Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Well your area is the exception then because most of the other people who post to these boards have problems finding people to play Hero. And just for your own information M&M drastically outsells Hero by thousands of copies per book.

 

I'm guessing that you have access to industry statistics that back up that assertion?

 

You know, I've heard a great deal of praise for the M&M setting sourcebook, Freedom City, and for the most part I agree with it. It's a beautiful looking book, with entertaining writing, and much loving attention paid to the character backgrounds, details of the city environment, and the plots to adventures that can be derived from it. What really struck me, though, is that the book has almost nothing original in it!. Nearly every character is a clear homage or riff on established mainstream comic heroes and villains. The background, flavor and plots are a pastiche of Silver and Bronze Age conventions and precedents. All of it well executed, mind you, but derivative as all heck.

 

That's not necessarily a bad thing; many of us get into supers RPGs because we want to recreate the kinds of adventures we love in comics. But if you're looking for a fresh perspective on the supers genre, or an edge or spice beyond that of most games in the genre, Freedom City ain't it. So, what is the magic ingredient that makes FC more compelling than, say, the Champions Universe? (I personally don't believe it is, but for the sake of argument let's say.) Other than expensive production values, what is it that makes it more than another generic setting? Anyone who can define it precisely will have game designers lining up at his door.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I understand why HERO doesn't do this. I ran into this problem in the 4th edition days.

 

Take Fantasy Hero for example. It did include Fantasy Hero specific rules in it. It was written up specifically for Heroic level (specifically 75/75) characters. It had a specific magic system and specific spells.

 

And when someone tried to deviate from those writeups in the book they were told they weren't playing Fantasy Hero anymore and met opposition on the message boards whenever they tried to present something unique or a little different from what was in the published books. Martial Arts shouldn't be a part of Fantasy Hero. Powers shouldn't be written up as Talents and Special Skills because they don't do that in the Fantasy Hero book. If you want Powers you have to make it a spell or magic item. Technology doesn't belong there, its not in the Fantasy Hero book. Etc, etc. You get my point, I'm sure.

 

DOJ effectively eliminated this problem in the 5th edition by the way their genre supplements are handled now. I for one appreciate this immensely. I don't do things the "normal" way usually and was tired of arguing with 10 different people because I wanted to allow Fighters in my Fantasy Hero games to use powers to represent Feat-like abilities. (which a bunch of people are trying to do now...I was doing it back in early days of the 4th, and people yelled at me for it)

 

I really love the way DOJ is doing things now, and while their campaign settings don't really appeal to me (I'm one of those guys who designs his own for the most part) their genre and rules-expansion books (Ultimate series) I find to be more useful than 90% of the campaign specific rulesbooks of other game systems.

 

Besides, while I want DOJ to be successful, I don't want them to grow too large. If they do, they'll garner the attention of a money-hungry coporation who will wish to aquire them and absorb their income to its own (exactly what happened to TSR) and that is something none of us want. Trust me on that one.

I'm not talking about specific powers sets. I'm talking about genre rules. There's nothing wrong with having certain skills, maneuvers, etc being genre-specific. Certain things are uniquely superhero, certain things fantasy, etc. Hero makes no real effort to try and show you which are which. Should blaze away be part of the Champions' genre? Should hipshot be part of Fantasy Hero? Each genre should have it's own little perks, exclusive to itself, IMO. You can still be generic and be exclusive at the same time.

 

As for your FH comments, I never saw people telling others on the Hero list they weren't playing the proper FH because they refused to use the one example spell system in the book. I have many FH campaigns since 1E FH came out and never once used the house magic system. No one was ever forcing anyone to do anything.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I'm guessing that you have access to industry statistics that back up that assertion?

Come on. Don't ask stupid questions like that. You spend as much time on these boards as I do. You see how many people post here looking for players and trying to get into games. You see the same posts I see about people talking about how hard it is to find Hero players. I don't need statistics for that. I only need to read the posts here.

 

So, what is the magic ingredient that makes FC more compelling than, say, the Champions Universe? (I personally don't believe it is, but for the sake of argument let's say.) Other than expensive production values, what is it that makes it more than another generic setting? Anyone who can define it precisely will have game designers lining up at his door.

I think you missed my point. I didn't say the CU was bad. I said it's vanilla and dry. It's the difference between cream and crunch. Hero books seem to be written statistically with the world written around the system. FC is written as an entertaining book which also happens to have game statistics. Those are two entirely different things. Most successful settings are so because they are interesting, not because they have a good rules system. I've used dozens of different settings for Hero in my 24 years of playing. All the "conversion to Hero" links you post show that to be true as well.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I'm not talking about specific powers sets. I'm talking about genre rules. There's nothing wrong with having certain skills, maneuvers, etc being genre-specific. Certain things are uniquely superhero, certain things fantasy, etc. Hero makes no real effort to try and show you which are which. Should blaze away be part of the Champions' genre? Should hipshot be part of Fantasy Hero? Each genre should have it's own little perks, exclusive to itself, IMO. You can still be generic and be exclusive at the same time.

 

With all due respect, MitchellS, I find that quite well covered in published 5E books already. Every one of the genre books includes sections on existing Talents, Skills and Powers, which ones are most appropriate or inappropriate to a particular genre, and how they could be modified to better reflect that genre. Every genre book includes optional rules, and specific prebuilds using core rules, that set supers, fantasy, sci-fi or modern adventure apart from each other.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

With all due respect' date=' MitchellS, I find that quite well covered in published 5E books already. Every one of the genre books includes sections on existing Talents, Skills and Powers, which ones are most appropriate or inappropriate to a particular genre, and how they could be modified to better reflect that genre. Every genre book includes optional rules, and specific prebuilds using core rules, that set supers, fantasy, sci-fi or modern adventure apart from each other.[/quote']

LL, I'm just giving my opinions here. I know they're not popular - no one likes to see people go against the grain. But I don't write the books. It's DOJ's responsibility to produce material people find interesting and want to buy. If they are not successful at that then it's only their own fault. I can't go to my FLGS and hold a gun to gamer's heads and tell them to come with me to play Hero or die. It's not the lack of material forcing gamers to not play Champions [Champions is the best supported superhero game being published].

[OddHat]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I can't go to my FLGS and hold a gun to gamer's heads and tell them to come with me to play Hero or die.

 

[texas]

Now that right there shows a lack of commitment.

[/texas]

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

[texas]

Now that right there shows a lack of commitment.

[/texas]

Maybe I can find some gamers in prison after I try that?

[OddHat]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Maybe I can find some gamers in prison after I try that?

 

A new market just waiting to be explored.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Come on. Don't ask stupid questions like that. You spend as much time on these boards as I do. You see how many people post here looking for players and trying to get into games. You see the same posts I see about people talking about how hard it is to find Hero players. I don't need statistics for that. I only need to read the posts here.

 

Well, I do think you're reaching here. You can't really declare that "M&M drastically outsells Hero by thousands of copies per book" based on anecdotal evidence of how many people post to a forum looking for games. That's a firm statistical statement, and frankly when you make a statement like that you need numbers to back it up.

 

I for one am also wary of using the posters to any website as a representative sampling of overall trends in game sales. For example, I often visit RPGnet, a far larger and more diverse gaming community than the one here. If I went by the topics they discuss on their gaming forums, I'd have to conclude that Exalted is the best-selling game in the field.

 

 

I think you missed my point. I didn't say the CU was bad. I said it's vanilla and dry. It's the difference between cream and crunch. Hero books seem to be written statistically with the world written around the system. FC is written as an entertaining book which also happens to have game statistics. Those are two entirely different things. Most successful settings are so because they are interesting' date=' not because they have a good rules system. I've used dozens of different settings for Hero in my 24 years of playing. All the "conversion to Hero" links you post show that to be true as well.[/quote']

 

You certainly have a right to your view as to the relative entertainment value of the writing in these books. For my part I found Champions Universe to be quite entertaining, as well as VIPER, DEMON, Vibora Bay and a number of other books. I'd rank a few of them with any other supers supplement by any game company in the "cream" category. OTOH I have indeed found several to be rather drier and less inspiring. I suppose that's inevitable when you turn out a lot of product. That is one thing to keep in mind about M&M, too: the actual material that's been published for the line, both by Green Ronin and by outside parties, is a small fraction of what Hero Games has put out for Champions. Has everything written for M&M been of the same high quality? How will the two lines compare when (and if) Green Ronin has produced an equal level of support? We'll have to see.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Well' date=' I do think you're reaching here. You can't really declare that "M&M drastically outsells Hero by thousands of copies per book" based on anecdotal evidence of how many people post to a forum looking for games. That's a firm statistical statement, and frankly when you make a statement like that you need numbers to back it up.[/quote']

Even if I wanted to produce numbers the sheer fact that M&M is printed in full-color and is not more expensive then a Champions book tells you the difference in print-run size.

 

I suppose that's inevitable when you turn out a lot of product. That is one thing to keep in mind about M&M, too: the actual material that's been published for the line, both by Green Ronin and by outside parties, is a small fraction of what Hero Games has put out for Champions. Has everything written for M&M been of the same high quality? How will the two lines compare when (and if) Green Ronin has produced an equal level of support? We'll have to see.

By my own reconning DOJ has published 16 Champions products and Green Ronin 10 M&M books. That gap is not as large as you might think.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

LL' date=' I'm just giving my opinions here. I know they're not popular - no one likes to see people go against the grain. But I don't write the books. It's DOJ's responsibility to produce material people find interesting and want to buy. If they are not successful at that then it's only their own fault. I can't go to my FLGS and hold a gun to gamer's heads and tell them to come with me to play Hero or die. It's not the lack of material forcing gamers to not play Champions [Champions is the best supported superhero game being published'].

 

MS, I repeat that you absolutely have the right to your opinions. The points you raise are always well-reasoned and articulate, and it's clear that you're motivated by a desire to help Hero Games improve the quality of their work and reach more people. I often find your suggestions very useful.

 

I suppose where I have trouble is your apparent position (and I'm not saying that this is the case, only that it comes across that way sometimes) that your experience and that of your gaming circle is a clear reflection of the situation in the wider gaming community, and that people with a different opinion or experience must be mistaken. Your view has merit and should be listened to, but even if you're right that doesn't necessarily make people who disagree with you wrong.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

MS, I repeat that you absolutely have the right to your opinions. The points you raise are always well-reasoned and articulate, and it's clear that you're motivated by a desire to help Hero Games improve the quality of their work and reach more people. I often find your suggestions very useful.

 

I suppose where I have trouble is your apparent position (and I'm not saying that this is the case, only that it comes across that way sometimes) that your experience and that of your gaming circle is a clear reflection of the situation in the wider gaming community, and that people with a different opinion or experience must be mistaken. Your view has merit and should be listened to, but even if you're right that doesn't necessarily make people who disagree with you wrong.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong. All I'm saying is that DOJ has admitting having problems. There are solutions to those problems, but those solutions require some change; change by the company and change by the fans who want to believe the company is infallible. I visit a lot of message boards. I never see people saying: "I use Champions Universe for my M&M game" or "How do I convert Ambrethel to ***." I see lots of posts saying the exact opposite though. As I said above, the multitude of "How do I convert X to Hero" threads you have associated yourself with only help to bear that out.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Serious question here: I frequently hear about how "vanilla" the Hero game worlds are compared to others. But is this really true? Is Forgotten Realms really a more interesting concept than Turakian Age? I mean, to me Faerun doesn't offer anything particularly new, groundbreaking, or innovative (just the opposite, actually).

 

I could be wrong, but I think its popularity primarily has to do with two things: its longevity (nearly 20 years old) and the slew of novels based (loosely) on the world. I mean, if it wasn't for Drzzzt, how many people would have ever heard of the Forgotten Realms, much less be interested in gaming there?

 

Bill.

(So maybe Hero needs to get a couple of good writers to start publishing novels about its worlds...)

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

The question which started this whole thread was if the lack of supported worlds was hurting Hero sales. My answer has been the same all along: No. What is hurting Hero sales is the company's inability to capture the imaginations of even its core fans with its current worlds. The worlds are not that inspiring and the fans have not embraced them.

[OddHat]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

(So maybe Hero needs to get a couple of good writers to start publishing novels about its worlds...)

 

Well that would certainly put it ahead of WoC...

 

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Serious question here: I frequently hear about how "vanilla" the Hero game worlds are compared to others. But is this really true? Is Forgotten Realms really a more interesting concept than Turakian Age? I mean, to me Faerun doesn't offer anything particularly new, groundbreaking, or innovative (just the opposite, actually).

 

I could be wrong, but I think its popularity primarily has to do with two things: its longevity (nearly 20 years old) and the slew of novels based (loosely) on the world. I mean, if it wasn't for Drzzzt, how many people would have ever heard of the Forgotten Realms, much less be interested in gaming there?

 

Bill.

(So maybe Hero needs to get a couple of good writers to start publishing novels about its worlds...)

A good piece of fiction goes a long way toward making fans embrace a world. That's why I suggested in the other thread that if the fans just wrote fan-fiction about their favorite Hero game world it would help to generate some interest [and why I always talk about the company doing some monthy creamy updates in DH]. Game worlds, especially fantasy worlds, are built upon the concept of myth, lore, and legend. An interesting world just isn't about the facts. The Forgotten Realms soared, in part, because Ed wrote dozens of columns in Dragon which breathed life into the realms for the fans. We wanted to know about the enchanted place long before the boxset was ever published. Of course I'm an old Greyhawker.

[BlackSword]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Serious question here: I frequently hear about how "vanilla" the Hero game worlds are compared to others. But is this really true? Is Forgotten Realms really a more interesting concept than Turakian Age? I mean, to me Faerun doesn't offer anything particularly new, groundbreaking, or innovative (just the opposite, actually).

 

I could be wrong, but I think its popularity primarily has to do with two things: its longevity (nearly 20 years old) and the slew of novels based (loosely) on the world. I mean, if it wasn't for Drzzzt, how many people would have ever heard of the Forgotten Realms, much less be interested in gaming there?

 

Bill.

(So maybe Hero needs to get a couple of good writers to start publishing novels about its worlds...)

Forgotten Realms became the default D&D setting, so it has been pushed and pushed hard. It was used in all of the Gold Box games from SSI. Numerous stories and plenty of RPG supplements. I don't think FR is unique, but it incorporates just about every fantasy trope in it, so its easy to put a game somewhere in the world and get the type of fantasy you want.

 

Which is something I don't understand about Turakian Age, its a good setting with neat ideas and plenty of places and games to play in.

[Fox1]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

The question which started this whole thread was if the lack of supported worlds was hurting Hero sales. My answer has been the same all along: No. What is hurting Hero sales is the company's inability to capture the imaginations of even its core fans with its current worlds. The worlds are not that inspiring and the fans have not embraced them.

 

I'll have to agree with this.

 

Nothing HERO has ever done caught a spark with me. As a result I use HERO in either settings of my own creation, or in the settings of other rpgs.

 

They are just dull. And it doesn't help that I construct characters/items completely differently than they do.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I think part of the contention here is that some think that the lack of a major setting is a problem, while some don't see it as a problem at all.

 

MS points to people converting systems to the HERO System as if that is somehow proof of a flaw. Personally I see that as a strength.

 

I don't play the HERO System for a setting. I play HERO for the RULES.

 

The game isn't sold as a setting -- it is sold as a SYSTEM. Its even in the name. The HERO System. You're buying rules, not content.

 

There are plenty of games that sell their rules via their content. The fact that the HERO System is really good for taking the content and ideas from other games expressed in various systems and reexpressing it in a consistent fashion is not a sign of a detriment, it is a huge advantage.

 

If I wanted a prepackaged game, there are many products out there. I've played many of them. If I want to express my own ideas though I turn to the HERO System.

 

I also like some of the published HERO Settings. I really like the Champions Universe, and I like the Hudson City setting. Other forays on there part havent been my cup of tea, but that doesnt mean they were bad, I just didnt have any interest in them.

 

So I get the best of both worlds. I get published settings if I want them, and I have the flexibility to model my own material if I want.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Forgotten Realms became the default D&D setting, so it has been pushed and pushed hard. It was used in all of the Gold Box games from SSI. Numerous stories and plenty of RPG supplements. I don't think FR is unique, but it incorporates just about every fantasy trope in it, so its easy to put a game somewhere in the world and get the type of fantasy you want.

 

Which is something I don't understand about Turakian Age, its a good setting with neat ideas and plenty of places and games to play in.

Technically, unless they changed it again in 3.5, Greyhawk is still the "default" setting. Forgotten Realms is the published setting and the money maker though.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Technically' date=' unless they changed it again in 3.5, Greyhawk is still the "default" setting. Forgotten Realms is the published setting and the money maker though.[/quote']

 

 

I'll take your word on this, but....

 

It actually seems like the "official default setting" is held by both FR and Greyhawk, maybe. Greyhawk WAS the first campaign setting for D&D, I think.... Maybe. I could look it up online, but that would be cheating. So I guess if it was the first published setting, it kind of ties with FR as the "default."

[teh bunneh]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

A good piece of fiction goes a long way toward making fans embrace a world. That's why I suggested in the other thread that if the fans just wrote fan-fiction about their favorite Hero game world it would help to generate some interest [and why I always talk about the company doing some monthy creamy updates in DH]. Game worlds' date=' especially fantasy worlds, are built upon the concept of myth, lore, and legend. An interesting world just isn't about the facts. The Forgotten Realms soared, in part, because Ed wrote dozens of columns in Dragon which breathed life into the realms for the fans. We wanted to know about the enchanted place long before the boxset was ever published. Of course I'm an old Greyhawker. [/quote']

 

Is there interest in "cream" for the CU worlds in DH? Stories, myths, lore, interesting locales and NPCs (with minimal stats)? I'd step up the plate for that. I already write a weekly update of my semi-CU game in the Champs forum.

 

Bill.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Is there interest in "cream" for the CU worlds in DH? Stories, myths, lore, interesting locales and NPCs (with minimal stats)? I'd step up the plate for that. I already write a weekly update of my semi-CU game in the Champs forum.

 

Bill.

I don't think there's a big demand for player-generated cream in DH. What I was suggesting was getting official tidbits to enrich the game worlds; something official in stance. Player-created material is, for the most part, unofficial.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I think part of the contention here is that some think that the lack of a major setting is a problem, while some don't see it as a problem at all.

 

MS points to people converting systems to the HERO System as if that is somehow proof of a flaw. Personally I see that as a strength.

 

I don't play the HERO System for a setting. I play HERO for the RULES.

 

The game isn't sold as a setting -- it is sold as a SYSTEM. Its even in the name. The HERO System. You're buying rules, not content.

 

There are plenty of games that sell their rules via their content. The fact that the HERO System is really good for taking the content and ideas from other games expressed in various systems and reexpressing it in a consistent fashion is not a sign of a detriment, it is a huge advantage.

 

If I wanted a prepackaged game, there are many products out there. I've played many of them. If I want to express my own ideas though I turn to the HERO System.

 

I also like some of the published HERO Settings. I really like the Champions Universe, and I like the Hudson City setting. Other forays on there part havent been my cup of tea, but that doesnt mean they were bad, I just didnt have any interest in them.

 

So I get the best of both worlds. I get published settings if I want them, and I have the flexibility to model my own material if I want.

I know you might not believe this but what I'm talking about has nothing to do with what I like or what you like. It has to do with what will sell versus what will not. For example, I don't care for Ultimate books but I think they sell so DOJ should keep publishing them. Ultimately it's not about what MitchellS or Killer Shrike wants but about what will sell the most for DOJ. Increasing sales are what is important. Without continuing sales none of us will ever get what we want.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I'll take your word on this, but....

 

It actually seems like the "official default setting" is held by both FR and Greyhawk, maybe. Greyhawk WAS the first campaign setting for D&D, I think.... Maybe. I could look it up online, but that would be cheating. So I guess if it was the first published setting, it kind of ties with FR as the "default."

Greyhawk was the 1st published setting -- it was Gary Gygax's personal setting originally. For many years it was synonymous with Dungeons and Dragons, but after Gary left the company the setting was given a serious shaking up under the helm of Carl Sargent, and eventually was dropped from active support. When WotC acquired TSR one of the first things they did was revive Greyhawk with Return of the Eight by Roger Moore, and several follow on adventures.

 

But that isnt what I mean.

 

What I mean is that in D&D 3e it was explicitly stated that Greyhawk was named as the "default" setting. However due to financial realities the very popular Forgotten Realms continues to be the primary published setting. Greyhawk got a book updating it to 3e, and was then shuffled off to the RPGA for continued support.

 

So, technically, Greyhawk is the official default setting, even though that is a meaningless distinction since FR is supported constantly and Greyhawk is relegated to the side lines.