Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Yes' date=' it's hard to stop traditions, even if they are wrong. Old-timers don't like change. [/quote']

 

It's hard to decide what causes more damage in the so-called real world - steadfast resistance to necessary change, or change for the sake of change. In my world view, to be desirable, any change must carry benefits which are commensurate with the costs of effecting the change. The system isn't broken now (IMO), so I don't see much point changing it.

 

Would there be benefits to fine tuning it more? Probably. I prefer the 4d6 skill roll approach, however since that doesn't change a lot. It does, however, remove the core mechanic of "actions are resolved with 3d6". Overall,m I don;'t see the "problem" as significant enough to merit these "solutions".

 

A better solution, IMO, would be to revise the skill levels required to succeed at various tasks by increasing the penalties for certain circumstances. If we had common "heroic actions" that imposed a -6 or -8 penalty (much like a called shot to the head), there would be an incentive to boost those skills up higher, and classify "world class" or "legendary" as much higher rolls than they currently are.

 

Steve, if you're reading this, I'd like to see an "optional rules" section on spreading out the skill rolls in the Ultimate Skill.

[Intrigue]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Another way to approach it is from a purely points base. So, Intrigue, given your perception of how stats work (which is opposite my first experience with the system in '83), you can still buy a 5-pt skill level that gives +1 to all Intellect skills. How is that any different? arguably it is a better choice the way you play as then you wouldn't be subject to the effects of an INT drain. Yet they cost the same.

 

Char rolls are not figured characteristics, they are derived. If you buy no figured on DEX your char roll and your CV still change, only your SPD does not.

 

You can certainly play however you want, I think your method however penalizes character concept. It makes more sense to buy skill levels your way than chars, yet the cost will be the same.

 

How do you handle drains? do your skills go down? They should. If they go down, why not up?

 

Given that these days I'm not running or playing in a superheroic campaign, I'm not sure how the way I've always played would affect such a campaign, although it never seemed to give the GMs I played under any problems and as far as I know, they ran that way. The game I currently run is more Justice, Inc. based (the Hero system, and Justice, Inc./Hero Sys, ver.3 with some personal modifications).

 

That being said, within my game, an INT drain has an effect on your INT roll, as well as your perception roll. If you try to do something that requires INT, I will put a modifier on that roll if your INT is impaired in some way. When a player is allowed to raise a stat, I will allow that to also raise figured characteristics with the exception of speed, and to affect things like INT rolls, PER rolls, CVs, etc..

 

I think if skills go up with stats, then they go up too fast. I realize not everyone plays that way, and that I'm simplifying things a lot for my game in other ways, but it seems to work fine, and has a fairly realistic effect.

[zornwil]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I'm just really blown away by the general response I've seen here. I thought the way I was doing it was the way most folks have done it, and to see that that isn't the case is kind of....shocking. It would never have occurred to me to raise skills when stats are raised. Figured characteristics, yes, but not skills.

 

I'm not going to change the way I've been running my game, but this has been interesting.

You can run Knowledge Skills as pure Background Skills and divorce them from INT.

 

But I think it makes sense otherwise and in any case/situation to allow INT increases to affect Analyze and Deduction and other such "quick-thinking" INT-based skills, as well as of course other sorts of skills based on chars.

[atlascott]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

...Let's say my dex is 10 and I learn to drive. My dex goes up to 13. Why would that make me a better driver? Wouldn't practice have more impact? I learned to drive with a dex of 10. It would take me a little time to work up to the level of skill that would go with my new dex. That's why I have my players buy the base skill roll' date=' and then pay the points for more skill.[/quote']

 

I do not think that HERO skills are broken, and I LIKE the characteristic plus skill-based system. And, it makes sense. A strong guy is going to be naturally better at skills defined as based on STR. A smart guy has a better chance at knowing some obscure fact than is the villiage idiot.

 

Sure, a less dextrous person who practiced driving would get better at driving than he would if he took yoga! But a really clutsy, awkward person probably isnt going to be the best driver. And, a really dextrous, physically-together person is probably going to learn to driver better, adn faster, than the klutz. So there is SOME basis for having Drive as a DEX skill. But buying a +1 increase in a skill is also cheaper than increasing Dex, which costs 3 CP's. So, in game terms, if ALL you wanted to do was get better at driving, then spend the point and get a +1 to your drive skill. But if you also want a better CV, as well as getting better at all DEX skills, then take yoga and buy a more-expensive but more useful point of DEX.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

That being said, within my game, an INT drain has an effect on your INT roll, as well as your perception roll. If you try to do something that requires INT, I will put a modifier on that roll if your INT is impaired in some way. When a player is allowed to raise a stat, I will allow that to also raise figured characteristics with the exception of speed, and to affect things like INT rolls, PER rolls, CVs, etc..

 

I think if skills go up with stats, then they go up too fast. I realize not everyone plays that way, and that I'm simplifying things a lot for my game in other ways, but it seems to work fine, and has a fairly realistic effect.

 

If I understand you correctly, then a DEX drain will impact your ability to perform DEX based skills as well as fight, but a DEX aid will not affect it in any way. That seems very much against how adjustment powers are supposed to work (granted adj powers do not affect figured characteristics but they do affect derived).

 

It seems odd that you allow an increase in DEX to affect CV and a DEX roll but not DEX based skills or Speed. I certainly would be buying DEX with the -1/2 No figured chars limitation in that situation.

 

If you are also playing in a Heroic game, how is it that stats are going up too fast? They would be capped at Normal Char Maxima which make skill levels more efficient (5 pts for +1 to all skills based on a single char vs. 10 pts to raise INT from 23 to 28).

 

It just seems inconsistent. I generally run Heroic games as well and I have never had a situation of "runaway stat inflation".

[input.jack]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Mudpyr8 has a solid point, there. It sounds inherently inconsistent, and to the detriment of the Players, for Stat increases not to increase Skill Rolls accordingly, but for decreases to incur penalties. The same reasoning Intrigue is using to impose the penalties on Skills that are based on a drained Stat is -exactly- the reasoning that demands a raised Stat should increase said Skills.

 

Its your game, Intrigue, and you do, of course, have the right to Ref it as you see fit. But I think that youve been given some pretty solid evidence that perhaps you should reconsider your position on this issue. Were our positions reversed, I know -Id- be changing my position. (Ive had to do alot of position changing since 5th Ed. came out ). As far as I can tell, youre the only person whose posted thats been running "base skill rolls" as -only- applying during character creation. (NBote: Just because youre the only one doing something doesnt automatically make you "wrong"; we could all have misread something that you got right. But in this case I think there a preponderance of overwhelming evidence to the contrary).

 

I agree with Hugh Neilson; the Skill system isnt broken and doesnt need a change. Its just fine the way it is now. If I want to create a character who is a world-class race car driver and a total klutz outside the car, I can. Even with a 6 DEX, a character can buy a Driving roll thats astronomical, if the Ref allows it. Aids to Stats give slight improvements in Skills tied to those Stats, while drains (like alcohol) impair them. Thats both balanced and realistic, as far as I can see

[Intrigue]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

If I understand you correctly, then a DEX drain will impact your ability to perform DEX based skills as well as fight, but a DEX aid will not affect it in any way. That seems very much against how adjustment powers are supposed to work (granted adj powers do not affect figured characteristics but they do affect derived).

 

It seems odd that you allow an increase in DEX to affect CV and a DEX roll but not DEX based skills or Speed. I certainly would be buying DEX with the -1/2 No figured chars limitation in that situation.

 

If you are also playing in a Heroic game, how is it that stats are going up too fast? They would be capped at Normal Char Maxima which make skill levels more efficient (5 pts for +1 to all skills based on a single char vs. 10 pts to raise INT from 23 to 28).

 

It just seems inconsistent. I generally run Heroic games as well and I have never had a situation of "runaway stat inflation".

 

Well, I also don't go in for the skill level that applies to skills based on the same CHAR. It really just doesn't make sense to me. I understand that other people love it, but it just doesn't work for me.

Then again, as I said before, I'm not using ver. 5 of the system right now. I don't allow stats to go up without very good reason, and I make it very rare. I don't want stats in my game to go above 18, honestly. I'm also not running a game with superheroes in it.

Another reason I don't go for recalculating skills if stats change (aside from it making no sense to me) is it takes time away from the game. It just gets swamped in bookkeeping, and that's not where my interest is. I use the old Justice Inc./Hero ver. 3 system because it's a good basic way to set up characters, and there are handy parameters, but there are a lot of things I do differently. My game isn't one for number crunchers, rules lawyers, or min/max types, and I realize that, and that's the way I like it. The important thing is the fun, and too much bookkeeping takes away from that for me. As for a stat "aid", that hasn't come up in my game, but it would be a temporary thing if it did, not a permanent increase.

[Intrigue]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Mudpyr8 has a solid point, there. It sounds inherently inconsistent, and to the detriment of the Players, for Stat increases not to increase Skill Rolls accordingly, but for decreases to incur penalties. The same reasoning Intrigue is using to impose the penalties on Skills that are based on a drained Stat is -exactly- the reasoning that demands a raised Stat should increase said Skills.

 

Its your game, Intrigue, and you do, of course, have the right to Ref it as you see fit. But I think that youve been given some pretty solid evidence that perhaps you should reconsider your position on this issue. Were our positions reversed, I know -Id- be changing my position. (Ive had to do alot of position changing since 5th Ed. came out ). As far as I can tell, youre the only person whose posted thats been running "base skill rolls" as -only- applying during character creation. (NBote: Just because youre the only one doing something doesnt automatically make you "wrong"; we could all have misread something that you got right. But in this case I think there a preponderance of overwhelming evidence to the contrary).

 

I agree with Hugh Neilson; the Skill system isnt broken and doesnt need a change. Its just fine the way it is now. If I want to create a character who is a world-class race car driver and a total klutz outside the car, I can. Even with a 6 DEX, a character can buy a Driving roll thats astronomical, if the Ref allows it. Aids to Stats give slight improvements in Skills tied to those Stats, while drains (like alcohol) impair them. Thats both balanced and realistic, as far as I can see

 

After thinking it over, I'm sticking with what I have. It works better for me, and it has been working fine for my players for a few years now, but I appreciate that other people see it differently.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

that's what I had said earlier. and that's what it says int represents in the book. but yesh' date=' I agree[/quote']

 

Yep. I was just scanning over responces and didn't see yours.

*sigh*

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I'm just really blown away by the general response I've seen here. I thought the way I was doing it was the way most folks have done it, and to see that that isn't the case is kind of....shocking. It would never have occurred to me to raise skills when stats are raised. Figured characteristics, yes, but not skills.

 

 

One point that I haven't seen come up, and a strictly mechanical one - one of the things with the HERO system is that you don't pay different point costs whether in character creation or as experience - and if skills don't raise with the raise of characteristics, that goes against that approach.

 

Compare two character with an int of 18 and 10 points in int skills and a character with an int of 13 and 15 points in int skills (same skills). With five experience the first guy buys 5 points of skills, the second buys 5 points of int. Mechanicaly they should be equal, but if you don't raise skilles with char increases they don't, the second character is penalized.

To me that seems to go against the grain of the system.

 

But that is personal bias.

As others have said, if it works fine for the way you play, don't change it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

By basing skills on the stat in effect at the time of purchase, you just motivate players to buy attributes at character creation and skills later, rather than vice versa. The stats are worth more if I buy them at creation, yet cost the same as if I buy them later, so I'll take the "value added" package by purchasing early.

 

And I agree that, if I don't get the "speed rebate" on DEX, it should be purchased "no figured".

[zornwil]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Well, I also don't go in for the skill level that applies to skills based on the same CHAR. It really just doesn't make sense to me. I understand that other people love it, but it just doesn't work for me.

Then again, as I said before, I'm not using ver. 5 of the system right now. I don't allow stats to go up without very good reason, and I make it very rare. I don't want stats in my game to go above 18, honestly. I'm also not running a game with superheroes in it.

Another reason I don't go for recalculating skills if stats change (aside from it making no sense to me) is it takes time away from the game. It just gets swamped in bookkeeping, and that's not where my interest is. I use the old Justice Inc./Hero ver. 3 system because it's a good basic way to set up characters, and there are handy parameters, but there are a lot of things I do differently. My game isn't one for number crunchers, rules lawyers, or min/max types, and I realize that, and that's the way I like it. The important thing is the fun, and too much bookkeeping takes away from that for me. As for a stat "aid", that hasn't come up in my game, but it would be a temporary thing if it did, not a permanent increase.

Just as a point of info, 5th edition has nothing to do with this. Skills have increased with related chars since early Champions days. The formula as long as I can remember for skills linked to chars has been 9 + (char/5) with the char being whatever it is at the given point in time.

 

Of course you can also scale by this - if you want chars to have "a little" influence you can go to char/10 or even char/20 if you like. Just a thought.

[CourtFool]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I am just curious, Intrigue, which Skill Levels do you allow? Do you only allow the 2 point Levels? If not, what other Skill Levels do you use and what is your reasoning behind allowing them?

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding your point, but it sounds like you want skills completely self contained with no relation to anything else. While I can understand this approach, I disagree with it. You penalize characters with a specific concept since they do not get a cost break on related skills (tight group, all one Char, ect.) Skills also become more expensive, which discourages buying skills. Maybe your group enjoys playing extremely tightly focused characters. I would not.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Cool. I hope you got the responses you were seeking. If you're playing 3rd, that's cool, not much point in debating it. Happy gaming!

[zornwil]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I'm not debating it, but it didn't work that way in 3rd. I mean, it's fine to play that way if you want, just being accurate on the rules.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I haven't read this whole thread, but I'd just like to say that I am in favor of characters' states being memory-less. That is, the, "figured," parts of a character can be completely recalculated at any point in time from the parts they depend on, regardless of the history of the character.

 

That means that if a character's Int is 15, his Int Roll should be 12-, and any Intellect Skill at full proficiency but without a bonus should be 12-. It shouldn't matter if the character has been played or not. There shouldn't be any invisible state that doesn't show up on the character sheet and makes the roll for one Skill 11- while the other is 12- as it should be.

 

That's merely a preference, I suppose. Here are some more objective arguments:

 

Example 1

Two characters both have Concealment. One character started play with Int 10 and bought it up over time to 15. The other character has just been created and is starting with Int 15. They have both spent the same points. Should the character with more experience and play history be punished with only an 11- roll that he has to buy up with even more points while the other character has it right off the bat?

 

I guess this is a Gamist example, since we are fond of using such terminology of late.

 

Example 2

Two characters started with Int 10. Character A bought Tactics early (11- roll). Then they both increased their Int to 15. Now Character B buys Tactics (12- roll). Should Character B's Tactics be higher than Character A's? If anything Character A has had more experience with the Skill. Once again they have spent the same points.

 

This is more of a Simulationist example.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

My $0.02. (and probably worth about that; it's late...)

 

I always interpreted "base roll" to mean "your roll before you add skill levels" not "your roll when you first create the character." Just like your base CV is before you add CSLs.

 

I myself am completely on the opposite end of the spectrum from Intrigue. (Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, of course.) I use a house rule that skill rolls are based on 8+(char/3) instead of 9+(char/5), and have done so since 3rd Edition. While the flamethrowers are warming up, let me hasten to add that this is for *heroic* games with normal characteristic maxima -- I wouldn't use it for supers. But it makes no sense to me that someone with a 20 STR can lift four times what someone with a 10 STR can lift, but only gets a +2 on STR-based skills. Or that Jennifer Aniston's 20 PRE (presumably) only gives her a +2 on her seduction roll.

 

And if you think 8+(char/3) is dumb, you'll really hate this one: I allow everyman skills and 1-point familiarity skills to roll the appropriate characteristic roll, but at -3 (standard non-proficiency penalty). Helps ease the gap between 8- and full skill proficiency.

 

Does this make characteristics too powerful? Maybe. But the people I play with aren't the types to abuse it. I'm not recommending this for everyone, but it seems to have worked well for us.

 

Oh, and to those who say a 13- (84%) is adequate for most skill checks, I would answer that it's fine for *average* checks. For an extremely difficult check -- hacking into a highly secure computer, or a medic roll on someone at -10 Body -- that 13- becomes an 8- (26%).

 

Sorry for the long ramble,

 

bigdamnhero

"It's like I always say: you can get more with a kind word and a 2x4 than you can with just a kind word."

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

But it makes no sense to me that someone with a 20 STR can lift four times what someone with a 10 STR can lift' date=' but only gets a +2 on STR-based skills. [/quote']

Except, of course, that there *are* no STR-based skills. But you know what I meant...

 

Did I mention it was late?

 

bigdamnhero

 

What's the emoticon for "ducks head and shrugs shoulders with a sheepish expression, indicating remorse, self-abasement and humor"?

[Guest darthvegita666]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

wow you old guys do things wierd listen just cause your old doesnt mean that your always right 'i played this game since before they wrote it back when we threw rocks at each other to see if we hit cuz we didnt invent dice yet and there wasnt any papre to right stuff down so wed make marks on the cave walls' well guess what you did it worng then too

 

its like skills are figured by yuor stats period

 

if i build a guy and hes got a 13 int and then buyi t up to an 18 then his skills go up because hes the same number fo points as the guy who started out with an 18 and i should get the same skill rols

 

if you did it different for like a million years than that just means you must not be smart because you did it wrong like my cousin who cant drive hes flipped his car like 5 times and hes like 'ive been driving for 6 years so i know better than you" and im like well i didnt flip my car and ive only been driving for a couple months dumbass

[Guest darthvegita666]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Well, I also don't go in for the skill level that applies to skills based on the same CHAR. It really just doesn't make sense to me. I understand that other people love it, but it just doesn't work for me.

Then again, as I said before, I'm not using ver. 5 of the system right now. I don't allow stats to go up without very good reason, and I make it very rare. I don't want stats in my game to go above 18, honestly. I'm also not running a game with superheroes in it.

Another reason I don't go for recalculating skills if stats change (aside from it making no sense to me) is it takes time away from the game. It just gets swamped in bookkeeping, and that's not where my interest is. I use the old Justice Inc./Hero ver. 3 system because it's a good basic way to set up characters, and there are handy parameters, but there are a lot of things I do differently. My game isn't one for number crunchers, rules lawyers, or min/max types, and I realize that, and that's the way I like it. The important thing is the fun, and too much bookkeeping takes away from that for me. As for a stat "aid", that hasn't come up in my game, but it would be a temporary thing if it did, not a permanent increase.

 

why wud it get swanped in bookeeping if you never let poeple buy up there stats? its like 'oh your skill doesnt go up if your int does because that would be too much work to do all the time by the way you cant ever raise your int because i dont like that and dont ever go above 18" so where is this work coming from if you dont let poeple raise there stats its like they only raise it once so 'oh thats sooooooo much bookeeping so im gonna do it wrong"

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

I see the raising of INT as a very valid reason for skills going up. I'll demonstrate this point with an example

 

The Aztec calendar system is extremely complicated. There are two actual calendars. The first a set of twenty symbols that change each day and a set of 13 numbers that change either day. A full year in this system is 260 days long. The other system is 18 periods of 20 days each and five "dead days" for 365 days in the year. The calendar system resets to the beginning every 52 years. To plot out historical events in Aztec culture, a pulp character would need to be able to determine date in both systems.

 

If the character raises his Intelligence, what changes is how the character processes information. He is quicker and sharper mentally. So the reason why he can determine dates faster instead of using Extra Time to improve his skill roll, is because he can comprehend complex systems faster with his new outlook on life.

 

In the case of Dexterity, I look at it like this. Dexterity is the ability to have better finite control over your own body. Your aim is better because your hand is more steady. Your acrobatics improves because your body is better trained for being able to twist your body in just the right way without having to look and check that you are doing it right. You also are much more attuned to the pressure each footstep makes making it easier to step lightly without sounds than before.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

well guess what you did it worng then too

To quote from The Big Book:

 

"There are very few, if any, rules you can't change in the Hero System...you should play the game the way you want to." (5Ed, pg 348)

 

Or as my old jazz teacher used to put it: "There are no right or wrong notes; only good and bad choices."

 

bigdamnhero

"Consult the Book of Armaments!"

"Armaments, Chapter 5, verse 12..."

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

Big Damn Hero, i like the idea you have for 8+(char/3) for heroic games with NCM. I'll have to try it out!

[Guest darthvegita666]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

To quote from The Big Book:

 

"There are very few, if any, rules you can't change in the Hero System...you should play the game the way you want to." (5Ed, pg 348)

 

Or as my old jazz teacher used to put it: "There are no right or wrong notes; only good and bad choices."

 

bigdamnhero

"Consult the Book of Armaments!"

"Armaments, Chapter 5, verse 12..."

so what? its still not the way the book says to do it so its wrong

 

i can say 'im playing a 5th level brick and ive memorized magic missle 4 times and i hit with my goss rifle so you take 15 points of agravated damage and thats over your con so your dazed' but that doesnt mean im playing champions

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

 

but HERO is all about customization and house ruling.

 

Darth Vegita. Look at bleeding rules.

 

Tell me they arn't retarded.

 

Then come back here