How to build this power

[Kyle A.]

I'm looking for a way to build a possesion power. Where you enter a person's body and control it completely. I'm just about ready to create my own power, Body Control.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How to build this power

 

This topic comes up on the boards pretty frequently, and there have been a number of suggestions for how to handle it, both based on "official" published builds and original ideas. Here's a representative sampling of the discussions:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3857

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19400

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23428

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19968

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28354

[Maccabe]

Re: How to build this power

 

I created a character with this power, I wrote it up as;

Mind Control (No Range), Telekinesis (only to animate an object) (No range)

[Doc Samson]

Re: How to build this power

 

I had a player who had Possession as his only power in one of my games, very similar to Jericho from DC. He would just possess one of my villains (or try anyway) every combat. It seemed like work at first, but after awhile I kinda enjoyed it, as he essentially had a different powerset every week, based on what I had the group fighting.

 

The character essentialy gained control (how much was based on his Mind Control roll) of the target, could sense what the target sensed, and (on a good enough Telepathy roll) know the targets thoughts and memories. He could force the target to use skills and powers he learned about through the telepathy (or if he saw the target use them before the possession). As he fully was was absorbed into his target, he left no body behind. We wrote it up like this...

 

Possession

Mind Control telepathic, transdimensional

Limitation: Requires eye contact "the eyes are the window to the soul"

Powers Linked to Mind Control

Extra Dimensional Travel, "the targets mind" (this was alot less awkward than many of the Desolidifications builds we tried)

Telepathy, "the targets thoughts and memories", transdimensional

Clairsentience, "the targets senses", transdimensional

[Hawksmoor]

Re: How to build this power

 

That is a good build. Desolid is clunky since the character is really not desolid and generic Affects Desolid won't work vs Jericho.

 

Repped!

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to build this power

 

For a Jericho-like long-term mind control, one approach is to utilize Transform (target to willing slave) combined with EDM, clairsentience, etc. (like the Mind Control example above).

 

Another approach is EDM usable as an attack; target shunted to a limbo dimension where no time passes + a VPP Multiform to shift into the target's form with your mind instead of the target's. The EDM lasts only as long as you stay in the target's form, and fails if the form you're trying to shift into has more points than your Multiform can handle.

 

The one Jericho effect I've never found a satisfactory build for is the fact his possessed target (unlike, say, Deadman's) can still talk if he's conscious, and Jericho can still move him naturally if he's not.

[Mister E]

Re: How to build this power

 

I really like DocSamson's Transdimentional solution. I think I prefer it to the Bodyjacking power, on pages 151-152 of "USPDB".

[MitchellS]

Re: How to build this power

 

We have been playtesting body control purchased as xd6 mind control, based on dexterity: -1. This works the same as based on constitution only you use dexterity.

 

The entering body part can be simulated a number of ways. The most common are desolidification and extra-dimensional movement but they are both expensive due to all the powers you need to purchase with them [usable while desolid, trans-dimensional, etc.].

 

My personal choice is to use a 20 point adder to desolidification called "Merge." Basically what this adder does is allow you to use desolid to merge with another person and nothing else. You can't pass through walls, etc. You gain the bonus of not needing to buy the affects real world advantage but all attacks can only be used on the merged target. At the same time the victim gets to use their ego in an ego versus ego contest against you. If you just make the roll you suffer xd6 based on the victim's ego/5. If you make the roll by -1 or more you suffer no damage. If you fail the roll you are ejected from the victim's body and are stunned for 1 phase.

[Mister E]

Re: How to build this power

 

The reason I like the Extradimensional version, is because it puts you literally in the victoms mind... a place where, conceiveably, other people could encounter you, and do combat with you. It's a mindscape.

 

As an aside: If you were to turn your physical body into an astral body... would you use Desolidification, or Extra-Dimensional Movement? Maybe if you were using your new astral body to just ghost around in the real world, Desolid is the way to go, but what about enemies with Transdimensional Advantages on their attacks? Should they be able to hit you while you are using Desolid? Aren't you, infact, in the Astral Plane, which is another dimension? How much of "Extra-Dimensional" is just special-effect? This is a question I've been meaning to ask, for a long time.

 

I like the idea of the "Merge" adder for Desolid... but to be honest, it makes me uncomfortable making up rules, even though its part of the game. I will also add that "Bodyjacking" is a pretty crazy power, and I think it should be expensive, as it will probably represent a character's primary super-power.

 

Is this power being used to build Nocturn, from the Exiles?

[MitchellS]

Re: How to build this power

 

I will also add that "Bodyjacking" is a pretty crazy power' date=' and I think it should be expensive, as it will probably represent a character's primary super-power.[/quote']

The problem with Hero is that the "cool" powers are always too expensive. People want to play characters like Jericho or Rogue. Many gamers don't like the idea that in Hero building those characters is too expensive for starting characters when other superhero game systems don't have those drawbacks. Comics have evolved past the point where characters are built with simple powers like energy blast. Hero needs to be able to keep up or it's going to fall completely by the wayside, IMO.

[Watchdog]

Re: How to build this power

 

I looked in my old DC Heroes book (Mayfair edition). They called the power Personality Transfer, and while it wasn't cheap, it was less expensive than the Hero version, based on a percentage of starting points.

 

Add me to the list of those who like Doc's build, though I don't really have a problem with the bodyjack power in USPDB.

 

I do have a question for those with characters in their campaign. If the character has the "no range" limitation, do they also have to touch the character's skin? In other words, is someone like Iron Man immune to the transfer?

[Mister E]

Re: How to build this power

 

The problem with Hero is that the "cool" powers are always too expensive. People want to play characters like Jericho or Rogue. Many gamers don't like the idea that in Hero building those characters is too expensive for starting characters when other superhero game systems don't have those drawbacks. Comics have evolved past the point where characters are built with simple powers like energy blast. Hero needs to be able to keep up or it's going to fall completely by the wayside' date=' IMO.[/quote']You are probably right. Personally, I don't think it's going to be the system that causes HERO to be left behind... I think it's going to be the blandness of the Champions Universe, and the lack of artistic and thematic style and vision, in it books and story-line. HERO needs a real, unified, core inspiration, that isn't, "This is the best game system in history, so convert your characters from all of your other games that exist in cool worlds, but have crappy systems."

 

Do you remember "Deadlands", (or something like that)... the Horror/Western RPG? Man, that was one stinky game system; but they sold books, and lots of them, because the concept was totally smoking hot.

 

On the same note, HERO, not d20, is the perfect game system for "Call of Chthulu". I mean, come on. A level based Call of Chthulu? That's freak'n ridiculous. Have you ever played Call of Chthulu? If you survive more than a handful of adventures, you're some kind of phenom.

 

Star Wars, likewise, was never a level based game... and would have been perfect for a HERO conversion... gone to d20.

 

Conan, and the Hyborian Age... decades of history... dozens of authors... the GURPS past... and it turned to d20.

 

Anyhow... I'm fairly happy with the game... but you are right, the designers need to pull their heads out, or something. Having a book be bullet-proof is not a great selling point for most people. Can you imagine what kind of market power HERO could have, if it came out with something like Planescape? (Gawd I loved Planescape!)

 

Anything! Hell, even "Shadowrun" had a slew of novels written about it. I played Shadowrun all through highschool, back in the early '90's... it rawked in comparison with everything I've seen come out for HERO.

 

Everything HERO comes out with, exists in a vacuum. Even Champions, and that is ridiculous, considering how long Champions has been around... didn't it used to have a comic book?

 

I'm talking "Cultural Chemistry!"

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Sense you mentioned Rogue... is there a published version of her main power? I found "Mimicking" on page 265 of the USPDB, but it seems more like Mimic, than Rogue, un-ironically.

[Mister E]

Re: How to build this power

 

I do have a question for those with characters in their campaign. If the character has the "no range" limitation' date=' do they also have to touch the character's skin? In other words, is someone like Iron Man immune to the transfer?[/quote']No. No Range just means they have to be hit with a melee attack... like other powers that are no range.

 

In order to do the skin contact thing, you could instead make that a Limitation of the attack power. Many NND's also have skin contact as a requirement.

[MitchellS]

Re: How to build this power

 

Add me to the list of those who like Doc's build' date=' though I don't really have a problem with the bodyjack power in USPDB.[/quote']

I don't care for any build which requires 4 powers and a dozen advantages and limitations to make it work. And that's no insult to Doc's build. I don't care for the bodyjacker version either.

 

I do have a question for those with characters in their campaign. If the character has the "no range" limitation, do they also have to touch the character's skin? In other words, is someone like Iron Man immune to the transfer?

No range just means the character must make a melee attack against the character. The version in the USPD also has a limitation saying you must make skin contact, so for that version Ironman would be immune.

[MitchellS]

Re: How to build this power

 

You are probably right. Personally' date=' I don't think it's going to be the system that causes HERO to be left behind... I think it's going to be the blandness of the Champions Universe, and the lack of artistic and thematic style and vision, in it books and story-line.[/quote']

I honestly do think it's the system. The game is just too complex. As I just replied to Watchdog, needing 4 different powers and that many advantages and limitations to represent a single power is sheer folly. The game is too complex for its own good.

 

It funny you mention that CU is bland. It's almost the same universe as Freedom City. Both games use strong homage backgrounds. The difference is that FC is written for color whereas CU is written technically. The CU is too wordy, both in presentation and in character information. Character origins are not what make the CU interesting but far too much of most books seem to be filled with pages of that. The CU needs more cream and less crunch.

 

On the same note, HERO, not d20, is the perfect game system for "Call of Chthulu". I mean, come on. A level based Call of Chthulu? That's freak'n ridiculous. Have you ever played Call of Chthulu? If you survive more than a handful of adventures, you're some kind of phenom.

 

Star Wars, likewise, was never a level based game... and would have been perfect for a HERO conversion... gone to d20.

 

Conan, and the Hyborian Age... decades of history... dozens of authors... the GURPS past... and it turned to d20.

DOJ just can't afford licenses. It'd be great to see some done but it just isn't going to happen right now. Unfortunately 5E, and 5Er, have made the game look even more complex to people rather than simpler. No game is going to be popular with the masses when it has nicknames like bible, encyclopedia, phone book, etc.

 

Everything HERO comes out with, exists in a vacuum. Even Champions, and that is ridiculous, considering how long Champions has been around... didn't it used to have a comic book?

There was a comic book, and the older characters are still in a comic book published by Heroic Publishing. They have just restarted and have a Flare book out and a Giant book coming out soon.

 

Sense you mentioned Rogue... is there a published version of her main power? I found "Mimicking" on page 265 of the USPDB, but it seems more like Mimic, than Rogue, un-ironically.

No, that's the only official thing to have been done, and that only covers the getting-powers aspect of Rogue's character. I think the basic version was somewhere around 225 points. The draining powers would probably be around 200 more points. Rogue is easily a 650 point character, most of which is wrapped up in a power she seldom uses.

[Mister E]

Re: How to build this power

 

I don't care for any build which requires 4 powers and a dozen advantages and limitations to make it work. And that's no insult to Doc's build. I don't care for the bodyjacker version either.

Okay, I've got a new idea... check me out on this:

 

What about impregnating the victom's mind with an astral clone of yours, using Transform xd6 (Target's Spirit into Caster's Spirit). With a Mind Link, you'll have totally access to the victom's actions and memories, via remote control. After an Extra-Dimensional Movement into the victom's mind... you get the whole thing for only 3 powers.

 

Heh?

[MitchellS]

Re: How to build this power

 

Okay, I've got a new idea... check me out on this:

 

What about impregnating the victom's mind with an astral clone of yours, using Transform xd6 (Target's Spirit into Caster's Spirit). With a Mind Link, you'll have totally access to the victom's actions and memories, via remote control. After an Extra-Dimensional Movement into the victom's mind... you get the whole thing for only 3 powers.

 

Heh?

Three powers is still not 2, or 1.

 

My version does it with 2. I'd prefer an "official" possession/body control power that does it in one. Heck, the CU has 2 characters in it [Kapilasa and Bodyjacker] who do it 2 different ways. Good ol' Hero System.

[Watchdog]

Re: How to build this power

 

Another question: If the "bodyjacking" characters are using desolidification as part of the build, they have to choose a fairly common attack that still affects them. What have their choices been?

[MitchellS]

Re: How to build this power

 

Another question: If the "bodyjacking" characters are using desolidification as part of the build' date=' they have to choose a fairly common attack that still affects them. What have their choices been?[/quote']

For the character Bodyjacker it is magic or any attack which affects the possessed body.

[Watchdog]

Re: How to build this power

 

Interesting. There are things about Mitchell's build that I like...wait, that could be interpreted in a way I wouldn't want it to be.

 

I think the "fight for control" and ejection while stunned are very cool. But I have a few problems with it, too.

 

I understand and applaud your desire for simplicity, but the fact remains that the bodysnatching effect is three powers, if you include the access to the target's thoughts (telepathy). So even if we discount dropping the affects physical world advantage, you're basically giving them one power for the greatly reduced price of 20 points with the "merge".

 

I'm also not sure why making the mind control based on DEX should be worth a -1 limitation. The old BBB "mental powers based on CON" was only a -1/2 limitation, and in that case, the target got to subtract either his PD or ED from the attack before applying it to his CON. It doesn't look like the target gets that benefit in the build you're describing.

 

I think I'd be more inclined to make it a 0 limitation. As it stands, for 45 points the attacter will average a +40 effect even against a DEX 35 type character (with an 18d6 attack). That makes it too easy for the point cost, imo. You don't see mentalists with a 9d6 mind control getting a +30 result well over half the time.

 

One could argue that basing it on DEX makes it that much harder for the touch attack to hit the high DEX character in the first place. But with OCV levels only costing 2 pts. for a single attack, it's very cheap to offset that.

 

Again, simplicity is good. But too much simplicity often results in either massive game imbalance and/or severe headaches for the GM and players. For the most extreme example, the original Marvel Superheroes game comes to mind. It didn't get much simpler than that:

 

Player: I shoot my energy beam at her. Hit! Remarkable damage!

 

GM: Okay, she has a Remarkable force field, so no damage.

 

Player: So I'll never, ever be able to hurt her?

 

GM: Nope. If you're really lucky, you might get to stun her.

 

Player: Would her force field drop then?

 

GM: Nope.

 

Player: That sucks!

 

GM: Okay, her attack. She has typical fighting. You have amazing agility, but she'll still hit you half the time since you weren't dodging. (rolls). Yep, hit. She has poor strength, so you take four points of damage. Do you have armor or force field?"

 

Player. ARRGGGHHHHH!!!!

 

A less extreme example would be the Fuzion system, which tried some simplifications. Champions players thumbed their noses at it, and it still didn't appeal to new players.

 

I think there may always be a couple of powers that will be "Awkward fits" for Hero. This bodysnatching one, time control, etc.

 

But simplifying the power too much, or giving it its own name and entry under powers, doesn't mean putting it into play will be simple, either in actual use or in game balance. If that's the price we pay for not having the power descriptions of White Wolf games ("Level 3: Yeah, you can do some really cool things with this now."), then I'll be happy to pay it.

[MitchellS]

Re: How to build this power

 

I understand and applaud your desire for simplicity' date=' but the fact remains that the bodysnatching effect is three powers, if you include the access to the target's thoughts (telepathy).[/quote']

If they want access to the thoughts, then yes it's 3 powers.

 

So even if we discount dropping the affects physical world advantage, you're basically giving them one power for the greatly reduced price of 20 points with the "merge".

Not exactly. All the merge adder does is allow desolid character to go inside of a target's body and be able to attack him without buying the affects physical world advantage. What they lose is the ability to phase through objects when merged because it's not true desolidification. On top of that any attach which hits the victim hits the possessor as well. So I'm basically give an advantage [affects physical world] and two limitations [can't pass through solid and does not protect against outside attacks] and a two disadvantages [susceptability if ego roll is barely made and physical limitation, can be expelled] when merged is being used. All of that costs the player 20 extra points on his desolidification. The adder lets you do it without needing to see all the Hero-speak mumbo-jumbo.

 

I'm also not sure why making the mind control based on DEX should be worth a -1 limitation. The old BBB "mental powers based on CON" was only a -1/2 limitation, and in that case, the target got to subtract either his PD or ED from the attack before applying it to his CON. It doesn't look like the target gets that benefit in the build you're describing.

In 5E [page 120 in 5Er] based on con is a -1 limitation.

 

I think I'd be more inclined to make it a 0 limitation. As it stands, for 45 points the attacter will average a +40 effect even against a DEX 35 type character (with an 18d6 attack). That makes it too easy for the point cost, imo. You don't see mentalists with a 9d6 mind control getting a +30 result well over half the time.

I think your math is off. a 10d6 "body" mind control would be an average of 35 rolled. If the average dex in a champions game is 20-30 a 10d6 attack would range from +10 to +0 of effect. And you're forgetting the need to subtract defenses.

[Watchdog]

Re: How to build this power

 

 

Not exactly. All the merge adder does is allow desolid character to go inside of a target's body and be able to attack him without buying the affects physical world advantage. What they lose is the ability to phase through objects when merged because it's not true desolidification. On top of that any attach which hits the victim hits the possessor as well. So I'm basically give an advantage [affects physical world] and two limitations [can't pass through solid and does not protect against outside attacks] and a two disadvantages [susceptability if ego roll is barely made and physical limitation, can be expelled] when merged is being used. All of that costs the player 20 extra points on his desolidification. The adder lets you do it without needing to see all the Hero-speak mumbo-jumbo.

 

Okay, it helps to see it in the mumbo-jumbo. I didn't realize that the possessor was affected by any attacks that hit the target, whether the attack affected the target or not. With that factored into it, 20 points seems reasonable to me.

 

 

In 5E [page 120 in 5Er] based on con is a -1 limitation.

 

Okay, found it on page 82 of my non revised 5E. In any event, the target still gets to use either his PD or ED against the attack when it's based on CON. If the target doesn't get to do the same with the based on DEX attack, I think it should be a lesser limitation.

 

 

I think your math is off. a 10d6 "body" mind control would be an average of 35 rolled. If the average dex in a champions game is 20-30 a 10d6 attack would range from +10 to +0 of effect.

 

My math was off, but on the average total, not the reduced cost of the limitation. (My example should have given an average total of 63 for an 18d6 attack.)

 

By giving the mind control a -1 limitation, you're making it half as expensive as the standard mind control. So 50 points of a standard mind control gives you 10d6 to roll for effect, but 50 real points at the -1 limitation gives you 100 active points for the same cost - or 20d6. So unless you're capping the amount they can put into mind control, they're going to average a roll of 70, which will still give them an average of +35 over a DEX 35 character. Against a DEX 30, it's even easier.

 

Now if the target of a based on DEX attack got to use his PD to resist this no range touch attack, that would be different. It's going to be a lot harder to pop into Grond, for instance. If that were the case, then I think you could make a better case for the limitation being worth -1.

[MitchellS]

Re: How to build this power

 

By giving the mind control a -1 limitation' date=' you're making it half as expensive as the standard mind control. So 50 points of a standard mind control gives you 10d6 to roll for effect, but 50 real points at the -1 limitation gives you 100 active points for the same cost - or 20d6. So unless you're capping the amount they can put into mind control, they're going to average a roll of 70, which will still give them an average of +35 over a DEX 35 character. Against a DEX 30, it's even easier.[/quote']

You don't get to exceed campaign active point limits just because you have a -1 limitation on the power. Whatever is set as the standard for the campaign is what must be abided by. In a 60 ap game a 12d6 attack is the limit, just as it would be for an energy blast in an oaf focus.

 

Now if the target of a based on DEX attack got to use his PD to resist this no range touch attack, that would be different. It's going to be a lot harder to pop into Grond, for instance. If that were the case, then I think you could make a better case for the limitation being worth -1.

They do get to use defense.

 

Just so we're clear. My possession power is 2 powers: desolidification with the merge adder and mind control with based on dex limitation. In all other respects the rules work as normal.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build this power

 

Despite the fact that I usually argue that Hero needs LESS powers, I've argued for a while that we need a Gestalt power that is designed to let targets combine thier bodies into one form, granting them the ability to pool resources and use each others powers.

 

This would be the basis of most posession powers, the ability telepaths have to merge minds to create a powerful "omnimind" psychic entity or even the relativly common "combine to from mega robot!" aspect of the sentai genre.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to build this power

 

If they want access to the thoughts' date=' then yes it's 3 powers.[/quote']

 

Just a note: if you make powers that do a lot of things at once, you then get into the issue of limitation values if we hive parts off. "Oh, my character can possess people, but can't access their thoughts."

 

Then we end up with very limited, low RP powers (cost commensurate with utility) whose AP cost is prohibitive for frameworks, or games with an AP cap. There are always tradeoffs.