Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

[MitchellS]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

that's what SLs are for.

Not really. A character with a 23 dexterity has a 14- roll minimum. Skill levels are great for increasing but do nothing for decreasing.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Maybe its because Ive been playing HERO in one form or another for over 20 years now, but I find this entire discussion baffling.

 

....OMG I feel old...

 

Anyway, *Ahem*, where was I? Oh yes...

 

In all the games Ive played in HERO, there has -always- been the understanding that, should a character's stats improve over one of the "break points", the attendant skills would also improve by one, as well. I cant -fathom- not seeing it that way. As was mentioned, if your reaction time and co-ordination improve, so will your ability to drive in emergencies. Or to move quietly, or perform gymnastics. (Driving, Stealth, and Acrobatics). Thats just....common sense. To me, anyway. How could that not be the case?

 

The skill rolls we have in a HERO game represent not only the amount of practice or information that we have been exposed to in a given area, but also our ability to make -practical- use of it when the need arises in the field. Most campaigns are fairly action-oriented, and when the adrenaline is flowing and your heart is thumping, thats when you really find out how well you learned to do something.

 

Also, lets not forget that its very -very- hard for a person in real life to "raise their stats" once they reach adulthood. Physical exercise, unless its of an extreme nature, tends to raise your Strength and Recovery, but thats about it. I cant think of a way to raise your INT. (If I could raise my Int, I would, and then maybe I could think of something...) so its difficult to give examples of what the effects of doing that would "realistically" be.

 

But Ive always operated from the assumption that a character's skill rolls represent what the character can -do- with the information and abilities that they have. Sometimes you can remember what the defenestration of Prague was all about, and sometimes it slips your mind. How many of us have seen a particular actor in a movie or on tv, and spent several minutes trying to remember their name? Yet on other days it comes easily to mind. That, to me, is the difference between a failed or successful KS: Celebrities roll. (Just the other day I completely blanked on the name of Sienna Miller, the cute blonde from "Keen Eddie". Yet today her name came right to mind. Have I bought up my skill? I dont think I have since yesterday...)

 

So, yes, Id say that if a character's INT goes up past a break point for skill rolls, that all that character's skills increase by +1. Think of it as that level of Intelligence coming with its own +1 Skill Level Skills.

 

Approaching the matter from the standpoint of the "base roll" -only- applying during initial character creation doesnt really fit with the rest of HERO, where the formulas apply consistently throughout the game. That would be like saying that, even if your DEX goes up by 3 points, if it happens after initial character generation, your OCV and DCV are unaffected. That just doesnt jibe. If you dont believe me, try raising your character's INT over a break point in Hero Designer, and then go look at the skills

 

yay! well said. That's exactly how I feel about it and how I've understood it to work.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Not really. A character with a 23 dexterity has a 14- roll minimum. Skill levels are great for increasing but do nothing for decreasing.

 

no you can't decrease. But if I want a roll of -14 for only a few of my dex abilities then why should I have a dex of 23 to begin with?

 

If someone's more than 4 times more dexterous than a normal person they should be better at any skill they buy with that stat.

[MitchellS]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

no you can't decrease. But if I want a roll of -14 for only a few of my dex abilities then why should I have a dex of 23 to begin with?

 

If someone's more than 4 times more dexterous than a normal person they should be better at any skill they buy with that stat.

You mean becides the 8 CV and 14- Dex rolls?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

You mean becides the 8 CV and 14- Dex rolls?

 

Weren't you the one preaching "concept" earlier. If you have a high CV and poor DEX skills, maybe you should have a low DEX and combat skill levels.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

It's a 2 point difference between our playtest version and the official version [the official version costs 1/2 a DC]. Those 2 points don't bother us at all.

 

It's a 2 point difference if you have a stat of 13. If your stat is higher, the skill roll would be higher so the difference is increased.

 

And what if you want 10 skills? Now we're up to a 20 point difference.

[MitchellS]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Weren't you the one preaching "concept" earlier. If you have a high CV and poor DEX skills' date=' maybe you should have a low DEX and combat skill levels.[/quote']

You can do it however you want to do it. I just prefer to use the standard Champions' method. Our playtest gives us the best of both worlds, so far anyway.

[MitchellS]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

It's a 2 point difference if you have a stat of 13. If your stat is higher, the skill roll would be higher so the difference is increased.

 

And what if you want 10 skills? Now we're up to a 20 point difference.

Again, I'm not concerned about point totals at this point. It's a playtest.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

that's what SLs are for.

 

Here I must agree with Mitchels. If you have an 18 stat, you get a 13- skill roll, which is adequate for most tasks. In most Supers games, I see characters with at least a 23 in stats they will base a lot of skills on.

 

The answer is likely to expand the skills themselves, however, so there are tasks you need a 17- roll to even contemplate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

You can do it however you want to do it. I just prefer to use the standard Champions' method. Our playtest gives us the best of both worlds' date=' so far anyway.[/quote']

 

The standard Champions method has most characters with 14- or better skill rolls in Dex skills.

 

To your "who cares about points, it's just playtest" comment, much of the game is points, so it's not much of a test if you don't factor that in.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

You mean becides the 8 CV and 14- Dex rolls?

 

they should have those too.

 

Look, you can always as a GM use penalties for doing things. For example. If a healer wanted to stabalize an organism with a paramedics role, but they had never seen that organism before, nor have they heard or red about it.

 

The GM decides that this is a -5 to thier skill role. The healer has a paramedics roll of -14 normally, but now it's only a -9.

Thus they drop from succeeding 90% of the time to only 37% of the time.

They are still an excellent doctor, since a doctor below thier caliber would find the task nearly impossible. Thus that high intelligence (or even SLs) helps them have a chance at preforming tasks at wich there is a penalty.

 

The book does suggest skill penalties. That why having a skill roll over 18 can be helpful.

 

In one of my games we have a doctor with a -23 paramedics role due to int and SLs, and she has still failed a paramedics role. She had no tools, had an impaired limb, and was not familiar with the alien's species. Her lovlely -23 was reduced to a -7.

 

having a high skill roll does not garuntee success.

[MitchellS]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

The standard Champions method has most characters with 14- or better skill rolls in Dex skills.

 

To your "who cares about points, it's just playtest" comment, much of the game is points, so it's not much of a test if you don't factor that in.

Starting point totals can be adjusted for anything, as we have already seen in the 250 to 350 jump. At this point it's more important to see how the skills work.

[Intrigue]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Maybe its because Ive been playing HERO in one form or another for over 20 years now, but I find this entire discussion baffling.

 

....OMG I feel old...

 

Anyway, *Ahem*, where was I? Oh yes...

 

In all the games Ive played in HERO, there has -always- been the understanding that, should a character's stats improve over one of the "break points", the attendant skills would also improve by one, as well. I cant -fathom- not seeing it that way. As was mentioned, if your reaction time and co-ordination improve, so will your ability to drive in emergencies. Or to move quietly, or perform gymnastics. (Driving, Stealth, and Acrobatics). Thats just....common sense. To me, anyway. How could that not be the case?

 

The skill rolls we have in a HERO game represent not only the amount of practice or information that we have been exposed to in a given area, but also our ability to make -practical- use of it when the need arises in the field. Most campaigns are fairly action-oriented, and when the adrenaline is flowing and your heart is thumping, thats when you really find out how well you learned to do something.

 

Also, lets not forget that its very -very- hard for a person in real life to "raise their stats" once they reach adulthood. Physical exercise, unless its of an extreme nature, tends to raise your Strength and Recovery, but thats about it. I cant think of a way to raise your INT. (If I could raise my Int, I would, and then maybe I could think of something...) so its difficult to give examples of what the effects of doing that would "realistically" be.

 

But Ive always operated from the assumption that a character's skill rolls represent what the character can -do- with the information and abilities that they have. Sometimes you can remember what the defenestration of Prague was all about, and sometimes it slips your mind. How many of us have seen a particular actor in a movie or on tv, and spent several minutes trying to remember their name? Yet on other days it comes easily to mind. That, to me, is the difference between a failed or successful KS: Celebrities roll. (Just the other day I completely blanked on the name of Sienna Miller, the cute blonde from "Keen Eddie". Yet today her name came right to mind. Have I bought up my skill? I dont think I have since yesterday...)

 

So, yes, Id say that if a character's INT goes up past a break point for skill rolls, that all that character's skills increase by +1. Think of it as that level of Intelligence coming with its own +1 Skill Level Skills.

 

Approaching the matter from the standpoint of the "base roll" -only- applying during initial character creation doesnt really fit with the rest of HERO, where the formulas apply consistently throughout the game. That would be like saying that, even if your DEX goes up by 3 points, if it happens after initial character generation, your OCV and DCV are unaffected. That just doesnt jibe. If you dont believe me, try raising your character's INT over a break point in Hero Designer, and then go look at the skills

 

Wow. In the over 20 years I've played in the system (OMG *I* feel old) I've never seen it done that way. I just can't see doing it that way, but I respect your right to play it as you see it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Wow. In the over 20 years I've played in the system (OMG *I* feel old) I've never seen it done that way. I just can't see doing it that way' date=' but I respect your right to play it as you see it.[/quote']

Yes, it's hard to stop traditions, even if they are wrong. Old-timers don't like change.

[Intrigue]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Yes' date=' it's hard to stop traditions, even if they are wrong. Old-timers don't like change. [/quote']

 

Well, I figure if it ain't broke, don't fix it. My game seems to be working just fine without this variation. Not having played it that way, and the fact that it still doesn't make logical sense to me, indicates to me that I don't need to mess with the way my game is going. I never played it that way with any of the guys who were working on Champions in the 80s, so I'm not really worried. I don't know how Steve Long would rule on it, but hey, the important thing is that it's fun.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I've been thinking for a while that skills could use more variance as well.

 

What about simply requiring a 4d6 roll for skills?

 

Leave everything as is with regards to current point levels and current roll under levels. Some characters may need to be refactored to better conform their concepts with their in game skill roll performance, but I don't think it would that disruptive. It moves the roll average from 10.5 to 14, so everyone would still start at a 11- or higher for a starting skill roll. This would allow for more build up to being "World Class" or "Legendary" than is currently available in game. You could keep familiarity at a 8- which at this level would more accuratly portray someones lack of real proficiency in a skill than it is currently.

 

What do you think?

 

TB

[Trebuchet]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I think input.jack is dead on on this issue. Of course skills go up if the appropriate characteristic passes a break point. If you get more dexterous, your ability to perform dexterity-based skills will improve as well. That's only logical. Not to mention the book-keeping nightmare of trying to remember which characteristics were bought to what level, and when. Does everyone archive every single version of their characters as they spend XP throughout the career of their character? Would Overall Skill Levels not apply to Skills bought after the character bought those Levels?

 

Spending XP does not represent spending an object like dollars; where you just hand a clerk your money and he gives you what you want in return. It represents time and effort expended to learn or improve an ability. Viewing a skill's improvement from a purchased increase in the appropriate Characteristics is a totally metagaming way of looking at this issue. Just as lifting weights can increase strength and performing dexterity or memory exercises can improve those characteristics in a person, it only makes sense that skills based on those characteristics will also improve. If that bothers some GMs, they can always insist that the player justify the XP expenditure (Which is something we do in our long-running campaign: All XP spent must be approved by two or more of the five GMs, even with characters played by another GM.) and require it take some time.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I'm just thinking of Hero or Justice' date=' Inc.. I find it unwieldy because, for example, let's say you have a knowledge skill for "Ancient Egyptian Games". Just because you gain INT, what would be the justification for suddenly knowing more about that subject? I have had someone mention "you remember more" as a reason, but I've always used INT rolls for memory issues. I don't see why more INT means you've suddenly cracked more books on the subject. Also, it means you have to keep updating all your skills if you up stats. As a GM I don't encourage upping stats without a seriously good reason, but still...[/quote']

 

INT is how fast you think. If you gain the ability to think faster, it doesn't take you so long to remember something.

 

Think about it in reverse: If your INT goes down (say due to alcohol), you find it harder to remember things you DO know, at least quickly enough to be relevant.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I've always played with skills being linked to characteristics, it just makes sense to me. I don't see a reason to change, it doesnt' seem broken

[Trebuchet]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

INT is how fast you think. If you gain the ability to think faster, it doesn't take you so long to remember something.

 

Think about it in reverse: If your INT goes down (say due to alcohol), you find it harder to remember things you DO know, at least quickly enough to be relevant.

Well reasoned.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

INT is how fast you think. If you gain the ability to think faster, it doesn't take you so long to remember something.

 

Think about it in reverse: If your INT goes down (say due to alcohol), you find it harder to remember things you DO know, at least quickly enough to be relevant.

 

The kid is 19 again right?

 

So Whamme what's up with the alcohol knowledge?

 

 

OTOH Intrigue: Welcome! Your idea is insane but welcome to the HERO Boards. We love dissenters, they taste good with ketchup. I'll look up the rules in 5er and see what they say.

 

 

Hawksmoor

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Another way to approach it is from a purely points base. So, Intrigue, given your perception of how stats work (which is opposite my first experience with the system in '83), you can still buy a 5-pt skill level that gives +1 to all Intellect skills. How is that any different? arguably it is a better choice the way you play as then you wouldn't be subject to the effects of an INT drain. Yet they cost the same.

 

Char rolls are not figured characteristics, they are derived. If you buy no figured on DEX your char roll and your CV still change, only your SPD does not.

 

You can certainly play however you want, I think your method however penalizes character concept. It makes more sense to buy skill levels your way than chars, yet the cost will be the same.

 

How do you handle drains? do your skills go down? They should. If they go down, why not up?

[CourtFool]

Yes, Virginia, Stat Increase = Skill Increase.

 

D&D (3.0+), G.U.R.P.S. and Hero base skills on attributes just to name a few. Based on this discussion, I would not say that is right or wrong but a matter of opinion. It does seem that there is precedent for it though.

 

My personal preference is that skills be based on attributes and that when the underlying attribute is increased, so is the related skill.

 

For those of you who prefer not to have skills related to attributes, may I suggest you buy your attributes with a Limitation of “Does Not Apply To Skill Rolls†for either a -¼ or -½. I believe this will achieve exactly what you want without having to change anything. It should even work in Hero Designer. Just click on “Do not add to totalsâ€.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I think input.jack is dead on on this issue. Of course skills go up if the appropriate characteristic passes a break point. If you get more dexterous' date=' your ability to perform dexterity-based skills will improve as well. That's only logical. Not to mention the book-keeping nightmare of trying to remember which characteristics were bought to what level, and when. Does everyone archive every single version of their characters as they spend XP throughout the career of their character? Would Overall Skill Levels not apply to Skills bought after the character bought those Levels?[/quote']

 

Following on the bookkeeping nightmare, this also distorts the value of certain stats. Let's say I ultimately envision my character having six PRE based skills at 14-, but I lack the CP to fully realize my vision at character creation. The cost of the 6 skills (18 points) and a 23 PRE (13 points) at character inception is 31 points, but I'm short 8 points on realizing that vision. I have three options for dealing with that:

 

(a) Start with all the skills, and a 15 PRE, and buy it up gradually. Under the "stat boosts after creation don't impact skill rolls" approach, buying my PRE up has no impact on my skill rolls. I'll need instead to boost each skill individually, at a cost of 24 points rather than the 8 I could have spent at character creation.

 

( Start with a 23 PRE, buy the two skills most central to the character, and buy the other four as Familiarities only at this time. This way, I only pay 8 points, since I have the stat before the skills.

 

Why should there be a 16 point difference in cost to get two characters with identical abilities in these skills? Note that it's really a 24 point difference, since Character A still needs to buy another 8 PREto be as impressive, and resistant to PRE attacks, as Character (.

 

© Start with all the skills, and a 15 PRE, and buy 2 skill levels with PRE skills. That will cost 10 points, and will reduce the benefit of complimentary skill rolls, so again we get a greater cost for a less effective character.

 

I've simplied the above - if instead the character compromised both skills and PRE somewhat, he'd end up with PRE skills with a variety of different base rolls, which would be really confusing.

 

While I don't agree with Mitchells' approach, the complete divorcing of attributes and skill rolls would be preferable to the above. At least we would get the same cost regardless of what order abilities are purchased in!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

The kid is 19 again right?

 

So Whamme what's up with the alcohol knowledge?

 

I always forget some of you US states have legal drinking ages higher than 18. I was in California over a vacation when I was in college, and it was only on the last day we were out there that we realized I was illegal. And that was only because a bunch of high school grads from another state (Montana, IIRC) where the driking age was 18 or 19 mentioned it.

 

I think Whamme's from New Zealand, and I don't know the legal drinking age there.