Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

[arcady]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Hmmm..you have a good point here. I can understand requiring FREd or the 5ER to play' date=' (just as XnX requires the Players Handbook to play) but a fully fleshed out settings book shouldn't require anything else to get started. All of the relevant package deals, weapons writeups, creatures etc should all be included in the settings book[/quote']I on the other hand disagree.

 

I think its a perfectly logical buy in strategy, and thus perfectly logical for a game company to push; to do as follows:

 

rulebook

genre book

setting book

setting add ons (adventures or 'region x' or etc).

 

With a presumption that if you buy any item on the list, you already have the ones before it.

 

I do -NOT- want page count in my fantasy setting wasted on telling me how to make something already covered in my genre book. The setting is just a setting, and that's all I want in it. I do want to know what it has that is different from the genre norms, but I do not want the genre norms repeated.

 

I feel it is perfectly acceptable to assume someone buys in the above order - or at least has that on hand for their group.

 

An alternate 'player buy-in' path might be:

 

rulebook

rules option for character type X book

samples of character type or rules option X

 

For example - the ultimate series.

 

Again, if you were to buy 'Vehicle Sourcebook' and then complain that it made you need 'The Ultimate Vehicle', I would answer that that is perfectly logical - you bought in the wrong order.

 

 

Its kind of like this:

 

rulebook: screw driver, nails, wood

genre book: union guy with a carpenter's education and skills

setting book: blueprints and work order for the union guy to do something other than a coffee break.

 

adventure: a finished birdhouse.

my gaming group: a bunch of pigeons ready to move in.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

FH Battlegrounds and Champions Battlegrounds are my two favorite recent Hero purchases for exactly those reasons: they're full of bits I can use in my own campaign when I don't have time to draw up my own castle' date=' or the PCs take a sudden left turn in a direction I'm not prepared for. I know those aren't adventures, per se, but they're the closest DOJ has done lately.[/quote']If you don't already have it, you might be interested in Villainy Amok.

 

[/shameless plug]

[arcady]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

What if the settings produced are not selling, not because they are generic or not "flashily presented" (personally I think both of those things are true, but still...) but for another reason?

Do we know they are 'not selling'? Are Hero's sales of its settings any worse than the industry norm for non-*** product in porportion to their rules?

 

If GURPS sells X:Y ratio of rules to settings, is the rate for Hero known to be X:(Y/Z)?

 

I've always gathered that Hero's settings did rather well with fans of Hero. If there's a problem, its that there aren't enough Hero fans.

 

Let's face it, Munchkin Realms is -not- bought by probably over 90% of DnD players. Why bother, if the GM already has a copy or you're playing is Goth-Lands, Bland-hawk, Munchkeron, or one of a thousand and one other ***/DnD settings...

 

In the DnD groups I've been with usually only the most -hardcore- of us buy anything beyond a PHB. I've got a pool of about 30 DnD gamers on hand, and I only know of 4 purchases of settings in there, and one of those sold his back to the store. Two of them are ultra DnD geeks - if it has a WotC label on it they own it. The last is me and that's as I was one of 5 GMs...

 

 

Certainly lack of flash works against impulse purchases - and that effects the core rules too

The core rulebook -IS- too big. In my group, only one other player has been willing to buy it, and he plans to sell it back. Everyone else just feels it is too big and too pricey and they're not willing to settle for a 'half the rules' book like Sidekick. About half of these people are long time Hero fans. Oddly, the one who bought it was new to Hero - but he's also an impulse buyer who sells about half his entire life possessions off on eBay every month...

 

Last Wednesday I did get two people in my Ex Machina game to possibly be interested in getting Sidekick, but only after I pointed out that Hero has local offices and they might be able to cash in on a damaged copy next time it shows up on the website...

 

The main book is still just too big. It is visually imposing. It is not the only RPG in it's price range, in fact GURPS 4e is more, but it 'looks worse' because of the physical presense of that masive volume. It's almost as big as my unabridged new Black's Law Dictionary... (and it has the same basic color...).

 

OK, but what about people who know what they want? In short, there's plenty of Hero system GMs, and a fairish number are interested in Fantasy or Sci Fi (or even Superheroes, fer Grond's sake!) Why don't they buy settings books?

Perhaps the people who would buy settings are buying these settings...? Do we know one way or the other?

 

Personally, I've even bought Hero settings for genres I refuse to use Hero for, as I like the settings Hero puts out...

 

Like I said for my review of Turakian Age (A genre I do use Hero for), it did DnD better than DnD does. It captured that subgenre of fantasy in a more playable and enjoyable manner.

 

I found Turakian age exciting, full of detail, and yet highly consistant both internally and to the 'action gamer fantasy' genre that I tend to call 'DnD genre'. A lot of past settings that worked at its level of detail lost the 'DnD feel', but this one had more DnD than DnD did... and yet also let me make rich characters that I didn't have to 'slot out' my internal logic processor to be able to use.

 

What you get is a very bare-bones setting, with one or two locales described in detail. Very few NPCs, few to no "setting-specific" critters. No adventures (a few adventure seeds, if you are lucky).

I didn't get that impression at all from either of the fantasy settings, nor the default supers setting. V-age is thin, but focused, and that works just fine for its genre. There are large expanses out there that are undetailed, but that is common in setting books - even the top settings in the gaming hobby are like that. I've got all the setting I need for several campaigns in VA, TA, and Champions (if I was willing to use Hero for supers). I don't like the -feel- of Champions, and I don't like the meta-verse that ties the Hero settings together, nor the over-presence of caucasians in T-Age, but if I didn't have those concerns they would be ideal choices. All the things I need for ready gaming are there.

 

A GM - even an experienced Hero system GM - can't sit down with these settings books and throw a game together. He/she has to generate a mass of NPCs, a mass of setting-specific monsters and then start putting them together into adventures. In other words, you need to do 90% of the work that you would like to avoid when you buy a setting.

 

I'd need the same work for a Munchkin Realms campaign, unless I started at around level 16-20+. And if I used the Champions setting I'd have a wealth of NPCs that is unmatched even by using Marvel or DC...

 

If I want to 'sit down and run' I don't buy a setting, I buy a module. I didn't like the aliens module in Fantasy Adventures, but otherwise that was a pack of modules any GM could sit down and run - setting regardless if subgenre of fantasy matches.

 

Most people who want a premade setting don't WANT a detailed base on which they can build their own unique game. They want something they can pick up and use. They don't need or want to know how many swordmakers there are in "campaign city" - they want something they can run tonight at 6:30 when the players turn up.

 

And the current settings don't offer that - but WW and Forgotten Realms do.

I think this is what people buy Modules for, not Settings. People -DO- buy settings to get all of that swordmakers detail. Otherwise you can go just fine with modules and home adventures without ever noting the setting.

 

Settings are not intended for 'instant use' they are intended as toolsets to give players character backdrop and ideas, and to tell GMs how to lay in their adventures and what else they can do within the chosen framework. They also stand as answers to all the wierd questions that pop up in a game, such as 'how easily can I find a guy who makes swords in this town?'

 

Or from my game last week 'Hey, can we search this guy's neural buffer without a warrant?' and 'what's the law for unionizing here?'

 

A setting is there to keep you from going 'uh...' when something odd like that pops up as suddenly relevant to the game.

 

Settings are the tools for building adventures and characters that fit a theme. Not the actual adventure or character. That is true even with WotC and WW's material.

 

Otherwise, if you want ready to run, you go for modules.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

They claim there's no money in them and that as a result writing them takes them away from other money making efforts.

 

I have no source of information to prove or disprove that the claim. All I know is that the lack of adventures is one factor that resulted in me losing all interest in anything besides their core rulebook and the ultimate products.

...which would make them the perfect choice for a group of developers in love with the Hero system who aren't interested in making money through them....

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I on the other hand disagree.

 

hmmmmm....

 

I think its a perfectly logical buy in strategy, and thus perfectly logical for a game company to push; to do as follows:

 

rulebook

genre book

setting book

setting add ons (adventures or 'region x' or etc).

 

With a presumption that if you buy any item on the list, you already have the ones before it.

 

I understand this reasoning and can't really fault it. Its a good strategy for a company that wants to survive in a niche market.

 

I do -NOT- want page count in my fantasy setting wasted on telling me how to make something already covered in my genre book. The setting is just a setting, and that's all I want in it. I do want to know what it has that is different from the genre norms, but I do not want the genre norms repeated.

 

Perhaps you misunderstand me somewhat.

 

I agree that material shouldn't be repeated in multiple books with a few exceptions (such as The Ultimate Vehicle reprinting the vehicle size chart, or the UMA including Martial Maneuvers from the main rulesbook for completeness) but the point that I was attempting to get at is that the package deals and races etc, should be completely customized for the campaign setting itself. Instead of the Turakian Age including the generic template for Barbarian from Fantasy Hero, it should provide a package deal for a specific cultural barbarian that is unique to its own setting and is somewhat (to significantly) different from the standard stereotype. I have no problem with a campaign setting stating: Additional package deals can be found in FANTASY HERO, many of which are relevant to this campaign setting and its purchase is recommended when using this campaign, but it shouldn't be required and certainly not assumed that the user purchase Fantasy Hero in order to make Turakian Age playable. Reprinting a few pages worth of Weapons charts or reprinting a couple of racial package deals isn't a big deal at all. In fact, the creators should go out of their way to make sure the package deals are unique (compared to the generic ones in Fantasy Hero) and the weapons charts include many weapons and items unique to the setting, just to set it apart.

 

I feel it is perfectly acceptable to assume someone buys in the above order - or at least has that on hand for their group.

 

No, that is not acceptable.

 

Not everyone has the funds to purchase every single book relevant to the campaign setting. Perhaps a teenager with limited funds wants to game with Hero and use the Turakian Age setting. He needs the Hero System 5th Edition or Revised Edition. Okay, that $30. He needs Turakian Age for the campaign setting. Okay another $20. Uh oh. I also need Fantasy Hero...thats an additional $25 down the drain..and also the Beastiary...damn another $20! I'm completely broke now, and my car needs an oil change. Not acceptable.

 

 

An alternate 'player buy-in' path might be:

 

rulebook

rules option for character type X book

samples of character type or rules option X

 

For example - the ultimate series.

 

Again, if you were to buy 'Vehicle Sourcebook' and then complain that it made you need 'The Ultimate Vehicle', I would answer that that is perfectly logical - you bought in the wrong order.

 

I consider this a seperate situation. The Vehicles Sourcebook is not a campaign setting. It is an expansion book to The Ultimate Vehicle, thus requiring TUV to get the most from the Vehicles Sourcebook is perfectly valid. Turakian Age is not an expansion of Fantasy Hero....its supposed to be a stand alone campaign setting. Requiring additional books to begin play is, IMO unacceptable. Its bad enough to even get startin in Turakian Age you need FREd, the Beastiary and the Turakian Age setting book. Adding Fantasy Hero on top of all that is a wallet buster in an already expensive hobby.

 

Its kind of like this:

 

rulebook: screw driver, nails, wood

genre book: union guy with a carpenter's education and skills

setting book: blueprints and work order for the union guy to do something other than a coffee break.

 

adventure: a finished birdhouse.

my gaming group: a bunch of pigeons ready to move in.

 

The way I see it is:

 

Rulesbook: Basic tools and Materials

 

Expansion Supplements: (Beastiary, Ultimate series, Gadgets book etc) additional materials

 

Genrebook: How to build guide. This tells you how to use your tools and materials to build the birdhouse.

 

Setting book: Pre-built birdhouse. You may want to use your tools to customize it a bit, maybe change the paint scheme, but in general, you don't need the How-to-build book, because its already done for you.

 

Adventure: Add-ons to turn your bird-house into a bird-mansion.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

The lack of adventure modules certainly doesn't bother me ... I never liked them to begin with.

 

But, the lack of detailed information on gaming worlds from a pure Story POV is slightly discouraging. DOJ has done an excellent job of giving you the gritty details and the rules behind it all and leads on more ideas.

 

from what I can gather, I don't own the setting books, the ones presented are Rules Heavy and Story Light. If they were to balance out a bit, it might help alleviate some issues. Even if that means dividing a book into two seperate books.

 

Just a thought.

[archermoo]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

The way I see it is:

 

Rulesbook: Basic tools and Materials

 

Expansion Supplements: (Beastiary, Ultimate series, Gadgets book etc) additional materials

 

Genrebook: How to build guide. This tells you how to use your tools and materials to build the birdhouse.

 

Setting book: Pre-built birdhouse. You may want to use your tools to customize it a bit, maybe change the paint scheme, but in general, you don't need the How-to-build book, because its already done for you.

 

Adventure: Add-ons to turn your bird-house into a bird-mansion.

 

While I could certainly be wrong, I don't think that is what HERO means by those. While I would agree with your Rulesbook and Expansion Supplements books, I would disagree with the Genrebook. I see the Genrebook to be exactly that, a book for that genre. Specific rules for that genre (both changes and clarifications) additional material specifically for the genre, as well as general tips on how to run a campaign in that genre. That is what the existing genre books look like to me. All the rules to run, for instance, a Fantasy Hero campaign, along with tips on how to set the world up. The setting books then add on to that.

[BlackSword]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

While I could certainly be wrong' date=' I don't think that is what HERO means by those. While I would agree with your Rulesbook and Expansion Supplements books, I would disagree with the Genrebook. I see the Genrebook to be exactly that, a book for that genre. Specific rules for that genre (both changes and clarifications) additional material specifically for the genre, as well as general tips on how to run a campaign in that genre. That is what the existing genre books look like to me. All the rules to run, for instance, a Fantasy Hero campaign, along with tips on how to set the world up. The setting books then add on to that.[/quote']

I would agree if (and its a big if) Fantasy Hero was simply Hero rules applied to a fantasy setting. Its not. It does contain a section on Hero rules and the unique aspects of Fantasy, but it also talks about world-building, the history of Fantasy, etc. If Fantasy Hero was more like the Champions book I would agree with the trickle down effect that is suggested.

[Markdoc]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I think you've nailed it' date=' at least from my POV. That would also attract more of the do it yourself-ers, like me, because even if the overall setting is not something you're going to run, there are still pieces you can use in your own setting. FH Battlegrounds and Champions Battlegrounds are my two favorite recent Hero purchases for exactly those reasons: they're full of bits I can use in my own campaign when I don't have time to draw up my own castle, or the PCs take a sudden left turn in a direction I'm not prepared for. I know those aren't adventures, per se, but they're the closest DOJ has done lately. And if I'm not mistaken, they both made money, right? I've never understood DOJ's aversion to publishing adventures. Maybe they have a perfectly valid reason, but I don't get it. [/quote']

 

It's not just DOJ - have a look around: most gaming companies don't produce much in the way of "modules" any more. What's available is mostly supplied by little fan-driven companies or is rehashes of already released stuff.

 

The simple reason is that modules are relatively high in terms of resources invested (especially art/maps, which *cost* when you are doing this commercially). The publishing and distribution costs are not that much less than a regular-sized book - but the acceptable price, compared to a standard rulebook or a full-sized genrebook is much less. Add that to the fact that modules have by definition a smaller target market than genre books. Not everyone who buys Hero system will buy Fantasy Hero and not everyone who buys Fantasy hero will buy Turakian Age. But it's a pretty safe bet that few people will buy Turakian age, who *haven't* bought Fantasy Hero... Modules for the Turakian age setting are going to be even further down the tree in terms of market potential.

 

This is *precisely* why WOTC have gone the route they have. Get the fans or fan-driven microcompanies to produce the modules. If they sell, good - that helps move the core rulebooks. If not, well hey, plenty more microcompanies where they came from.

 

There are a few companies that scrape a living off releasing "modules". One that I do a little work for - Tentacles Press - actually tends to sell out every product they produce. But it's all fan-driven. People write the material or supply the art in exchange for their name in print and a copy of the finished product. And their product, though pretty good for a microcompany, does not meet the kind of production values we expect from DOJ. But nonetheless, their best selling products, are exactly what I described. Setting books, that combine enough background to allow the GM to cover his *** when unexpected questions arise (well, most of the time - no amount of preparation wil cover everything, but then that's why we have a GM) together with a series of linked adventures so that a GM can pick the thing up and run a game with minimal prep.

 

Sure it's prepackaged pap - the McDonalds of roleplaying. But the Pavis books from Tentacles gave us several years of actually pretty good roleplaying. When the same GM tried to run - with the same system, same basic background and same group of players - his own game, it fell apart after only 4 sessions, as he ran dry on inspiration. There is clearly a market for such products.

 

Some GM's (I'm one) will not "buy and use" (I'm currently cannibalising the same series of adventures, but the goal and setting will be very different) - but judging by the market, there are many who will. That's your target audience.

 

cheers, Mark

[archermoo]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I would agree if (and its a big if) Fantasy Hero was simply Hero rules applied to a fantasy setting. Its not. It does contain a section on Hero rules and the unique aspects of Fantasy' date=' but it also talks about world-building, the history of Fantasy, etc. If Fantasy Hero was more like the Champions book I would agree with the trickle down effect that is suggested.[/quote']

 

Well, it has all of the same type of info that the Champs book has, which is to say the info I mentioned as being part of a genre book. It just has additional info on top of that. And is about twice the size of the Champs book, so has room for all the extra info.

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

(snip)

 

Most people who want a premade setting don't WANT a detailed base on which they can build their own unique game. They want something they can pick up and use. They don't need or want to know how many swordmakers there are in "campaign city" - they want something they can run tonight at 6:30 when the players turn up.

 

And the current settings don't offer that - but WW and Forgotten Realms do.

 

cheers, Mark

 

The whole post was well-stated, snipped only to cut to the part I wanted to ask about...

 

I agree with this, but I thought this is what Turakian Age and Champions Universe do? Do they not? I don't buy those products as I don't want a premade setting, so my ignorance. I assume you're not criticizing the genre books for this as the genre books aren't intended to do this...since I nearly-exclusively build those suit my needs quite well (whether they support a large enough market being a different issue).

 

The question isn't just to Markdoc but to anyone.

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Wouldn't answering that question be going over old ground?

 

Personally, I don't want Hero to remain strictly a toolkit. I don't want the focus to shift entirely to the proposed "showboat" setting. And given the size of DOJ that seems like what they would have to do to give the treatment that is apparently desired. Improving sales would be great, things like the genre sidekicks are cool idea, but OTOH how much do you want to whore to the lowest common denominator to increase them? There's alot of things that could be changed to make Hero more mass market appeal. Many of these might change the fundamentals are what the game is. Speaking for myself, that's what I'm concerned about. If the showboat could be handled and I'd know there would still be support (and not just lip service) given to the toolkit I'd be much hesistant about the idea.

An interesting/important question is "does Hero need to sell beyond a limited base?" Can it be made profitable enough for "a guy" to run, with fewer products, less effort (except for QA across the board - website, marketing, materials, etc.)? Right now it's, what, a 5 person company, or such? What if it were a 1-person company with most everything outsourced, the person just dictates development direction and assures quality? What would be so bad so long as it still catered to those who want the crunchy Hero system as it already stands? Don't you (directed at anyone) think that if the line so encouraged we'd just have more fan-based products, then? We didn't in the "bad old days" but I think that had a lot to do with the ill will generated by the company and its continued well-intended (presumably) but empty promises of "soon". If they'd been honest and if the Fuzion debacle hadn't occurred, I think the community would have been a lot more company-supportive.

 

Just food for thought, really, I'm asking the questions and leading in answers but only for sake of exploration.

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

An individual person could make any of the choices but the vast majority of the population would choose the Forgotten Realms world/setting using the D&D rules.

 

Why?

 

More people play in the Forgotten Realms because of D&D than play D&D because of the Forgotten Realms. They'd say I want to run a new D&D campaign and then find a world, not say I want to run a game in a new world and then find a rule system or use the rule system linked to that world.

 

Try to recruit players for a new D&D game in an world they never heard of. Try to recruit players for a world they already know using another rules system. See which one is more popular.

 

Bottom line, it is way harder to get people to try a new rules system than a new setting/world.

 

A "Fully Developed World" setting for the HERO System would certainly be nice to have because it would be an excellent showcase what the HERO System can do. But it would be a time-consuming and expensive long-shot attempt to attract hordes of new Herophiles.

A Fantasy Hero Sidekick would be a more efficient way to draw new players into the HERO System than yet another Fantasy setting. Once you have them into the HERO System then you can get them to try the new setting.

I think Savage Worlds challenges this notion. I think they are selling themselves as a rules system. Now, as a rules system, they have an overt prejudice in many regards and aren't as "realistic" as Hero, but I think they've done a tremendous job of attracting attention towards their system as a semi-generic one, one which can be easily used adapted to be reasonably generic and attracts tinkerers and "I just wanna play" crowd alike.

 

Perhaps another thought is to ask, "What is SW doing that Hero isn't, in terms of marketing? Is that even desirable, and can it be made compatible?"

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

(snip)

 

Another problem they must be experiencing is their publishing schedule was front loaded with many of the most interesting products with the broadest appeal printed first. They published a lot of big, significant books early on like the main rule book, bestiary, UMA, the core Champions books, and the Star HERO genre book. Since then they've pushed out most of the remaining key books, like Fantasy HERO. What's left? Items that are more and more niche and/or special interest oriented. That is a tough nut to crack.

 

Great point about the most interesting products having come out first. It was unavoidable but so is the "what do we do now?" conundrum.

 

As a side note, I think Hero should realize that they are most interesting to a small but voracious audience purely for rules stuff. I think a Hero Almanac or such with rules ideas and options put out on a yearly basis would sell like hotcakes among its core audience, particularly if it is NOT presented as "you must have this to play," so as to avoid the taint of "constant upgrade marketing push" associated with WOTC. I think similar products, especially PDFs, would do well also.

 

I don't suggest this would solve the profitability issue, but I think it would help. I think in some ways DOJ is (understandably due to limited resources, so I'm not trying to be critical per se) ignoring its core audience in terms of how that core audience can be easily "milked" (or put better, catered to).

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

(snip) I truly hate to sound negative, because I share Bill's view of people who just want to whine and don't want to do anything about it, but I have a hard time seeing how this kind of project could be successful.

 

The less "generic" a setting becomes, the more polarizing it becomes. In other words, for a setting to be non-generic, it needs to make decisions, set down assumptions, detail world ground rules, etc. And every time it does this, it increases the number of people who won't like it.

 

I think both generic and "polarizing" (good perspective, actually) products that prop up Hero are good, though, as any one of them can entice a person to become interested as "their" idea is addressed, whether in part or in whole. Also, I think more licensed products makes it seem like a groundswell of interest - that can't be bad.

 

Increasingly in the non-mainstream parts of the music industry, fans are simply making music and selling it to or performing it for each other, frankly. I think there's nothing wrong if the Hero crowd ends up doing much the same...I don't see the Hero crowd itself passing up on Hero books for the fan books, at least not in any significant numbers.

 

The weird thing is, though, at least in my experience, whenever this complaint comes up, it follows a predictable pattern...

 

Person A: "Y'Know, Hero Games should really publish a fully-detailed setting."

Person B: "Yeah. Look how successful Forgotten Realms and World of Darkness are. Hero needs something like that."

Person C: "Yep, I agree. Hero requires GM's to put in a lot of work already. They'd get more players if they had plug-n-play world settings for them."

Person D: "It would be cool, I agree. 'Course, I pretty much make up all my own stuff anyway, so it's not so much for me personally."

Person C: "Me either."

Person B: "Me either."

Person A: "Me either."

(pause)

Person A: "But all those other people... they're all just dying for Hero to make a big campaign setting."

 

But is this because the discussion is among relative insiders to begin with?

 

Although you are correct, indeed.

 

If you solely addressed the first factor, you could devote the whole production schedule to superheroics, dropping the whole angle of the HERO System as a multi-genre game, and focussing entirely on making it the best superhero game. If you solely addressed the second factor, you could focus on expanding the line to cover as many genres as possible, as quickly as possible, because most folks will want to see (for example) "Cyberpunk HERO" before deciding to use the HERO System for a cyberpunk game. If you solely addressed the last factor, you might concentrate very thoroughly on deeply supporting every single genre, with many, many support books and settings for each one. Trouble is, though, doing any one of those things alone will cause problems.

 

I wonder how it would go if HERO produced just Champions material but managed to encourage licensed products for the rest? Idle musing...

 

You thrive by playing to your strengths... not by downplaying them.

I don't think genres have any particular flavor (beyond certain elemental tropes that have everything to do with roleplaying and nothing to do with rules). Settings are what can have flavor, IMO.

 

This is why I think Hero should consider more rules-type supplements and the like. I think this is why the Ultimate series is popular.

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Lets play a game of what if....

 

Lets pretend that there is a fully supported "interesting" Fantasy HERO Setting with glossy pages, full color art by industry names, fluff text galore, and oozing flavor out of every pore. We'll call it The Longian Age.

 

Lets pretend that we have a person that has just gotten in to gaming spontaneously. They aren't prebiased towards D&D or WW or any other particular game by an existing group. We'll call this player Alen Cherry.

 

A. Cherry also has 3 friends who have agreed, due to friendship, to support him in his odd new hobby. They have committed to play at least once a month for 6 months to help him out.

 

A. Cherry walks in to the store knowing only this: he wants to play in a particular genre (we'll say Fantasy), and he want's to walk out of the store with everything he needs to run the game. Money is no object; he is prepared to make an investment in this.

 

Walking into The Game Store, A. Cherry finds his way to the racks and starts browsing. He finds three interesting books:

 

Forgotten Realms

Warhammer FRPG

The Longian Age

 

Question to the forum: Which game does A. Cherry choose and why?

I got into RPGs, essentially, in spite of Fantasy, so it's a bit hard for me to say...but I would tend to think Warhammer as it's all-inclusive (I think) and IIRC it looks pretty cool, too.

 

However, one problem is that almost nobody gets into RPGs like this anymore. I think F2F Tabletop RPGs are dying for a number of reasons both good and bad, so companies competing in the space either have to really break the mold and find a way to change the dynamic (entirely possible, but requires brilliance that, with all due respect to the people on the boards, I haven't seen here or elsewhere yet, though I am convinced it can be done), or simply reset expectations, or evolve into a hybrid computer/tabletop model.

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I'm not a OGL fan but I disagree. I've seen OGL do different styles of fantasy [d&d' date= conan, etc.], different styles of science fiction [star Wars, Babylon 5, etc.], superheroes [M&M, the king of the superhero hill], and many other genres; and it's doing them well. As all those listed games show, OGL is very adaptable.

 

For you Hero's strength is that each genre uses the same rules/constructs. For me that's a curse. Each genre loses its individual flavor because it's using the same rules/constructs. There's no difference between a Champions and Fantasy Hero game, other than power levels. I believe there should be Champions-specific rules, Dark Champions-specific rules, Fantasy Hero-specific rules, etc; each exclusive within its own genre to maintain individual style.

 

Completely and totally disagree.

 

 

I guess I don't understand either as simple opposing statements relating to current reality...the genre books make lots of specific rules suggestions as they stand already, often even changing some things around. I like that. And that's where it belongs...in the genre books, not in the core book.

[Kristopher]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

This is in no way intended to be a blanket statement, but because of a lot of the behavior I see out of online gamers, especially in the MMORPG games, I'm not all that sad to see most of those players leave tabletop gaming for good -- except for the fact that the money coming in from the juvenile little jerks with their self-absorbed antics helped keep the gaming industry going for the rest of us. Which was fine except when I accidentally ended up gaming with them. And then the computer gaming industry expects me to pay $10/month to play in the same world as these little pricks, and writes the games in such a way as to make me team up with them? Screw that.

 

Sorry, that just turned into a rant about not being able to find good gamers and why I don't play online games.

[zornwil]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Go to my website. It already has 500 villains online for free.

GASP - then it's all your fault! BURN HIM!

 

[Markdoc]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

The whole post was well-stated, snipped only to cut to the part I wanted to ask about...

 

I agree with this, but I thought this is what Turakian Age and Champions Universe do? Do they not? I don't buy those products as I don't want a premade setting, so my ignorance. I assume you're not criticizing the genre books for this as the genre books aren't intended to do this...since I nearly-exclusively build those suit my needs quite well (whether they support a large enough market being a different issue).

 

The question isn't just to Markdoc but to anyone.

 

But I'll answer it anyway, bwahahaha

 

I can't speak about the Turakian age because i skipped that one - but I bought Valdorian age because I like to run Sword and sorcery style games. What you get is essentially a world book rather than a campaign setting - so you get a description of the world, a history and one detailed setting - a large city which intended as the main point for campaigns. You also get a half-dozen NPCs and a nifty magic system (which for me was the high point of the entire book).

 

What you don't get is any sort of bestiary (OK, since it's aimed at a city setting, that's fair enough). You get almost no supporting cast - only a few NPCs. You get no adventures - only a few plot hooks mostly attached to those NPCs. There's nothing wrong with the way it is presented but what you get is a setting in which - I guess in tune with Hero system philosophy - you "build your own game". Not a campaign that you can pick up and with relatively little effort pick up and run.

 

You get general descriptions, but the GM works out what (in Hero system terms) a standard city guardsman looks like, what a standard thief gang looks like, etc. And you get no adventures. There's plenty of things to do in the game world, and there's plenty of scope for a full-fledged campaign. But if you are going to run one, you are going to have to start it yourself. Now I claim no insight into running a gaming company, so maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem to me that a GM who buys a premade game setting does so because he wants to avoid the work and time involved with starting from scratch.

 

In truth, apart from the magic system (which is why that was the prize for me) you could get almost as much from buying *any* fantasy setting. The history and location descriptions are "non-crunchy" - non-Hero specific.

 

I'm firing up my FH game again at the moment - I'm using my old game world, but setting it in a isolated archipelago, that I doodled in years ago and have never used for anything, so I'm essentially starting with a blank setting. So far I have done the religions, the basic history and climatology, detailed the large scale maps and set up the basic social structure. To get the basics fully in place, I need a few city maps - especially the locations used for the begining of the story arc - and generic locations (castle, temple, etc, in the local styles). I need the magic systems. Finally, I'll put the politics in place and name (but not detail) the major players and their goals. Essentially I am recreating (in much less detail, admittedly) what you get in the Valdorian Age sourcebook - I've used 4 evenings on it so far and it will probbaly take me at least as long again to get all that nailed down.

 

But I also need a metric buttload of NPCs. I need a few unique critters for flavour. And most of all, I need adventures. Compared to the work in putting together the setting (maybe two weeks worth of work) putting that lot together is going to take literally months: fortunately I don't have to have it all before I start - an overarching story arc and a few notes is going to get me started. But while I kinda like doing this, I know from my own experience that faced with the pressure of getting - and keeping - a campaign running, many GMs fold.

 

And that's why I think the stuff about "generic settings" or "lack of flavour" miss the mark. The GMs I know (including our current *** GM) who might like to run Hero system but fold when faced with the amount of work needed, usually end up choosing an *equally* generic campaign setting - but one that comes with pre-generated adventures and lots of already generated NPCs.

 

I think there's a space - an important space - between pure settings books and pure modules and that's Campiagn settings: a mixture of the two that a GM can pick up and run with relatively easily. Not the large amount of detail that is presented in a settings book - not a slim book focused on one adventure, but a setting in which the GM can run adventures with the possibility of continuing the game after the premade adventures are finished. And of course the possibility of providing more adventures in that setting through (say) Digital Hero.

 

cheers, Mark

[Agent X]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

An interesting/important question is "does Hero need to sell beyond a limited base?" Can it be made profitable enough for "a guy" to run, with fewer products, less effort (except for QA across the board - website, marketing, materials, etc.)? Right now it's, what, a 5 person company, or such? What if it were a 1-person company with most everything outsourced, the person just dictates development direction and assures quality? What would be so bad so long as it still catered to those who want the crunchy Hero system as it already stands? Don't you (directed at anyone) think that if the line so encouraged we'd just have more fan-based products, then? We didn't in the "bad old days" but I think that had a lot to do with the ill will generated by the company and its continued well-intended (presumably) but empty promises of "soon". If they'd been honest and if the Fuzion debacle hadn't occurred, I think the community would have been a lot more company-supportive.

 

Just food for thought, really, I'm asking the questions and leading in answers but only for sake of exploration.

What HERO can do for me is give me tons of character books with interesting adventure locales - Modules. They've been striking out of late with their additions to the CU for my taste. I utterly loathe their take on mystics and the mystic world and that has infected far too much of the books that have come out. They pushed Dark Champions, not very interesting for me.

 

I don't really need super pretty maps. Some of the old modules for Champions didn't have super pretty maps. And with mapping software out now, anybody can beat those old maps. I would think professional gamers could too. Yep, I'd like some adventures. Why? Because I'm busy.

 

Instead I get an offer to buy mystic or street stuff I'm not interested in and an equipment book that I don't need. Villainy Amok and Hidden Lands are the only things that have come out for quite some time that garner any interest from me.