Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

[Citizen Keen]

How much would you value a Disad for having multiple classes of minds? Like, a Plant Man or a Cybernetic Alien, who could be affected by Mental Powers that work with either of their two component classes of mind.

 

That sentence construction is horribly awkward, but I'm not sure what there is to do about it.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

I think it would depend on the prevalence of mental powers, if there are none...then not much of anything.

 

I say it's fully impairing...but the commonality would be the problem with giving you an outright answer. It would be pretty easy to make using Fred's guidlines, but since they are at home, and I am at work, I'd have to get back to you on that.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

No, that makes total sense. I'll probably make it the middle one - "Common," I think. Common, Fully Impairing. My campaign will have a healthy bit o' mental powers.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

No' date=' that makes total sense. I'll probably make it the middle one - "Common," I think. Common, Fully Impairing. My campaign will have a healthy bit o' mental powers.[/quote']

 

that sounds right to me. ^-^ glad I could help

[Fox1]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

I say it's fully impairing...

 

It would be fully impairing only if the mental powers used against him automatically had full effect, i.e. no roll necessary.

 

If I wasn't running my own game (where the question is meaningless- he'd be part of the Sentient creatures group with everyone else) I'd call it a simple 5 point custom disadvantage- 'Machine in addition to Human mind class'.

 

Under no conditions should the disadvantage points approach the 10 point adder cost.

 

In general however, I think the concept is a bad one.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

Fox-

 

You bring up some good points, and I can see where you're coming from in regards to your "Sentient" class of minds.

 

BUT!

 

You say that, "in general" you think it's a bad concept. My understanding of the usage "in general" would mean that that includes the notion of classes of minds, since that's how 5RE handles mental Powers. Generally, people do things by the book. So, assuming people have the standard classes of minds (Human, Machine, Plant, Animal, Alien), why do you think it's a bad concept? I'm curious about what kind of craziness I could be getting myself into.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

i'm thinking 10-15 points depending on how often the extra class of mind will effect him (like if he's a cyborg so he has computer class of minds and there are lots of super hackers than that's definitly a 15 pt, but if he's also a cat for example and there are very few animal controlists it might be worth less)

[Fox1]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

You say that' date=' "in general" you think it's a bad concept. My understanding of the usage "in general" would mean that that includes the notion of classes of minds, since that's how 5RE handles mental Powers. Generally, people do things by the book. So, assuming people have the standard classes of minds (Human, Machine, Plant, Animal, Alien), why do you think it's a bad concept? I'm curious about what kind of craziness I could be getting myself into.[/quote']

 

I thought there were only four classes- Human, Machine, Animal and Alien. I'll have to double check the book. I would have lumped plants in with all the other 'mindless' stuff like insects, viruses, rocks, and stuff.

 

Given Plant being a book default, some of my objections are removed. I think expanding the classes is asking for balance problems. Unless you wish to create those problems, it's something that should be avoided.

 

I also consider the book default classes of mind a little troublesome. It either opens the door to builds that seek to dodge the common user of mental powers, or it inflates the costs of those mental powers. The latter could be a real issue if the class adders are counted against the AP limits for a campaign. This is the reason my own replacing of Human with "Sentient Creatures" and lumping all PCs into it.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

You could base the point value loosely on Vulnerabilities.

 

Affected as 1 CoM: normal, 0pts

 

Affected as 2 CoM: value as 1.5x (ex: AI affected as human and machine)

 

Affected as Multiple/all CoM: value as 2x (ex: Omnipath, the Brain like an Open Book)

 

If mental powers (esp the more unusual CoM types) are uncommon, the progression would be 0, 5, 10. If they're pretty common, 0, 10, 20.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

eh, to each his own. I wouldn't mind lowering the the serverity from fully impairing, but I happen to like the class of minds system.

 

It does need tweaking thats for sure, but it makes no sense to me for a human being to mind control something that he can't understand in the least due to many differnt reasons.

 

I don't like lumping all things into the "human/sentient" catagory. And I would never let someone take alien and human as a disadvantage (because my interpretation of "human" as the character's species automatically makes them alien to anyone outside thier species) but machine and organic is a very different story. And I would find that a signifigant disadvantage for a robot (since even a mental user with only snetient abilities could effect it) or a biologic who could be taknen control of by hackers. That is a significant disadvantage. And it should be worth about 10 points, in my opinion.

 

But again, that's my call. And if others don't wish to use it that's fine too. So long as the game is fun it doesn't matter a bit to me.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

I also would cost it at the 10 point level. If cyberpaths and well just plain hackers with access to his OS can mess with him a la Robocop or RE: Apocalpse then the disadvantage is a good one.

 

Hawksmoor

[Fox1]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

or a biologic who could be taknen control of by hackers.

 

I don't give 'Hackers' Mind Control with Machine Class- that represents a paranormal 'Mental' ability to affect machines. Instead I give them Computer Programming and related skills.

 

Thus cyber-man's vulnerability to such would be brought as different disadvantage.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

that's a matter of choice, i make my hackers as having Mind Control, since it's one of those "powers to represent skills" things for me

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

I don't give 'Hackers' Mind Control with Machine Class- that represents a paranormal 'Mental' ability to affect machines. Instead I give them Computer Programming and related skills.

 

Thus cyber-man's vulnerability to such would be brought as different disadvantage.

 

not necisarily. Most of the "hacker" characters I have made/seen use cybernetic implants that allow them to "mind control" other machines at a distance, adversely they also leave a passageway into thier own minds allowing them to be hacked by similar abilities when thier shielding is down. I have given these characters limitations to a similar effect as what keen is asking for here.

 

All of these of couse fall back on genre, the world and the GM. Traditional hackers, maybe not. But super ones? Definately a possibility.

 

If Keen allows hackers to use mindcontrol then this limitation is valid.

If he doesn't, like you, then it isn't.

It's completely up to him.

[Fox1]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

noMost of the "hacker" characters I have made/seen use cybernetic implants that allow them to "mind control" other machines at a distance

 

I would't use the term 'hacker character' for such. That implies a very different concept. The books use their own term- cyberkinesis.

 

I don't see how such a disadvantage would be worth 10 points in the campaign. But its your game.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

I always get the terms mixed for limitations or diasadvantages. I'm used to thinking of disadvantages as things that effect your character, rather than your chracter's powers. That mainly stems from the termonology I use in the game I'm designig right now. It would be about 10 points for a "physical limitation" in one of my games to be able to be mind controlled by both machine and biological effecting powers, since it would more than double the number of people that could use those powers against you.

(hence you would count as 3 classes of minds, alien/human(species)/machine)

 

I've alway defined a hacker as a person who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations and is generally an expert with computers/systems/etc, that this person enjoys braking codes and outsmarting individuals and thier systems. Since all of my "hackers" built the equipment that they use for mindcontrolling other machine and the special efect is that is broadcasts signls that code to overide normal processing and grant the user contol, I would deam them hackers. Of course each of them could do the same with thier computer skills but it would take more time and finesse.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

I thought there were only four classes- Human, Machine, Animal and Alien. I'll have to double check the book. I would have lumped plants in with all the other 'mindless' stuff like insects, viruses, rocks, and stuff.

 

Given Plant being a book default, some of my objections are removed. I think expanding the classes is asking for balance problems. Unless you wish to create those problems, it's something that should be avoided.

 

I also consider the book default classes of mind a little troublesome. It either opens the door to builds that seek to dodge the common user of mental powers, or it inflates the costs of those mental powers. The latter could be a real issue if the class adders are counted against the AP limits for a campaign. This is the reason my own replacing of Human with "Sentient Creatures" and lumping all PCs into it.

In a Rules Question answer Steve recommended that generally all PCs should belong to the default class of minds (presumably in addition to any other classes of mind assigned via Disadvantages).

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4172&highlight=class+mind

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

I always get the terms mixed for limitations or diasadvantages. I'm used to thinking of disadvantages as things that effect your character, rather than your chracter's powers. That mainly stems from the termonology I use in the game I'm designig right now. It would be about 10 points for a "physical limitation" in one of my games to be able to be mind controlled by both machine and biological effecting powers, since it would more than double the number of people that could use those powers against you.

(hence you would count as 3 classes of minds, alien/human(species)/machine)

 

I've alway defined a hacker as a person who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations and is generally an expert with computers/systems/etc, that this person enjoys braking codes and outsmarting individuals and thier systems. Since all of my "hackers" built the equipment that they use for mindcontrolling other machine and the special efect is that is broadcasts signls that code to overide normal processing and grant the user contol, I would deam them hackers. Of course each of them could do the same with thier computer skills but it would take more time and finesse.

 

That kind of "hacker" is often called a "decker" in gaming parlance, tracing back to cyberpunk style games of the late 80's/early 90's (particularly Shadowrun). Characters with similar abilities that control vehicles instead are often called "riggers".

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

That kind of "hacker" is often called a "decker" in gaming parlance' date=' tracing back to cyberpunk style games of the late 80's/early 90's (particularly Shadowrun). Characters with similar abilities that control vehicles instead are often called "riggers".[/quote']

 

yes, a fellow GM friend of mine has frequently told me that (as he runs Shadowrun Games) as I'm not all that fond of the genre I tend to forget to use the terms. But thanks. ^^

[zornwil]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

I don't believe it's worth a Disad if I understand the underlying implication of CoM in the book. You pay to affect more Classes of Mind with a rather clear implication that being affected by those is simply a fair trade-off for the advantage, not a further Disad. So you just pay to affect more Classes and there's no Disad. IIRC, the Adder is +10, so I'd say that if you just want the Disad of being affected by more than one but you cannot affect those Classes, so it is really a Disad, I'd say the Disad is probably 5-15 points per Class, depending a lot on campaign, frequency, etc.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

I think Mechanon gets 5 points for being affected as both Human and Machine classes of minds.

 

Rob

[stan da ork]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

Just in case anyone cares, the book recommends a Physical Limitation with a value of 5 (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing) for being affected as two or more classed of mind (5ER, p. 121, last paragraph).

[Silbeg]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

Just in case anyone cares' date=' the book recommends a Physical Limitation with a value of 5 (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing) for being affected as two or more classed of mind (5ER, p. 121, last paragraph).[/quote']

 

 

Sounds totally fair to me... shouldn't affect too many things in a campaign.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

that sounds resonable for campaigns where such thngs aren't very likely to occur. In my campaign...I think I'd increse it to 10 points, mainly because all of the classes of minds are common, and so are those that can control them.

[zornwil]

Re: Quick, Easy Mental CoM Question

 

Sounds totally fair to me... shouldn't affect too many things in a campaign.

Thanks. I would presume that this is specifically for being affected by 2 or more classes and NOT being able to affect 2 or more classes, though I may be wrong. Otherwise I'd think the value would have been factored into the ability to affect more than one class of mind.