Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

A treasure trove for a GM. Financial ruin for DOJ. Hero Games makes money by selling supplements not by selling 5Er.

I meant "created by GMs for their individual games" not "created and put into existing products"

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I meant "created by GMs for their individual games" not "created and put into existing products"

I assumed you meant put on a website for everyone to have access to if they so wished. Such a website would stifle sales of similar products that DOJ wished to publish. There would be no reason to publish a new villians' book when there are 500 villains online available for free.

[Susano]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I meant "created by GMs for their individual games" not "created and put into existing products"

 

Well, in defense of MitchellS I only just noticed the "a 5th Edition game" part. I also was thinking of a list of all the characters created for 5th Edition and what books they come. Not sure why, but it sounded like a neat reference project.

[Susano]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I assumed you meant put on a website for everyone to have access to if they so wished. Such a website would stifle sales of similar products that DOJ wished to publish. There would be no reason to publish a new villians' book when there are 500 villains online available for free.

 

Go to my website. It already has 500 villains online for free.

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I assumed you meant put on a website for everyone to have access to if they so wished. Such a website would stifle sales of similar products that DOJ wished to publish. There would be no reason to publish a new villians' book when there are 500 villains online available for free.

 

Its similar to what you proposed on the create our own world thread though isn't? Posting expanded information on the published settings.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Go to my website. It already has 500 villains online for free.

I've been to your website many times.

 

I'm not really talking about literary conversions. I'm really talking more about someone publishing 500 unique new villains for 5E Champions and then inviting people to use them. That can cut into potential sales.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I assumed you meant put on a website for everyone to have access to if they so wished. Such a website would stifle sales of similar products that DOJ wished to publish. There would be no reason to publish a new villians' book when there are 500 villains online available for free.

True, and this gets closer to my point. I think that if a player run site (like Susano's) is to be good and not hurt Hero, it has to be considerate of what Hero Games is trying to market. There also is a question of where is the line. Having lots of free web based resources is going to encourage more people who don't play Hero to play Hero. But if it is cutting into supplement sales, it isn't worth it. But if a system is done that it encourages purchase of supplements, it both brings in players and increases the profit for Hero Games. In this case everyone wins.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Its similar to what you proposed on the create our own world thread though isn't? Posting expanded information on the published settings.

No, not really. What I am saying in the other thread to for players to use their energy to expand what has already been done in the hopes of drawing more attention to those projects. The point is to produce things which DOJ will not.

[Susano]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I've been to your website many times.

 

I'm not really talking about literary conversions. I'm really talking more about someone publishing 500 unique new villains for 5E Champions and then inviting people to use them. That can cut into potential sales.

 

Hmm... I don't know. I mean, who ever does this would have to be able to write, and write well, and quickly enough to produce 500 characters of quality that people would want to actually look at all of them and decide if they were useful. Also, if they were all 100% original, I doubt it would help new people as they would have no reference point. I'd like to think that literary conversions have one thing going for them -- a frame of reference, thus allowing people to grasp what the words and numbers mean.

 

Oh, and if these 500 characters were posted sans art? Forget it. Visuals help, especially in a supers game. Look at the popularity of Oddhat's "Pics that could be Supers" thread.

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

No' date=' not really. What I am saying in the other thread to for players to use their energy to expand what has already been done in the hopes of drawing more attention to those projects. The point is to produce things which DOJ will not.[/quote']

 

I see... thank you for explaining.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Hmm... I don't know. I mean, who ever does this would have to be able to write, and write well, and quickly enough to produce 500 characters of quality that people would want to actually look at all of them and decide if they were useful. Also, if they were all 100% original, I doubt it would help new people as they would have no reference point. I'd like to think that literary conversions have one thing going for them -- a frame of reference, thus allowing people to grasp what the words and numbers mean.

 

Oh, and if these 500 characters were posted sans art? Forget it. Visuals help, especially in a supers game. Look at the popularity of Oddhat's "Pics that could be Supers" thread.

I think all original characters are generic. You can easily take anyone from CKC and use them in a homebrew world with minimal origin adjustments. I've used characters from every game system I've ever seen. The ideas, when put into Hero form, are what's important. You can always modify "Twister's" origin to fit the campaign but a well detailed 700 point villain is quite valuable.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I think the main problem with the idea of basing the future of the HERO System on fans is that a lot of people talk about wanting to do something to provide content, but only a few of us put our money and time where our mouths are.

 

For example, I've solicited input for the past several years that Ive been building killershrike.com and similarly before that when I had my old website. I've had a handful of contributors, and a slightly larger handful of people that don't send content but take the time review material either for content or formatting or both. All in all a small percentage of a percent.

 

Maybe people don't want to work with me, maybe people don't like the direction I move in, maybe people don't agree with my take on the HERO System. And that's ok; part of the fun of using the HERO System is that we can all have our own vision of how to use it, and all be right within our own implementations.

 

But personally I think that for the most part it's just a matter that most people can't be bothered to follow thru on things and do something constructive/productive. They have other priorities in life and find their own balance between their hobby and their normal life, and that balance does not include industriously producing new content for the HERO System to share with others.

 

 

The fact is that without DOJ continuing to turn out product, while a few die hards will continue to play, the player base will dwindle. This isn't even supposition; we've already been thru that with the HERO System; we have concrete evidence that makes that clear. And for DOJ to continue to turn out product they have to remain solvent. Since they chose to concentrate their entire business on a single revenue stream (sale of HERO books), that means people have to buy their books. Ergo, the most effective thing an average player can do to help the company and to increase the odds that their favorite system will continue to actively exist is to buy books.

 

Personally, I buy the books even if I have no interest in them. I give away the ones I don't like. I'm not as proactive as I once was about picking them up as soon as they come out since Im not actively gaming at the moment, but eventually I acquire every book. Not every one can afford to do that, but I can and I do, because I believe that if I buy a book today I don't actually want, I'm bettering the odds that a book I do want will one day be printed, and also increasing the odds that the next time I have time to play a HERO campaign I'll be able to find players without going thru a massive ordeal or getting lucky.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Nevereverend, I think you can use whatever world you want with almost any system. There are hundreds of thousands of fantasy ***ers who do not use Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, or Eberron [or any of the older settings]. This is not exclusive to Hero. Sometimes I think people confuse the idea of setting and system. *** is as generic as Hero now, as is d6, Tri-stat, and dozens of other systems. Worlds sell because not all gamers have unlimited free time. My personal feeling as to why Hero settings do not sell well is that they are too generic. They do not contain that one to two unique aspects that make them standout in the crowd, IMO.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Anyone know why d 20 is on the ban list?

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I'm well aware of the difference. And I disagree that d 20 is truly generic. It may not be explicity setting specific' date=' but it does provide a far more specific style of game than other generic systems like Hero, or even GURPS and Fuzion.[/quote']

I'm not a OGL fan but I disagree. I've seen OGL do different styles of fantasy [d&d, conan, etc.], different styles of science fiction [star Wars, Babylon 5, etc.], superheroes [M&M, the king of the superhero hill], and many other genres; and it's doing them well. As all those listed games show, OGL is very adaptable.

 

For you Hero's strength is that each genre uses the same rules/constructs. For me that's a curse. Each genre loses its individual flavor because it's using the same rules/constructs. There's no difference between a Champions and Fantasy Hero game, other than power levels. I believe there should be Champions-specific rules, Dark Champions-specific rules, Fantasy Hero-specific rules, etc; each exclusive within its own genre to maintain individual style.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

For you Hero's strength is that each genre uses the same rules/constructs. For me that's a curse. Each genre loses its individual flavor because it's using the same rules/constructs. There's no difference between a Champions and Fantasy Hero game' date=' other than power levels. I believe there should be Champions-specific rules, Dark Champions-specific rules, Fantasy Hero-specific rules, etc; each exclusive within its own genre to maintain individual style.[/quote']

Completely and totally disagree.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Completely and totally disagree.

Really? I like the fact that Champions had a Shockwave maneuver, for example. It was genre specific and added flavor to a superhero game. Now it's gone in lue of a power. The little quirks that made Champions Champions are now blended into the quirks that made Danger International Danger International, and made all the other genres what they once were. To each his own though.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

My personal feeling as to why Hero settings do not sell well is that they are too generic. They do not contain that one to two unique aspects that make them standout in the crowd' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

Right. Personally, I think generic is good for a rules system. That's one of the things I love about Hero. But it's bad for a campaign setting. That's one of the things I don't love about most of the setting books. (Even `tho I buy most of them out of brand loyalty.)

 

For most gamers, it's not about the rules; it's about the story. Most of the non-Hero gamers I know consider the rules to be just a means to an end, and the end is unique, original and fun stories. Can you tell such stories? Absolutely! Assuming you're 1) very creative and 2) have lots of time to devote to the task. But let's face it: even among gamers that's a rather small segment of the population.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"I've never shot anyone before..."

"I was there, son. I'm fairly sure you haven't shot anyone yet."

[sbarron]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Really? I like the fact that Champions had a Shockwave maneuver' date=' for example. It was genre specific and added flavor to a superhero game. Now it's gone in lue of a power. The little quirks that made Champions Champions are now blended into the quirks that made Danger International Danger International, and made all the other genres what they once were. To each his own though. [/quote']This is what I think the problem is with many Hero products. They don't make it clear enough what is and is not acceptable for a given genre, and what is and is not in each game. There is no reason that there can't be a shockwave maneuver in champions games. Hero has just left it up to each GM to put it in there, instead of doing it themselves in their setting. And it appears as if most GMs aren't doing it.

 

Hero has all the parts to build any of the settings out there on the market. They just never do it. They always incorporate all of their rules, with advice on what might work and what might not. I really wish they would just build a setting with all the rules specific to that setting fully detailed. Intentionally leaving out rules that just don't fit "that" setting, and inserting ones that do. I think then a strong, fleshed-out setting could emerge.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Mutants and Masterminds I haven't played. Funny you call it the king of the superhero hill' date=' because I haven't seen anyone in this area playing it. Found lots of champions players (granted, some of them are still playing 4e) though.[/quote']

Well your area is the exception then because most of the other people who post to these boards have problems finding people to play Hero. And just for your own information M&M drastically outsells Hero by thousands of copies per book.

 

I disagree even more strongly with this, and NEVER presume to tell me what I am thinking.

You might want to cut back on the caffeine a little.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Right. Personally, I think generic is good for a rules system. That's one of the things I love about Hero. But it's bad for a campaign setting. That's one of the things I don't love about most of the setting books. (Even `tho I buy most of them out of brand loyalty.)

 

For most gamers, it's not about the rules; it's about the story. Most of the non-Hero gamers I know consider the rules to be just a means to an end, and the end is unique, original and fun stories. Can you tell such stories? Absolutely! Assuming you're 1) very creative and 2) have lots of time to devote to the task. But let's face it: even among gamers that's a rather small segment of the population.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"I've never shot anyone before..."

"I was there, son. I'm fairly sure you haven't shot anyone yet."

Yes, very true. That's why so many people convert other game worlds to Hero. Interesting worlds are cherished. Systems can be changed.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

This is what I think the problem is with many Hero products. They don't make it clear enough what is and is not acceptable for a given genre, and what is and is not in each game. There is no reason that there can't be a shockwave maneuver in champions games. Hero has just left it up to each GM to put it in there, instead of doing it themselves in their setting. And it appears as if most GMs aren't doing it.

 

Hero has all the parts to build any of the settings out there on the market. They just never do it. They always incorporate all of their rules, with advice on what might work and what might not. I really wish they would just build a setting with all the rules specific to that setting fully detailed. Intentionally leaving out rules that just don't fit "that" setting, and inserting ones that do. I think then a strong, fleshed-out setting could emerge.

I agree with this too. There's nothing wrong with making genre-specific rules. Not allowing shockwaves and being able to tie someone up without a power is stupid and just shows you what adhering to a generic system causes. There should be rules just for Champions, and rules just for Fantasy Hero, and rules for Pulp Hero, and there shouldn't be any problem with that. The flavor of the genre is what you are trying to increase, not just the rules.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Really? I like the fact that Champions had a Shockwave maneuver' date=' for example. It was genre specific and added flavor to a superhero game. Now it's gone in lue of a power. The little quirks that made Champions Champions are now blended into the quirks that made Danger International Danger International, and made all the other genres what they once were. To each his own though. [/quote']

 

I think that if an ability can't be abstracted away from a particular genre then it doesnt belong in the main rule book.

 

Currently all of the new genre books I can think of have little tidbits in them that are appropriate to that genre and while some of them can be genericized back out into other genres, most of them only reside in a particular genre. Like fastball specials, interposing, and blowthru rules. Seems like the best of both worlds to me.

 

And finally if you really miss things like that, you are free to add them back in to your game. It is an open system after all.

[Greg]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I'm going to have to agree with MitchellS. I wonder how many people here are primarlily GMs and not players. The Player's Handbook is WoTCs best-seller not the DMs guide. What does Hero have to sell to players beyond generic Ultimate books that are really geared towards the GM. I have 4 players in my group, none of which have bought any Hero stuff yet. They bought Exalted stuff when we played Exalted and they bought D&D and Rifts stuff in the past. I honestly don't know what book I'd recommend to them besides Sidekick. Hero books aren't known for their artwork or cool settings (classes, races, weapons) so there's not much there for a player to look over and get inspired. I will say that I picked up my first 4th edition supplement last weekend which was basically the Hero knock-off of X-Men (don't remember the name) and that has inspired me to play Champions more than anything else.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I agree with this too. There's nothing wrong with making genre-specific rules. Not allowing shockwaves and being able to tie someone up without a power is stupid and just shows you what adhering to a generic system causes. There should be rules just for Champions' date=' and rules just for Fantasy Hero, and rules for Pulp Hero, and there shouldn't be any problem with that. The flavor of the genre is what you are trying to increase, not just the rules.[/quote']

 

I understand why HERO doesn't do this. I ran into this problem in the 4th edition days.

 

Take Fantasy Hero for example. It did include Fantasy Hero specific rules in it. It was written up specifically for Heroic level (specifically 75/75) characters. It had a specific magic system and specific spells.

 

And when someone tried to deviate from those writeups in the book they were told they weren't playing Fantasy Hero anymore and met opposition on the message boards whenever they tried to present something unique or a little different from what was in the published books. Martial Arts shouldn't be a part of Fantasy Hero. Powers shouldn't be written up as Talents and Special Skills because they don't do that in the Fantasy Hero book. If you want Powers you have to make it a spell or magic item. Technology doesn't belong there, its not in the Fantasy Hero book. Etc, etc. You get my point, I'm sure.

 

DOJ effectively eliminated this problem in the 5th edition by the way their genre supplements are handled now. I for one appreciate this immensely. I don't do things the "normal" way usually and was tired of arguing with 10 different people because I wanted to allow Fighters in my Fantasy Hero games to use powers to represent Feat-like abilities. (which a bunch of people are trying to do now...I was doing it back in early days of the 4th, and people yelled at me for it)

 

I really love the way DOJ is doing things now, and while their campaign settings don't really appeal to me (I'm one of those guys who designs his own for the most part) their genre and rules-expansion books (Ultimate series) I find to be more useful than 90% of the campaign specific rulesbooks of other game systems.

 

Besides, while I want DOJ to be successful, I don't want them to grow too large. If they do, they'll garner the attention of a money-hungry coporation who will wish to aquire them and absorb their income to its own (exactly what happened to TSR) and that is something none of us want. Trust me on that one.