Hit Location: Heart

[Edsel]

In some games it is important to know just how much the minus to hit the heart should be (for instance a vampire). My first instinct is to say that a vitals hit (hit location 13, -8 OCV) would be a heart hit but its not really that easy.

 

If you have the Dark Champions book, the body armor chart on page 271 shows that trauma plates covering the chest protect locations 10-11 but not location 13. The heart is located in the chest so Hit Location 13 must cover it as well as other vital areas of the torso and abdomen. So simply rolling a 13 on the hit location chart does not necessarily mean a heart hit.

 

Do you think a called shot, taking the -8 OCV, is sufficient to hit the heart, so long as the shooter specifies that his intended target is the heart? Or, should it be more difficult to specifically target the heart (perhaps -10)? You will note that a called shot to the head is a -8 OCV and the head is considerably larger than the heart.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

I would consider a heart shot to be -8. Vitals are really supposed to take into account all vital organs, IMO. I also think the hit location chart needs to be slightly redesigned but for what they have [and with the need to base off of average rolls of 10-11] it works.

[Edsel]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

I can agree with that. A -8 is not exactly making the shot easy. There is probably no point in making it any more difficult.

 

But what about this sort of a situation:

 

A character shoots at a humanoid creature that can only be killed by destroying the heart. The character, for whatever reason, does not take a called shot and randomly rolls a 13 for hit location. Should that count as a heart hit? I am thinking of saying that such a random hit should have to make a follow-up roll (of say 11-) to determine if the heart was actually hit or not.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

There's nothing wrong with that approach. What you could also do is define 6 vitals locations [heart, lung, stomach, intestines, kidneys, liver] and roll a d6 to randomly determine which of those organs are hit by that roll.

[McCoy]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

Do you think a called shot' date=' taking the -8 OCV, is sufficient to hit the heart, so long as the shooter specifies that his intended target is the heart? [/quote']

Works for me.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

My old group had a house rule that if you were aiming for a specific part, it was 1.5 times the OCV penalty for the location. The heart would be a -4 in that instance. (We always assumed that "Vitals" was a polite way of saying groin.)

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

well a dragon's eyes are -12, i'd say a heart is easier than that, so i can deal with -10, but seriously -8 is pretty stiff

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

I'd probably just say that it is a vitals shot, but only really hits the heart for normal characters if the result of damage would leave them dying. For characters such as vampires, I'd go with -8 but require that it be targetted specifically rather than coming up as a random result. In campaigns where it is likely to be a major theme, I might go with something different.

[Inu]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

My old group had a house rule that if you were aiming for a specific part' date=' it was 1.5 times the OCV penalty for the location. The heart would be a -4 in that instance. (We always assumed that "Vitals" was a polite way of saying groin.)[/quote']

That was the usual joke at our gaming table, but if it's the groin, why do you get 2x body damage? O_o

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

I'd probably just say that it is a vitals shot' date=' but only really hits the heart for normal characters if the result of damage would leave them dying. For characters such as vampires, I'd go with -8 but require that it be targetted specifically rather than coming up as a random result. In campaigns where it is likely to be a major theme, I might go with something different.[/quote']

 

In a vampires campaign, it is likely to be a major theme. An investment of 12 pioints to buy 8 PSL's with may favoured wooden weapon, only to offset hit location modifiers for the heart, would seem a very worthwhile investment. Mind you, that will likely be the case regardless of what penalty you attach.

 

And, in some genres (Blade, Buffy), such an ability is probably reasonable.

[zornwil]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

-8 sounds like too much. I'd have to go back to see what I did, though, because this is a tricky area. It seems difficult, in much horror relating to vampires, for people, even Slayers, to hit the heart. Chest is -3 in HERO; I agree with the above comment I thought Vitals was groin in HERO, which people tend to be very protective of for bio reasons and assume the -8 has to do with that. The heart being in the middle of the chest and it comprising a known and significant area, I would tend to think anywhere from -4 to -6. I think I went with -4 but a better argument might be made for -6, same as Hands, that seemed about right to me - your first is the size of your hand. I think a reason I went with -4, though, is that vampires (I think) have a very high OCV to start so I found it became prohibitive too fast to hit at all, since the rest of the body did no damage at all.

 

PS - but following my comment about humans and groins, well, maybe -8 is just about right - I just think if you have DEX 30+ vampires, which seems about right to me, it gets WAY too hard to hit them

[MitchellS]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

-8 sounds like too much. I'd have to go back to see what I did' date=' though, because this is a tricky area. It seems difficult, in much horror relating to vampires, for people, even Slayers, to hit the heart. Chest is -3 in HERO; I agree with the above comment I thought Vitals was groin in HERO, which people tend to be very protective of for bio reasons and assume the -8 has to do with that. The heart being in the middle of the chest and it comprising a known and significant area, I would tend to think anywhere from -4 to -6.[/quote']

Page 415 of 5Er under "Other Rules" for Hit Location.

[Blue]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

To me it depends on the prevalence of the heart-attacks (so to speak). If I were running a Superhero game where they characters found themselves in Vampire-World, facing vampire hordes, I'd say a simple chest-targeting hit would be enough. No need to be super exact.

 

If this was a specific weakness of the subject (Such as Vulnerability, Susceptability, or Physical Limitation), I'd base the minus (-) on how many points I gave the target. If the limit comes into play "very rarely", I'd make it harder to hit than with the "common" level.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

PS - but following my comment about humans and groins' date=' well, maybe -8 is just about right - I just think if you have DEX 30+ vampires, which seems about right to me, it gets WAY too hard to hit them[/quote']

 

Sometimes, realism has to take a back seat to playability and genre conventions. If "realism" says -8, but -8 makes it virtually impossible, and it's fairly common in genre, bye bye -8.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

Sometimes' date=' realism has to take a back seat to playability and genre conventions. If "realism" says -8, but -8 makes it virtually impossible, and it's fairly common in genre, bye bye -8.[/quote']

Or just don't make 30 dex vampires. Buffy and her crew never seems to have any problem hitting them.

[KA.]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

One practical, yet gross, way to deal with it is to give Vampires a

Physical Limitation : Enlarged Heart

Which would mean that any hit in the location Chest would hit the heart.

I don't know why, other than genre convention, but most vampires just don't seem that great at defending this area.

 

Also, Vampire hunters seem to be able to pull off some type of Surprise Attack for this hit location. You see it in Buffy all the time. They are trading blows back and forth, and then, even though you think they would expect it, they get staked. It is like they forget to guard their chest due to bloodlust or something. Maybe most vampires have something like Enraged, that causes them to go for their 'most damaging' attack. Note that 'Most Damaging' rarely involves 'Best DCV Modifier'. Which means that they are trying so hard to put the bite on someone that they don't cover up.

 

(Why am I getting a mental image of a Vampire with a 'corner man'.

"Bite and Move!

Bite and Move!

Protect that chest!

They are gonna stake you man!" )

 

I guess someone could build some type of Martial Maneuver for Slayers based on Block.

If you succeed, not only do you go first in the next phase, your opponent's chest is exposed.

 

Another consideration would be what type of weapon is being used.

 

In the real world, most things that are damaging hit a fairly small area.

Bullets, Knives, Spears, Stakes, have an impact area of 1 Square Inch or less.

But if you send your superheroes to Vampire world, the vampires better have their 'A' game ready.

After all, if Iron Man gets mad, and decides to fire up the Repulsors to full power, they could easily blow out your entire chest.

I am pretty sure this would take the heart with it.

 

KA.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

Once practical, yet gross, way to deal with it is to give Vampires a

Physical Limitation : Enlarged Heart

Which would mean that any hit in the location Chest would hit the heart.

I don't know why, other than genre convention, but most vampires just don't seem that great at defending this area.

 

Also, Vampire hunters seem to be able to pull off some type of Surprise Attack for this hit location. You see it in Buffy all the time. They are trading blows back and forth, and then, even though you think they would expect it, they get staked. It is like they forget to guard their chest due to bloodlust or something. Maybe most vampires have something like Enraged, that causes them to go for their 'most damaging' attack. Note that 'Most Damaging' rarely involves 'Best DCV Modifier'. Which means that they are trying so hard to put the bite on someone that they don't cover up.

 

(Why am I getting a mental image of a Vampire with a 'corner man'.

"Bite and Move!

Bite and Move!

Protect that chest!

They are gonna stake you man!" )

 

I guess someone could build some type of Martial Maneuver for Slayers based on Block.

If you succeed, not only do you go first in the next phase, your opponent's chest is exposed.

 

Another consideration would be what type of weapon is being used.

 

In the real world, most things that are damaging hit a fairly small area.

Bullets, Knives, Spears, Stakes, have an impact area of 1 Square Inch or less.

But if you send your superheroes to Vampire world, the vampires better have their 'A' game ready.

After all, if Iron Man gets mad, and decides to fire up the Repulsors to full power, they could easily blow out your entire chest.

I am pretty sure this would take the heart with it.

 

KA.

It might just be 8 PSL for heart hit location targeting, costs end, 1 turn delay. That's why they don't use it too often.

[Inu]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

PS - but following my comment about humans and groins' date=' well, maybe -8 is just about right - I just think if you have DEX 30+ vampires, which seems about right to me, it gets WAY too hard to hit them[/quote']

Alternately, it's just hard enough. It depends on the vampire genre, really. Are you talking about Buffy, or Dracula? In the former, even high school kids can dust vampires with stakes. It's possible that those vampires don't have 'stake in the heart' weakness, they have 'susceptibility, 10d6K, every segment' to wood.

 

In Dracula genre, however, stakes generally have to be used against vampires who are already unconscious/restrained/etc. They're enormous things that have to be placed and then hammered in. You can't do that in combat, obviously.

 

So whether -8 is too much or too little really depends on what KIND of vampires you want. (Similarly, how much damage you have to do. Is it a straight x2 BODY for any hit to the heart? Or is it instant death/paralysis for any hit that does over X BODY - IE, actually penetrates? Since wood isn't exactly the best material for that.)

[MitchellS]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

Alternately, it's just hard enough. It depends on the vampire genre, really. Are you talking about Buffy, or Dracula? In the former, even high school kids can dust vampires with stakes. It's possible that those vampires don't have 'stake in the heart' weakness, they have 'susceptibility, 10d6K, every segment' to wood.

 

In Dracula genre, however, stakes generally have to be used against vampires who are already unconscious/restrained/etc. They're enormous things that have to be placed and then hammered in. You can't do that in combat, obviously.

 

So whether -8 is too much or too little really depends on what KIND of vampires you want. (Similarly, how much damage you have to do. Is it a straight x2 BODY for any hit to the heart? Or is it instant death/paralysis for any hit that does over X BODY - IE, actually penetrates? Since wood isn't exactly the best material for that.)

No, you need to be really cruel. You give the vampires x2 body for the hit location as the rules suggest and then give them x2 body vulnerability too. All of a sudden that 1d6+1 to the heart is looking mighty dangerous.

[zornwil]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

Page 415 of 5Er under "Other Rules" for Hit Location.

Whoops, thanks much!

[zornwil]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

Or just don't make 30 dex vampires. Buffy and her crew never seems to have any problem hitting them.

I don't disagree with your comment at all except for where we get into the whole nature of simulating story-telling - so the "average" person seems almost amazingly inept at hitting a vampire (even if they know the heart is the target) while the Scooby Gang is rather quite good at it and Buffy, of course, is superior. The real gap is between common and the Scooby Gang, which on first glance I have no problem with BUT the problem then comes in that the Sccoby Gang is plot-device-centric and so they suddenly can or can't do things that call into question what average and above average bars are. And of course Buffy as well will suddenly not hit a heart phase after phase after phase before nailing it. Maybe Extra Time... seriously, though, it's hard to draw from fickle source material, but then that's the age-old gaming-from-the-source problem, anyway.

[zornwil]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

Actually, isn't it also true that metal doesn't do it, just wood, right?

 

I always do it as instant death as in Buffy, once the spot is nailed.

 

I liked KA's post...maybe that is it. Maybe it's a matter of a combo of a specialized power (more on that in a moment) along what MitchellS said and I added not knowing his comment, along with the penalty not being quite so high due to vampire blood lust and all that...

 

so the maneuver might be something like a specialized form of Find Weakness, the SFX is the study of the opponent fot the right opening. Requires something like a half phase dedicated per player phase, requires 1 Turn or whatever, then make the FW roll, or perhaps it's a regular FW roll but with Skill Levels which require Half Phase Preparation per +1 to Skill Level, something like that, so the character will be concentrating during combat on studying and maneuvering so as to get the pluses and when ready, strikes. This tends to simulate Buffy combat well, anyway, and explains why, except for when the plot or humor really needs it, it takes her a few phases to put down even mediocre vampires.

 

Or she's just a cat who enjoys her mice, which has also been alluded to in the series (the sub-theme of it about not battling monsters lest ye become one).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

Actually, isn't it also true that metal doesn't do it, just wood, right?

 

I always do it as instant death as in Buffy, once the spot is nailed.

 

That depends on which branch of vampire lore one chooses to follow. Modern fiction has drawn itself towards "destruction of the heart kills the vampire". I recall reading some historical vampire lore which indicated you had to drive a wooden stake through the vampire through the heart, decapitate him, fill his mouth with holy wafers (blessed communion wafers, I believe), and burn head and body separately, quite a distance apart, scatteringb the ashes under some fairly precise conditions.

 

As time goes on, we discover more weaknesses vampires possess, apparently. [Anyone remember the old Munden's Bar strip with the poor Vampire who, over time, had developed weaknesses to tourbots, among other things?]

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

in folklore, any sort of stake, metal or wood driven through the stomach, chest heart whatever, was supposed to pin a vampire to the ground where the sun's rays would destroy it in the morning.

 

Also the most effective vampire fighting would was aspen i belive.

 

In VtM a heart staking completely paralysis' a vampire, so that's another idea.

[zornwil]

Re: Hit Location: Heart

 

That depends on which branch of vampire lore one chooses to follow. Modern fiction has drawn itself towards "destruction of the heart kills the vampire". I recall reading some historical vampire lore which indicated you had to drive a wooden stake through the vampire through the heart, decapitate him, fill his mouth with holy wafers (blessed communion wafers, I believe), and burn head and body separately, quite a distance apart, scatteringb the ashes under some fairly precise conditions.

 

As time goes on, we discover more weaknesses vampires possess, apparently. [Anyone remember the old Munden's Bar strip with the poor Vampire who, over time, had developed weaknesses to tourbots, among other things?]

To me, the most interesting modern twist was provided by the World Weekly News which declared (sadly, as they are indeed non-discriminatory except perhaps being somewhat homophobic) that vampires were dying off in New York City due to catching AIDS.

 

Rather smart idea, actually, and I provide it seriously as a roleplaying notion. I didn't use it directly but did use a derivation and one of the PC's father (uh, Dr. Strange) died as a result of something related. Of course for a master mage, death isn't quite so great a hindrance as for most of us.