He'd totally kick her butt in a fight, but he'd still be going "Darn, she's quick!" right up until he hit her and ended their hypothetical fight.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

My inner rules geek says you are wrong. You can have a higher than 30 Dex (Physical Prowess)' date=' you just can't get any higher bonuses to Strike, Parry or Dodge from it. You do get Initiative bonuses, though. The absolute max is 50.[/quote']

Game and Learn! Thanks SS.

 

 

I awlays thought it interesting that Marvel gave it's Speedsters high agilities but the Mayfair DC Heroes gave them average adventurer Dex. They saved the high dexes for Bricks (Superman style) and....Elongated Man and his ilk.

[Trebuchet]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I wouldn't narrow the discussion to simply acrobatics. It's bigger than that. It's about any dex roll, OCV, DCV, reaction time, and the like.

 

And I would put Spidey at a Dexterity of somewhere between 35 and 39.

I've always rated Spider-Man as a SPD 7 or 8 (leaning towards 8); DEX 38. But then I rate Ben Grimm as only SPD 4, DEX 18; plus levels of course. He's a normal athletic test pilot with regard to speed and agility.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I've always rated Spider-Man as a SPD 7 or 8 (leaning towards 8); DEX 38. But then I rate Ben Grimm as only SPD 4' date=' DEX 18; plus levels of course. He's a normal athletic test pilot with regard to speed and agility.[/quote'] I dunno. Ben Grimm was a college football star and I always thought he must have been quite the mean streetfighter to be such a legend on Yancy Street.

[shaunclinton]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Well we're in agreement there then as I'd put him at 36 myself.

 

The 3d6 mechanic has a lot to do with the compression.

 

Another thing that affects it is the presence of Superhumans... if there was more of a difference between value 10 and 20 in a characteristic then the gulf between a superhuman with 60 in the characteristic and the guy who has a 20 would be ridiculous.

 

But those aren't always bad things.

 

The 3d6 gives more consistency, so it's easier to know what you're capable of which is such a boon compared to (for example) D20 where it's super-random.

 

In the comics despite different characters abilities they all boil down to generally being able to interact on a similar (if not level) playing field.

 

If going up to 30 for NCM works for you then that's cool. Personally I'd probably build normal characters as high at times, if not moreso. Just depends on the effect you want to achieve.

 

That is the beauty of the system though!!!

 

I have toyed with alternate skill systems for Champs as it is one of the few areas where I feel the system is quite weak. Fuzion/D20 style skills could work well, I ran a campaign using the New Millenium sourcebooks skillsets for a while but with regular champs rules for everything else. Worked fairly well.

[lemming]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Characteristics are pretty good' date=' much better value for money IMO than most powers, well, Damage Reduction aside![/quote']

Actually Damage reduction is only worthwhile after a certain amount of dice. Most of the time, you're better off with PD&ED to take less damage.

[Narthon]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I dunno. Ben Grimm was a college football star and I always thought he must have been quite the mean streetfighter to be such a legend on Yancy Street.

 

 

I think a speed of 4 and dex of 18, along with a str of 18-20 justifys those. He probably had some combat skill levels to help with the "streetfighting".

[Trebuchet]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I think a speed of 4 and dex of 18' date=' along with a str of 18-20 justifys those. He probably had some combat skill levels to help with the "streetfighting".[/quote']I agree totally. Remember, a Normal has Primary numbers of 8. I suspect those Yancy Street kids probably had STRs of 8 - 13 and DEXs of 10 - 12; plus Grimm probably had either streetfighting "martial arts" or boxing training, which would have made him very formidible compared to the yokels. And I suspect his CON (even now clearly one of the highest in the MU) was probably right up near his STR, which would have made him a very tough opponent to put down in a barroom brawl when he's fighting ordinary men.

 

I suspect his famous battle cry, "It's clobberin' time!," came about long before he became the Thing.

[sinanju]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Whilst the difference between 11- and 13- might not seem like much' date=' you have to remember that it increases the odds of success by 21.3%, which is fairly substantial.[/quote']

 

That pretty much sums up my reasons for wanting to "compress" the stat range. When you're rolling 3d6 to accomplish a task, once you get up to rolls of 16-or-less or better, you've broken the bell curve. It just gets silly after that (I've seen plenty of that in GURPS, for instance).

 

Characters who are supposed to have superhuman abilities based on stats can always buy, you know, powers to simulate those effects with the points they didn't have to pump into raising their DEX to ridiculous levels in an arms race of ever-increasing stats.

 

For the record, _I_ never said anything about powergamers. This is a issue of taste and preferences. Keeping stats fairly low (compared to other groups' characters) works for me.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I think a speed of 4 and dex of 18' date=' along with a str of 18-20 justifys those. He probably had some combat skill levels to help with the "streetfighting".[/quote']

I got the impression that his human stats weren't as good as his Thing stats.

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I got the impression that his human stats weren't as good as his Thing stats.

I thing what they generally say is that he hasn't lost and dexterity or quickness due to his rocky form.

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

After thinking it through here’s my new list of comic character dexterities. The number after the “/†is the value with lightning reflexes. A “*†after the lightning reflexes total indicates that the use of the power costs the character endurance. The groupings are in alphabetical order when two or more characters have the same value.

 

Flash III: 26/40

Silver Surfer: 30/40

Quicksilver: 24/39

Flash I: 21/35

Spider-man: 35

Superman: 25/35*

Captain Marvel: 23/33*

Impulse: 23/33

Nightcrawler: 33

Supergirl: 23/33*

Beast: 32

Batman: 30

Captain American: 30

Black Panther: 29

Daredevil: 28

Nightwing: 28

Green Lantern: 18/27

Ironfist: 27

Orion: 27

Black Canary: 26

Hawkman: 26

Wolverine: 26

Wonder Woman: 26

Cyclops: 25

Troia: 25

Angel: 24

Aquaman: 24

Batgirl: 24

Black Widow: 24

Hawkeye: 24

Ironman: 24

Falcon: 23

Green Arrow: 23

Hawkgirl: 23

Human Torch: 23

Robin: 23

Vision: 22

Cyborg: 21

Martian Manhunter: 21

Mr. Fantastic: 21

Rogue: 21

Thor: 21

Dr. Fate: 20

Elongated Man: 20

Invisible Woman: 20

Storm: 20

Raven: 18

Thing: 18

Hulk: 17

Zatanna: 17

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I thing what they generally say is that he hasn't lost and dexterity or quickness due to his rocky form.

He was able to tag Wolverine in the head in Contest for Champions with one hit. I read an awful lot of Marvel Two in One and got the impression that the other comic book characters had a tendency to very, very much underestimate the Thing's speed until he got down to business.

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

He was able to tag Wolverine in the head in Contest for Champions with one hit. I read an awful lot of Marvel Two in One and got the impression that the other comic book characters had a tendency to very' date=' very much underestimate the Thing's speed until he got down to business.[/quote']

I agree. I just believe that he is a character with several levels and a brawling martial arts package as well. 18 dex, 5 speed, 3-5 offensive maneuvers, and around 4-5 levels. He's tough, but you don't see too many people missing him either.

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I agree. I just believe that he is a character with several levels and a brawling martial arts package as well. 18 dex' date=' 5 speed, 3-5 offensive maneuvers, and around 4-5 levels. He's tough, but you don't see too many people missing him either. [/quote'] I haven't been reading lately. I do remember that, in the 70s, when the Thing wanted to block or dodge, he was very good at it.

[Superskrull]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Have you people forgotten that Ben was the Champion for Unlimited Class Wrestling? He's gotta have some wrestling moves for fighting the Hulk and such.

[Superskrull]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Actualy in heroes unlimited the max Physical Prowess is 45 which is +8 Strike parry & dodge with +5 initiative.

 

So you know & knowing is half the battle.

 

50 was the Max PE number and the Max PS number if it is not of a supernatural/powered nature.

 

I dunno, page 16 of Heroes Unlimited Revised Second Edition says it's a 50 even if you are a superhuman or alien. The PS score has differing caps based on what you are with no top end for the actual superhumans.