Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

What's interesting is the line is evolving along the simple product to advanced product lines. Buy sidekick. Add UMA, UV, Combat Handbook, Equipment Guide, Ultimate Base, etc. Eventually you will have everything for the system without buying the core rules.

 

At that point they just need to come out with the Ultimate Power so that you get an expanded power listing. Essentially one book per chapter of the 5ER.

 

From what I have seen of Sidekick, the good part is you don't HAVE to buy any og those other books. What not included is actually very little. Does it include Vehicle and Base rules?

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Oh, and can someone direct me to a thread, site, post or something that says just how DOJ/Hero is doing in the market objectively?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

But it doesn't have to be that way. Hero SHOULD be the ideal choice, or any generic system for that matter, because of the homogeneity of rules accross genres.

 

To a certain extent, Storyteller or *** are generic games that are customized for each genre. Unfortunately, the core of the game is geared towards a specific power level that is often challenging to extend to the multitude of genres Hero does so well. I think that's the key. Hero is a toolkit -- so treat it as such and build something with it, something specific.

 

The risk is that product will not be everything to everyone, but that's okay, and potentially that investment could be worth less than another generic-toolkit-expanding product that caters to the core of your market. I think the risk is worth it, but not necessarily for DoJ to take it.

 

I am happy to assume that risk. If Narosia is a flop, DoJ has lost nothing and I have lost sweat and tears that I would most likely have invested anyway for my own campaigns. It can be done in a cost effective manner, but a company like DoJ cannot do it without a good sense that this market really will support this style of product for the Hero System.

 

We'll see.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Oh' date=' and can someone direct me to a thread, site, post or something that says just how DOJ/Hero is doing in the market objectively?[/quote']

 

GAMA and DoJ are probably the only ones who know.

 

As for Sidekick contents, it does include Vehicle stats, but no construction rules, and no base rules.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Fair enough and probably correct' date=' but he did say unusual among HERO gamers, not all gamers which I would take to mean fans of the Hero System. If you want something "rules lite" with all the choices made for you already there's literally dozens, if not hundreds of settings and games out there for you to select from. Hero probably isn't your ideal choice.[/quote']

You're probably correct. We've already lost one 20 year Hero player to M&M and another is talking about going over as well. Maybe it's time to move on; maybe not.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

But it doesn't have to be that way. Hero SHOULD be the ideal choice, or any generic system for that matter, because of the homogeneity of rules accross genres.

 

To a certain extent, Storyteller or *** are generic games that are customized for each genre. Unfortunately, the core of the game is geared towards a specific power level that is often challenging to extend to the multitude of genres Hero does so well. I think that's the key. Hero is a toolkit -- so treat it as such and build something with it, something specific.

 

The risk is that product will not be everything to everyone, but that's okay, and potentially that investment could be worth less than another generic-toolkit-expanding product that caters to the core of your market. I think the risk is worth it, but not necessarily for DoJ to take it.

 

I am happy to assume that risk. If Narosia is a flop, DoJ has lost nothing and I have lost sweat and tears that I would most likely have invested anyway for my own campaigns. It can be done in a cost effective manner, but a company like DoJ cannot do it without a good sense that this market really will support this style of product for the Hero System.

 

We'll see.

I'm looking forward to Narosia. I'd even preorder a copy [as I just did with TAF:TFoW] if you had a paypal account set up. What I've seen and heard about the system you use has me intrigued. Please get it here soon!

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

But it doesn't have to be that way. Hero SHOULD be the ideal choice, or any generic system for that matter, because of the homogeneity of rules accross genres.

 

To a certain extent, Storyteller or *** are generic games that are customized for each genre. Unfortunately, the core of the game is geared towards a specific power level that is often challenging to extend to the multitude of genres Hero does so well. I think that's the key. Hero is a toolkit -- so treat it as such and build something with it, something specific.

 

The risk is that product will not be everything to everyone, but that's okay, and potentially that investment could be worth less than another generic-toolkit-expanding product that caters to the core of your market. I think the risk is worth it, but not necessarily for DoJ to take it.

 

I am happy to assume that risk. If Narosia is a flop, DoJ has lost nothing and I have lost sweat and tears that I would most likely have invested anyway for my own campaigns. It can be done in a cost effective manner, but a company like DoJ cannot do it without a good sense that this market really will support this style of product for the Hero System.

 

We'll see.

 

Any system is generic in the sense you can use it for anything. I tinkred with systems for years and I've yet to run into one that you can't hammer something else into. The only difference is the degree of effort it takes. Storyterller and the game that shall not be named aren't "generic" any more so than others beyond the fact you can use them for something else. You can Storyteller for Three's Company: The Rpg if you want, but you'd be flying pretty blind as far as making things up.

 

Hero is a great toolkiet because its open and accessible. Its not perfect, nothing is but its easy to tinker with and knock things around have some semblance of balance beyond "make things up, cross your fingers and pray" at least 90 percent of the time. I think that is the draw for many of the fans that come to it and enjoy it.

 

Games like Hero, Gurps, etc are "generic" because they're designed to be altered and tinkered with. That's what I like about them and I like to see that support and if not emphisized, not downplayed. If something else would increase sales, well, that's a hard choice to make and I don't DOJ their position in having to make it. If the line should change drastically, I'd stick with it for as long as I could, but might possibly move on to GURPS eventually. I don't know.

[sbarron]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Fair enough and probably correct' date=' but he did say unusual among HERO gamers, not all gamers which I would take to mean fans of the Hero System. If you want something "rules lite" with all the choices made for you already there's literally dozens, if not hundreds of settings and games out there for you to select from. Hero probably isn't your ideal choice.[/quote']Unless you like to play more than one type of genre and don't want to have to learn a new system every time you change between fantasy and sci-fi, or whatever.

 

I really think Hero can incorporate all the unique, setting/genre appropriate elements in their settings that other systems have that make those games "feel" so right. They just haven't done it yet. The trick is that you have to make those elements specific to that setting. While Hero is a generic system, that doesn't mean that it can't put things in a setting that are outside the "system" if it's appropriate to give that setting the right "feel." They encourage GMs to do such things in their own games all the time. I dont' see the difference if Hero decided to do it themselves in their own settings.

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

You're probably correct. We've already lost one 20 year Hero player to M&M and another is talking about going over as well. Maybe it's time to move on; maybe not.

 

Well, people come and people go as tastes change. I've personally introduced several D and D and one M and M player to Fantasy Hero and Champions and they've converted. I've heard of several more. It happens.

 

They're is really no such thing as betrayal when it comes to games. Play what you enjoy. If its not Hero or Hero and something, no problem with that in my mind.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Hero is a great toolkiet because its open and accessible. Its not perfect' date=' nothing is but its easy to tinker with and knock things around have some semblance of balance beyond "make things up, cross your fingers and pray" at least 90 percent of the time. [/quote']

 

That's exactly why I think its ideal. Narosia started out GURPS, swung d 20, and finally landed on Hero. As long as we toed the line system-wise in those other two, things were good. But when we got into the realm of rules modification to fit the setting, not so much. We haven't ran into that problem in Hero at all and what we've come up with is strengthened by your 90% comment.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love GURPS. But Narosia couldn't have the feel we want it to in GURPS, not without making a bunch of stuff up. This isn't the case in Hero, and even when we make stuff up... it's still by the rules. That's the beauty.

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Unless you like to play more than one type of genre and don't want to have to learn a new system every time you change between fantasy and sci-fi, or whatever.

 

I really think Hero can incorporate all the unique, setting/genre appropriate elements in their settings that other systems have that make those games "feel" so right. They just haven't done it yet. The trick is that you have to make those elements specific to that setting. While Hero is a generic system, that doesn't mean that it can't put things in a setting that are outside the "system" if it's appropriate to give that setting the right "feel." They encourage GMs to do such things in their own games all the time. I dont' see the difference if Hero decided to do it themselves in their own settings.

 

DOJ isn't going to be able to put out enough well supported setting for every genre to appeal to everyone. One reason is its totally a matter of opinion. I think Terran Empire, Turkanian Age and Hudson City have the perfect feels for their setting. For me at least, "Feel" isn't in the rules, at least not entirely and the seting that have been released do have different feels (like Valadorian Age has some specfic "genre" rules). For me at least, Terran Empire psionics feel different from Valdorian Mage, which feels differnt from Champions Superpowers, for one example. They're all built with the some basic tools though.

[sbarron]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Hero is a generic system that's good for almost any genre, which is certainly it's strength. I don't think they should ever move too far away from that. However, the settings HERO creates are equally generic. They leave tons of options open to gamers, not just to what type of characters and races to choose from, but at what power levels, what magic systems, what skills and talents to choose from as well. I think this creates generic settings, which lacks the style and soul, if I can say that about a setting, of a better defined and more more flavor filled worlds/settings.

 

I'm not suggesting Hero stop being a generic system. I'm suggesting they stop making generic settings. That is the only way I think any of HERos settings other than Champions will ever draw a larger audience.

[arcady]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I have been (very slowly) working on a 5th Edition of KAZEI 5. But my ability to do things publicly are limited until after HERO produces (I hope) some sort of CYBER HERO supplement. And that's not until 2007' date=' if I'm lucky.[/quote']So they actually do plan to do a Cyber-Hero 5e?

 

If so, I hope it focuses more in 90's and 00's Cyberpunk (post and transhumanism) than 80s dribble...

 

The only Cyberpunk game so far with a decent netrunning system is Ex Machina - one of the two methods is based on the real net advanced through nueral ware and faster connections. Skill rolls to hack security, no walking around and battling ICE-Ninjas... Layout based on info-relevance and what you search for/on and not 'walk five virtual blocks and past the virtual $tarbuck$ to get to the IBM plant'.

 

That was the real mess of Cyber-Hero... it's netrunning system - based on the Gibsonian idea that was already outmoded by the time Neuromancer was published.

 

 

I've got a complete Cyberpunk setting, but not adopted to hero at present as there's no real prepped-tools in Hero 5e for that sort of thing.

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Hero is a generic system that's good for almost any genre, which is certainly it's strength. I don't think they should ever move too far away from that. However, the settings HERO creates are equally generic. They leave tons of options open to gamers, not just to what type of characters and races to choose from, but at what power levels, what magic systems, what skills and talents to choose from as well. I think this creates generic settings, which lacks the style and soul, if I can say that about a setting, of a better defined, of more flavorful worlds/settings.

 

I'm not suggesting Hero stop being a generic system. I'm suggesting they stop making generic settings. That is the only way I think any of HERos settings other than Champions will ever draw a larger audience.

 

Terran Empire and the others have psionic systems, magic systems, suggested power levels, skills and talents. They just don't do the White wolf thing and go "This is how you MUST DO IT or your doing it WRONG!" or there more "calm" stance lately "You can change this....if you really want to, I mean if you really think that's wise..." with an implied eye roll. I like that in Terran Empire you can play scrub dirt farmers on some backwater or play Galactic Heroes with their own battleship without feeling like your "cheating" by starting at something other than the suggested levels. and I think those setting have plenty of "flavor". They're not weird for the sake of being weird like some other things, but they have flavor.

 

Maybe I'm in the minority there, but I like the setting so far just fine.

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

So they actually do plan to do a Cyber-Hero 5e?

 

If so, I hope it focuses more in 90's and 00's Cyberpunk (post and transhumanism) than 80s dribble...

 

The only Cyberpunk game so far with a decent netrunning system is Ex Machina - one of the two methods is based on the real net advanced through nueral ware and faster connections. Skill rolls to hack security, no walking around and battling ICE-Ninjas... Layout based on info-relevance and what you search for/on and not 'walk five virtual blocks and past the virtual $tarbuck$ to get to the IBM plant'.

 

That was the real mess of Cyber-Hero... it's netrunning system - based on the Gibsonian idea that was already outmoded by the time Neuromancer was published.

 

 

I've got a complete Cyberpunk setting, but not adopted to hero at present as there's no real prepped-tools in Hero 5e for that sort of thing.

 

Netrunning is always a trial to handle. On one hand, I like the "Gibsonian" ideal. Its more interactive and interesting, but its not very technically accurate. Maybe two systems, one for "cinematic" cyberpunk and one for Hard Sci Fi cyberpunk...

[Susano]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

So they actually do plan to do a Cyber-Hero 5e?

 

If so, I hope it focuses more in 90's and 00's Cyberpunk (post and transhumanism) than 80s dribble...

 

The only Cyberpunk game so far with a decent netrunning system is Ex Machina - one of the two methods is based on the real net advanced through nueral ware and faster connections. Skill rolls to hack security, no walking around and battling ICE-Ninjas... Layout based on info-relevance and what you search for/on and not 'walk five virtual blocks and past the virtual $tarbuck$ to get to the IBM plant'.

 

That was the real mess of Cyber-Hero... it's netrunning system - based on the Gibsonian idea that was already outmoded by the time Neuromancer was published.

 

 

I've got a complete Cyberpunk setting, but not adopted to hero at present as there's no real prepped-tools in Hero 5e for that sort of thing.

 

Netrunning in KAZEI 5 is very much up in the air still. I don't know what feel I want for it. I liked the virtual world feel, since it seemed very anime, and may keep it -- just because. But then, netrunning was never that big a deal for me in the game.

 

IMO, CYBERHERO 5e should contain several netrunning styles, ranging from classic net-avatars, to stuff like THE MATRIX, to pure data searches and the like.

[Susano]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Netrunning is always a trial to handle. On one hand' date=' I like the "Gibsonian" ideal. Its more interactive and interesting, but its not very technically accurate. Maybe two systems, one for "cinematic" cyberpunk and one for Hard Sci Fi cyberpunk...[/quote']

 

Gets my vote.

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

On the matter of setting, what would make Turkanian Age, for example, more fleshed out? The book currently has maps, descriptions of several countries and cultures, several example races (some of the unique to the world not D and D rip offs, some of them familiar), systems for Divine and Secular magic with different colleges and cultural differences, package deals, suggested starting point levels and a small selection of antagonists and monsters rounding out the 318 pages. Its not an incredibly strange and exotic setting, no, but to be blunt the most popular games right are not are essentially retreads of the same old thing.

 

Edit: Oh and a timeline covering several centuries

 

OTOH, Valadorian Age does feel skimpy only really touching on a single city in any detail, but it does have a really neat magic system, IMO.

 

Terran Empire falls somewhere in between these two extremes, IMO. What would make them more fleshed out and non generic?

 

Edit: Is it color art? Game fiction? that sort of thing?

Ediit: Jargon? I've found that for those that think Hero is "generic" just changing what some things are called helps immensely. Instead of Endurance Reserve its a "Mana Pool" or "Psi Points" or instead of Speed its "Actions per turn" for example.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

TA seems too innaccessible to players. The races are there, but they aren't. TA makes the assumption you have FH to back it up. Players don't need FH - FH is about fantasy setting design and not about how to make a cool character. It's too much in general, with too many options specifically.

 

I think TA is a wonderfully detailed setting that is missing a players guide and a summary how how to build a TA character that someone can digest in a single session.

 

Invite some friends over, give them a few pages to read so they understand the world, and they should be able to create a character in an hour or two. That's where the break point is. TA is complete in many respects, but it falls back to presentation. Perhaps the assumption is that the GM would be the advisor that puts it all in perspective, but you can't really sit down with Sidekick and TA and make a character if you've never played Hero before.

[arcady]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Netrunning is always a trial to handle. On one hand' date=' I like the "Gibsonian" ideal. Its more interactive and interesting, but its not very technically accurate. Maybe two systems, one for "cinematic" cyberpunk and one for Hard Sci Fi cyberpunk...[/quote']This is what Ex machina does. It presents rules systems for both styles and then lets you pick.

 

After reading the Gibsonian one enough to review it I've ignored it completely. The entire concept of it bugs me like a pack of fleas in hanging out in one's underwear...

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

TA seems too innaccessible to players. The races are there, but they aren't. TA makes the assumption you have FH to back it up. Players don't need FH - FH is about fantasy setting design and not about how to make a cool character. It's too much in general, with too many options specifically.

 

I think TA is a wonderfully detailed setting that is missing a players guide and a summary how how to build a TA character that someone can digest in a single session.

 

Invite some friends over, give them a few pages to read so they understand the world, and they should be able to create a character in an hour or two. That's where the break point is. TA is complete in many respects, but it falls back to presentation. Perhaps the assumption is that the GM would be the advisor that puts it all in perspective, but you can't really sit down with Sidekick and TA and make a character if you've never played Hero before.

 

Thing is, I did that. I got five people together that had only played D and D and ran a short Turkanian Age game with themto "convert" them to Fantasy Hero. I'd breifed them on creating Hero character before and let them flip threw the book to get ideas. Most of the picked up something from the package deals since they were used to "classes". Pick a racial template if you want and we were off. There's always the possiblity my experience was unique or very rare, but its shaped my expectations of the system.

 

Edit: Cleaned up some typos

And to be completely fair, TA does says its a setting book for Fantasy Hero so writing it with the assumption you have Fantasy Hero would be pretty acceptable IMO). The preposed Fantasy Sidekick should be completely standalone though.

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

This is what Ex machina does. It presents rules systems for both styles and then lets you pick.

 

After reading the Gibsonian one enough to review it I've ignored it completely. The entire concept of it bugs me like a pack of fleas in hanging out in one's underwear...

 

Is your review posted anywhere? (PM me since its off topic)

[arcady]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

TA seems too innaccessible to players. The races are there' date=' but they aren't. TA makes the assumption you have FH to back it up. Players don't need FH - FH is about fantasy setting design and not about how to make a cool character. It's too much in general, with too many options specifically.[/quote']I've always seen Fantasy Hero as a book for both.

 

It's one of the Hero books I recommend even to people who don't play hero. The best way to learn how to play Fantasy in GURPS for example is to read Fantasy Hero, not GURPS Fantasy.

 

I think it's a safe gamble to make to assume familiarity with Fantasy Hero before using one of the settings built for it.

 

In my review of Turakian Age I said something to the effect of 'DnD fantasy done better than DnD can'. It has all the things that people remember fondly when they think of what makes a DnD game good, and none of the things that trip up DnD enough to eventually make the game a chore and exercise in denial of perception over inconsistancy and illogic.

 

I'd love to be in a Turakian Age game, but at present I'm the only person I know willing to GM Hero...

[arcady]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

My reviews of both Ex Machina, Turakian Age, and a number of on-topic Hero items are all on rpg.net.

 

Go here:

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml

and enter 'arcady' under the 'reviewer name' field.

 

For a while I was officially reviewing books for Hero, but then I fell behind and haven't caught back up yet.

[sbarron]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

On the matter of setting, what would make Turkanian Age, for example, more fleshed out? The book currently has maps, descriptions of several countries and cultures, several example races (some of the unique to the world not D and D rip offs, some of them familiar), systems for Divine and Secular magic with different colleges and cultural differences, package deals, suggested starting point levels and a small selection of antagonists and monsters rounding out the 318 pages. Its not an incredibly strange and exotic setting, no, but to be blunt the most popular games right are not are essentially retreads of the same old thing.

 

Edit: Oh and a timeline covering several centuries

 

OTOH, Valadorian Age does feel skimpy only really touching on a single city in any detail, but it does have a really neat magic system, IMO.

 

Terran Empire falls somewhere in between these two extremes, IMO. What would make them more fleshed out and non generic?

 

Edit: Is it color art? Game fiction? that sort of thing?

This is exaclty the problem. Where's the hook? Where's the style? Where's the thing that would grab a readers attention and scream "PLAY ME!!!?" These settings have all of the elements, sure, but they lack something to cause me to be interested. What is that thing? I'm not sure, however...

 

1) Stylish art that consistantly gives a feel to the setting (B&W or color),

2) Some cool game mechanic that players have to try,

3) Something unique in the setting that sets it apart,

4) Game fiction would be good,

5) others...

 

all of these are what are missing. Look at the rulebook for Warhammer 40k, or the Inquisitor e-book I posted yesteday, or Exalted. They just ooze the setting on every page. The art conveys to the reader how cool the setting can be. The game fiction just adds to that. HERO has nothing like this (except in USPDB, which has the case logs and photos, which I think were a big hit with everyone). That is the kind of thing that can bring a setting to life for players.

 

And that is what is missing from HEROs settings. There is nothing to grab the attention of a casual reader/viewer. It has the parts, but it lacks the hook. Would you randomly pick up the Turakian Age and buy if you weren't a Hero gamer? No, you wouldn't. The inside art is generic and inconsistant. The cover, quite frankly, is cheesy. Nothing about the book will make you notice it, which is what you need to attract people other than Hero gamers. And the stuff inside, for the most part, is good stuff. But without a hook, it's just another generic setting in a sea of so many. Move along, random gamer, nothing to see here...