tinman Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... The tanker has already hit the ground, I'm just trying to poll ideas for the degree and nature of the devastation. Also, there is the redemption issue. From the point of view of both the government and the general public, how does one make up for something like this? How many times will they need to save the world before the slate is wiped clean, so to speak? What will they need to do to get people to trust them again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... A replay opportunity may come about. The PC's have already travelled back in time to fix a problem (and they are living out the new timeline), but they killed the time traveller who helped them (lest the good they did be undone by another - to be fair it was to preempt a successful alien invasion). Since then I have been dropping clues that their current timeline may not be entirely stable. The odd acronym has changed for no reason, certain NPC's have had their reactions to the PC's change suddenly, events that they remember have seemed to have dropped from the public consciousness. I've been working up to potentially having a continuity crisis for them to try to fix, and that might be a chance for them to undo this disaster. If it happens I'll have to make sure it requires a suitable sacrifice on their parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... The tanker has already hit the ground, I'm just trying to poll ideas for the degree and nature of the devastation. Also, there is the redemption issue. From the point of view of both the government and the general public, how does one make up for something like this? How many times will they need to save the world before the slate is wiped clean, so to speak? What will they need to do to get people to trust them again? They can't. They will always be the people that dropped the tanker on City X. Working like mad in the hours and days after the incident will help, but if anyone knows they by their own actions caused the tanker to fall then well it looks bad for them. Outlaw Hero perhaps? Avoiding the media and the cops as they stop the bad guys. Avoiding UNTIL and PRIMUS agents as well as VIPER? Getting offers to come and work for Eurostar since they obviously know how to thrown down. Hawksmoor -I'd rewind time though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alric Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... What did the tanker land on? I could have landed in a park with a lake. Not too many people around (assuming most citizens started bugging out as soon as the tanker appeared overhead) or buildings to be destroyed. Tell the players they got lucky and the oil doesn't ignite on impact. Now there is some property damage and a big mess to clean up. Tell the players that while their efforts couldn't stop the tanker from falling they slowed it and prevented the tanker from completely bursting on impact. Now they just have to contend with tons of oil gushing from the hull. Better work fast before something ignites it. And then blowtorch walks around the corner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... The tanker has already hit the ground, I'm just trying to poll ideas for the degree and nature of the devastation. Also, there is the redemption issue. From the point of view of both the government and the general public, how does one make up for something like this? How many times will they need to save the world before the slate is wiped clean, so to speak? What will they need to do to get people to trust them again? Get your map of Manhattan and choose ground zero, and figure out how many people were toasted using a 2-kilometer radius. And how many digits of property damage were done. I don't know if redemption is possible in our world for an error that large. Even by averting literal destruction of Earth's biosphere, multiple times. The negative is too large for people to wrap their minds around; any possible counterbalancing positive suffers from the same situation. How do you prove you saved the world? By withholding your protection once, that'll show 'em it's for real? Errmm.... There's also the cyncism thing. Even if they were to, say, divert the 200-km asteroid into hitting the Moon instead of Earth (which has the advantage that people could see the impact), you can bet Fox News would assert they'd set it all up to fix their rep in the first place. Political and journalistic careers would have "Revenge for Manhattan!" as their core defining basis, and the support of millions of grieving relatives. It has happened before, obviously. I think generations will have to pass; living memory of the event will have to expire before any hope of "redemption" is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a skewed timeline "fixing" things for them, but leaving them to deal with the guilt internally. Plus, considering how little everyone liked them up to then, they could use a fresh start in the reputation department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... ...you can bet Fox News would assert they'd set it all up to fix their rep in the first place. Fox News has been the bane of their existence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... I agree with the skewed timeline approach. Give them a session or two (or three or...) to realize the consequences of their mistake. Don't hold any punches. Meanwhile, reality starts to unravel all around them, accelerating much more rapidly now that the calamity has taken place. Think of all the lives that are now different from what they should be as a result of this event, and consider that each discrepancy adds up to more and more instability. The PCs have just added a whole bunch more instability to the timeline. The players should realize pretty quickly that something major is up. The characters, on the other hand, may not have a clue as to what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a skewed timeline "fixing" things for them, but leaving them to deal with the guilt internally. Plus, considering how little everyone liked them up to then, they could use a fresh start in the reputation department. Captain Chronos, in an uncharacteristically somber and solumn moment, speaks to the heroes about what they've done, what possibilities they've ruined, what futures they crushed by their accident. He'll take them back in time, not for their sakes, but for the sake of the future. They will, of course, remember. Especially when, months down the road, they are faced with a new villain/NPC/annoyance who knows what they did. He remembers. "I don't know how you fixed it, whether God himself decided you had screwed up so bad that he had to take a personal interest, but I know what you did. I was there. I saw it. I remember. And I won't let you do it again." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... "I don't know how you fixed it' date=' whether God himself decided you had screwed up so bad that he had to take a personal interest, but I know what you did. I was there. I saw it. I remember. And I won't let you do it again."[/quote'] I love the idea of a vengeful super bent on punishing them that they have to fight, all the while knowing that he's right. To the rest of the world he would be just another villain. What would be going through their heads as they stand on the podium wearing plastic smiles, shaking the Mayor of New York's hand and accepting his congratulations on stopping another menace to the great city? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... Time-chain confusion and/or disintegration is a cool idea and can be a handy mechanism, but use it sparingly. Either that, or work toward making it unclear which time stream the PCs really belong to. Small but persistent anomalies can crop up, and those can be very funny. In one temporal disintegration adventure I co-ran, one of those anomalies was that all the money said "In Baal We Trust" on it, and another was that one of the PCs found (from the posters plastered outside the group's HQ) that he was porn star. By that time, the world was well on its way to complete chronoentropic dissolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... chronoentropic dissolution Stolen and repped, that's a great term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... Stolen and repped' date=' that's a great term.[/quote'] I'm pretty sure I stole that term from somewhere myself. If I had to guess, it's from a Keith Laumer story that appeared in Analog circa 1970 as "The Timesweepers" and in paperback as "Dinosaur Beach". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... Nevertheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... A replay opportunity may come about. The PC's have already travelled back in time to fix a problem (and they are living out the new timeline)' date=' but they killed the time traveller who helped them (lest the good they did be undone by another - to be fair it was to preempt a successful alien invasion).[/quote'] Sounds to me like this group has already adopted a very "ends justify the means" aproach to Super'ing. That's fine if that's the approach you like (it's not the approach I like, so I'd be drawing them away from it). What if part of the anomalies are caused by the time traveler himself, who is alive after all (perhaps a version from the old timeline ravelling to the new timeline and seeing his "new timeline" self killed)? Let him approach the PC's with the opportunity to fix things, and correct the timeline "once again". He then uses this opportunity to make some changes in the PC's as well (some measure of oersonal control over them? Perhaps he is immune to their powers now?). With this the second time they use time travel to fix a problem, it probably also merits putting some roadblock to its use in the future, so the players don't get the idea they can always screw up and there will be a handy time-traveller to help fix things. As an example, maybe the time traveller tells them they, personally, are being destabilized by frequent time travel into their own pasts. "I can take you back, but there may be serious consequences". If they're real heroes, they'll do it anyway. If not, they get to face the wrath of the planet (especially since our time traveller can always go back and video them causing the tanker to fall). What's the impact on the characters? Hit them where they live - they lose a "piece" of their powers. Perhaps the chronal destabilization impacts the characters' personal timelines, costing them (say) all the xp they earned since the last time travel fix. A hefty price, but better than the characters being pariahs to the entire world, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 Re: What do you think... You're right about the whole "ends justify the means" part. The team has been inching closer and closer to The Authority way of doing things over the course of the campaign. The tanker tragedy notwithstanding, they have been asking to be taken down a notch for a while now. Time to put my evil plotting cap on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Re: What do you think... Call it 11d6 killing vs PD, megascale area, does not affect flying characters/ vehicles. Followed by 30d6 normal damage vs ED, megascale area again, from the fires. In Manhattan I would abstract it by rolling 1d30 + 50 for percentage of buildings destroyed, and 3d3 for the millions of peopel killed. Subways, sewers, everything underground totaled. How are the PC's surviving this? Like the idea of turning back time, especally since you have already planted clues seting that up, but let them live with the consequences for a couple sessions first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Re: What do you think... I like the time-travel reset idea, and I especially like twisting it around on them. Let them fix this problem that way, and now make the timeline anomolies worse. Force them to do it again a few sessions down the line, and again make the anomolies worse. Keep turning up the heat on them until they want to go back in time just to undo what they did last time they went back in time. Eventually work it out so that the only way to keep the timeline stable is to undo everything they've fixed by time-traveling, and make them fight the aliens. Watch the director's cut of "The Butterfly Effect" for a nice downward spiral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Re: What do you think... Do you have a powerful villain who is noble in his own way already in the game? If so, I really have to second the idea of the villain who remembers what happened and makes it his personal duty to oppose the group of "dangerous renegade cowboy hypocrits" or whatever he'd call the PCs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Re: What do you think... One question yet to be asked in this thread is whether the devestation had a physical impact on the heroes. They were pretty close to Ground Zero - did they just float in the air and observe the effects vfrom afar, or did they try to do something about it, and therefore were closer to the point of impact? Have they been stunned/KO'd/Wounded/killed from the effects of the devestation? If they just hung there and did nothing, maybe some satelite photography caught that. Maybe it also caught their own culpability in the disaster. This would seem logical - the villain was making a substantial terrorist threat, so wouldn't the government(s) be gathering intel ASAP? And what happened to the terrorist himself? Perhaps he has been badlky injured, or even killed and he/his survivors hiure a lawyer to sue the heroes for their negligent actions. Perhaps, adding insult to injury, Campaign City is also named, as their tacit acceptance of vigilante action in the city was also negligent. Fire the people up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted July 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Re: What do you think... After realizing that they couldn't hold up the tanker they tried to force it's path over to one side so that it would fall clear of the island. Unfortunately they just didn't have the juice to move it very far, and they backed off right before impact. Afterwards they tried to help with rescue and evacuation, and only when it seemed that no more people were in immediate danger did they leave (and then they fled the country). The villainess who was holding the tanker up was killed in the fight, and her companions scattered once the PC's were distracted. Since the "demonstration" had been going on for about 20 minutes before the PC's arrived, there were plenty of news cameras and camcorders filming the events (though the ones closest to the action were probably not recovered). I'm really liking the suggestions so far guys, thanks for the great stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Re: What do you think... One further note...before hammering the characters in-game, it may not be a bad idea to talk to the players out of game. You note they've been drifting to the "ends justify the means" style for some time. Perhaps their expectations from the campaign aren't the same as yours and there's a need for closing this gap from a metagame perspective. Maybe start with asking them what kind of consequences they perceive as likely flowing from these events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Re: What do you think... After realizing that they couldn't hold up the tanker they tried to force it's path over to one side so that it would fall clear of the island. Unfortunately they just didn't have the juice to move it very far, and they backed off right before impact. Afterwards they tried to help with rescue and evacuation, and only when it seemed that no more people were in immediate danger did they leave (and then they fled the country). Fled the country...the media won't classify that as an admission of guilt, will they? The question now to be asked is realy what country would harbour them - after all, it COULD happen here! The villainess who was holding the tanker up was killed in the fight' date=' and her companions scattered once the PC's were distracted.[/quote'] Wrongful death suit from villainess's DNPC (and/or families of those killed in the disaster) Manslaughter charges (for villainess and/or the dead in the disaster) Hunted by her friends (many of whom will testify the heroes caused the tanker to fall and they always intended it only as a bluff) Since the "demonstration" had been going on for about 20 minutes before the PC's arrived' date=' there were plenty of news cameras and camcorders filming the events (though the ones closest to the action were probably not recovered).[/quote'] 20 minutes? Probably had some live feeds going out. Oh, yes, there's lots of very precise evidence of the "heros" actions. Say, why do they have to be Hunted by VILLAINS who remember what happened? Why not Heroes who remember (ie not people the press/the public will just dismiss as bad guys with an axe to grind)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted July 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Re: What do you think... The theme of the game is the exporation of the effects and consequences of the use of power, so I tend to let the players go in the direction that feels right for their characters. The problem with using another hero for the "I remember what you did" thing is that a hero might be listened to by the general public. If I use a villain, his or her only recourse would be to confront the PC's because no one would listen. Also I really like the idea of them being treated as heroes for beating up the one guy that knows the truth about them. If they walk away from that without a twinge of conscience then I can feel free to throw anything at them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Re: What do you think... and they backed off right before impact. Not very heroic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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