Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

[BlackSword]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I think it's a safe gamble to make to assume familiarity with Fantasy Hero before using one of the settings built for it.

I think the requirement for FH to run Turakian Age is a mistake, everytime I read, "refer this in Fantasy Hero" I cringed*. It would be similar to trying to read a JD Salinger book which is missing Chapter 3 and refers to the English Lit text book. Why? Fantasy Hero is more like a textbook, its not something I think everyone needs or will want to buy. Its a great book, but its not for everyones needs. Requireing it for a setting is just one more way to drive people away. IMO

 

 

 

*admittedly there were only a few times that TA required a reference to FH, but at least one of those was a package deal for barbarians or horse lords.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

This is exaclty the problem. Where's the hook? Where's the style? Where's the thing that would grab a readers attention and scream "PLAY ME!!!?" These settings have all of the elements, sure, but they lack something to cause me to be interested.

There is nothing to grab the attention of a casual reader/viewer. It has the parts, but it lacks the hook. Would you randomly pick up the Turakian Age and buy if you weren't a Hero gamer? No, you wouldn't. The inside art is generic and inconsistant. The cover, quite frankly, is cheesy. Nothing about the book will make you notice it, which is what you need to attract people other than Hero gamers. And the stuff inside, for the most part, is good stuff. But without a hook, it's just another generic setting in a sea of so many. Move along, random gamer, nothing to see here...

 

Thanks, sbarron, that's what I've been trying to say, except much better said.

 

I think the idea of Sidekick genre books is also a great one, and from a business standpoint is probably less risky and easier to implement. Higher priority? Probably.

 

But I still think that more-interesting settings ought to be part of the solution. Give us something we haven't seen before, rather than just "here's how to do _____ in Hero" which is what the current books seem to be designed to do.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"This is the kind of conversation that can only end in a gunshot."

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

This is exaclty the problem. Where's the hook? Where's the style? Where's the thing that would grab a readers attention and scream "PLAY ME!!!?" These settings have all of the elements, sure, but they lack something to cause me to be interested. What is that thing? I'm not sure, however...

 

1) Stylish art that consistantly gives a feel to the setting (B&W or color),

2) Some cool game mechanic that players have to try,

3) Something unique in the setting that sets it apart,

4) Game fiction would be good,

5) others...

 

all of these are what are missing. Look at the rulebook for Warhammer 40k, or the Inquisitor e-book I posted yesteday, or Exalted. They just ooze the setting on every page. The art conveys to the reader how cool the setting can be. The game fiction just adds to that. HERO has nothing like this (except in USPDB, which has the case logs and photos, which I think were a big hit with everyone). That is the kind of thing that can bring a setting to life for players.

 

And that is what is missing from HEROs settings. There is nothing to grab the attention of a casual reader/viewer. It has the parts, but it lacks the hook. Would you randomly pick up the Turakian Age and buy if you weren't a Hero gamer? No, you wouldn't. The inside art is generic and inconsistant. The cover, quite frankly, is cheesy. Nothing about the book will make you notice it, which is what you need to attract people other than Hero gamers. And the stuff inside, for the most part, is good stuff. But without a hook, it's just another generic setting in a sea of so many. Move along, random gamer, nothing to see here...

 

I'll just agree to disagree on your feelings about the current setting and their appeal.

[sbarron]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I'll just agree to disagree on your feelings about the current setting and their appeal.

Of course, no worries. We're both on the same team here.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

What have I started? There are now at least four off shoot threads based on the topic I started.

[nexus]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

What have I started? There are now at least four off shoot threads based on the topic I started.

 

Its a monster! You must battle this thread to the death in a burning windmill!

[arcady]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Its a monster! You must battle this thread to the death in a burning windmill!

With Tina Turner singing the theme song no less!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I think the requirement for FH to run Turakian Age is a mistake, everytime I read, "refer this in Fantasy Hero" I cringed*. It would be similar to trying to read a JD Salinger book which is missing Chapter 3 and refers to the English Lit text book. Why? Fantasy Hero is more like a textbook, its not something I think everyone needs or will want to buy. Its a great book, but its not for everyones needs. Requireing it for a setting is just one more way to drive people away. IMO

 

 

 

*admittedly there were only a few times that TA required a reference to FH, but at least one of those was a package deal for barbarians or horse lords.

 

Hmmm..you have a good point here. I can understand requiring FREd or the 5ER to play, (just as XnX requires the Players Handbook to play) but a fully fleshed out settings book shouldn't require anything else to get started. All of the relevant package deals, weapons writeups, creatures etc should all be included in the settings book, or a future update (like Turakian Age Beastiary or some such) Terran Empire shouldn't require Star Hero to play, just the Fifth Edition rulesbook. As far as I'm concerned, Star Hero, Fantasy Hero etc are for GM's who want to create their own campaigns (or convert existing ones) in those genres. GM's who prefer to use a pre-built setting that already includes the Hero rules shouldn't need them.

[Markdoc]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Boy, you give thread a little manure and leave it alone for a while...

 

OK, now that the thread has maturedenough to drive away the noobs, let's throw a new idea in.

 

What if the settings produced are not selling, not because they are generic or not "flashily presented" (personally I think both of those things are true, but still...) but for another reason?

 

Certainly lack of flash works against impulse purchases - and that effects the core rules too - so it's unlikely that Joe Q. Gamer will walk into a store and think "Oh, gotta have that!". The bulk of rules probably means less in that situation than the simple visual appeal (or lack thereof). I know plenty of games geeks who have bought rulesets they never play - and I bet you do, too.

 

OK, but what about people who know what they want? In short, there's plenty of Hero system GMs, and a fairish number are interested in Fantasy or Sci Fi (or even Superheroes, fer Grond's sake!) Why don't they buy settings books?

 

And there's two possible answers to that questions I can see. The first is that Hero system GM's are ornery critters and they don't WANT someone else's setting. They want to do it themselves, consarnit! Well, judging by this thread, those people are out there. But..... there are also plenty of people on these boards who openly lament that they would run a game but they're short of time, and... etc. If they are on this board they are already heroistas. Those people would buy a setting book if it offered what they want and need. So why don't they?

 

OK, here's the new idea, i mentioned. The settings books so far published - at least the ones I've bought or read - DON'T meet that need.

 

What you get is a very bare-bones setting, with one or two locales described in detail. Very few NPCs, few to no "setting-specific" critters. No adventures (a few adventure seeds, if you are lucky). A GM - even an experienced Hero system GM - can't sit down with these settings books and throw a game together. He/she has to generate a mass of NPCs, a mass of setting-specific monsters and then start putting them together into adventures. In other words, you need to do 90% of the work that you would like to avoid when you buy a setting.

 

I don't think I'm too far off the mark here. Someone has already mentioned my "Sengoku" setting. Thanks, mate . Do a google search and it usually turns up in the first page: that's been true for about a decade now. Things have cooled down now, but the site that hosts it used to cut me off every month for exceeding my bandwidth (sometimes with the first week or two!) and it attracted literally thousands of unique hits every month. The adventures have been downloaded hundreds of times, even though I ask people to email me for a download site.

 

Why? I doubt very much that it's the overwhelming attraction of my writing But what I have done - and GM's write back to say how much they like it - is design a setting the a GM can pick up and use in a day or two. Some background, a glossary of cool words/phrases, some maps. Probably not more than 20-30 pages of "stuff". The remaining 600 odd pages are hundreds of NPCs and a critters and enough detailed adventures for a couple of years solid play. The necessary backgrounds, locations and descriptions are included in the adventures, where the GM needs them.

 

Most people who want a premade setting don't WANT a detailed base on which they can build their own unique game. They want something they can pick up and use. They don't need or want to know how many swordmakers there are in "campaign city" - they want something they can run tonight at 6:30 when the players turn up.

 

And the current settings don't offer that - but WW and Forgotten Realms do.

 

cheers, Mark

[Kristopher]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

This may have been mentioned already, but I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread...

 

One possibility is to license others to create settings using the HERO system, and pay a per-book-sold fee to DoJ, or something like that. DoJ would have to retain ultimate veto power over the content for issues of quality and rules, to protect the image of their IP.

 

Just my first thought on the subject.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

And the current settings don't offer that - but WW and Forgotten Realms do.

Yes, that is what I have been saying all along. The current settings [along with not being flashy] are not offering the fans anything extra. The game settings need to be more than Travelleresque or Marvel/DCesque or Thieves World/Conanesque. They need to inspire. If they don't then the GM will just do it themselves.

[Fox1]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Yes' date=' that is what I have been saying all along. The current settings [along with not being flashy'] are not offering the fans anything extra. The game settings need to be more than Travelleresque or Marvel/DCesque or Thieves World/Conanesque. They need to inspire. If they don't then the GM will just do it themselves.

 

 

Even if they did inspire, I'd still do it myself.

 

Frankly I don't like the official construction methods in HERO. I'd have to re-write everything anyway. So from a mechanical PoV, all space given over to package deals, write-ups, equipment, etc. is wasted.

 

As for setting, if they aren't doing adventures I have no need of their backgrounds and 'seeds'. Again I can do that very well myself, and do it specifically for my own needs. Any cool special ideas is likely to show up on the back of the book or in reviews- places that I can steal them from without spending a dime.

 

Adventures is the only thing I'd buy in a on-going basis. Even if I have to convert the builds, it's fun to have maps and drawn out plot lines. That actually saves me time.

 

But HERO isn't going to adventures. And a world without adventures is just plain worthless to me.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Frankly I don't like the official construction methods in HERO. I'd have to re-write everything anyway. So from a mechanical PoV' date=' all space given over to package deals, write-ups, equipment, etc. is wasted.[/quote']

Personally I don't find package deals and weapons/ vehicle write ups inspiring. The cruncy parts are secondary to me when it comes to a game world. Gamers really don't care how cool the bazooka is if the game world they are going to use it in doesn't intrigue them, IMO.

 

As for setting, if they aren't doing adventures I have no need of their backgrounds and 'seeds'. Again I can do that very well myself, and do it specifically for my own needs. Any cool special ideas is likely to show up on the back of the book or in reviews- places that I can steal them from without spending a dime.

 

Adventures is the only thing I'd buy in a on-going basis. Even if I have to convert the builds, it's fun to have maps and drawn out plot lines. That actually saves me time.

 

But HERO isn't going to adventures. And a world without adventures is just plain worthless to me.

Hero has published 3 Champions adventures. People didn't buy them [did you?]. It's stupid for any company to publish something that people aren't buying. If everyone who clammered about wanting adventures bought them DOJ would probably pump out 2-4 a year for each genre.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Agreed. Kristopher, DoJ does this. I know first hand because I have a license for Hero. Sengoku is something that we at Legendsmiths used as a model example of what many fans want. Hopefully Narosia will do that for fantasy hero.

 

I think the biggest challenge with a supported setting as described by Markdoc is striking a chord. You can support a setting but if it doesn't spark someone's imagination enought to want to play, that becomes a problem. There are a number of d-20 settings out there that have flash and support that I don't see/hear anyone playing because by and large they are just another fantasy setting. Maybe they have a hook, maybe they don't.

 

Hero lacks a supported fantasy setting. TA is supported indirectly via MMM, FHG I &II and so on, but it is unlikely we'll see any adventures/supplements for it. It is what it is and is an excellent world for a GM to take and offer to the players.

 

I hope Narosia will strike a chord with people and offer an experience many are looking for. I know it won't appeal to everyone, but maybe by our doing it we will inspire others to do so.

 

Trust me, Hero licensing is not onerous. I hope that budding writers out there would consider this. As much as I believe in open source gaming, I think the OGL is not a good idea for the health of WoTC (the industry is a different issue). I think DoJ's approach to licensing is ideal, and we certainly appreciate the opportunity.

[Fox1]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Hero has published 3 Champions adventures. People didn't buy them [did you?].

 

HERO used to publish adventures in previous editions. I or my fellow GMs bought and ran every one.

 

In 5th edition, the other GM in our group brought Champions Battlegrounds, but only found one of the five adventures to be worth the running. After that experience and the general declared HERO statement of "we're not doing adventures"- no further money was spent.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I guess the question is how much would you pay for a 32 page module/adventure with nicely drawn maps & characters? Assuming PDF as the delivery form, I imagine most of us wouldn't balk at $1 and $10 would be too much. Where is your "I'd by it if I knew the quality of the product or the demo looked good" point? Is $0.25 per page with 1 page of maps/15 pages a no brainer. That makes a 32 page module $7.50.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I guess the question is how much would you pay for a 32 page module/adventure with nicely drawn maps & characters? Assuming PDF as the delivery form' date=' I imagine most of us wouldn't balk at $1 and $10 would be too much. Where is your "I'd by it if I knew the quality of the product or the demo looked good" point? Is $0.25 per page with 1 page of maps/15 pages a no brainer. That makes a 32 page module $7.50.[/quote']

Most d 20 companies are selling them in the $5.00 - $8.00 range. I don't see why Hero-based pdfs can't be in the same target price range.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

HERO used to publish adventures in previous editions. I or my fellow GMs bought and ran every one.

 

In 5th edition, the other GM in our group brought Champions Battlegrounds, but only found one of the five adventures to be worth the running. After that experience and the general declared HERO statement of "we're not doing adventures"- no further money was spent.

What Hero did 10 years ago has very little basis for what they must do today. I would say I did not care for over half of the earlier modules I bought in those early days, but I still bought them, and so they kept being produced. Perhaps if you and your group had purchased the other two DOJ might have published a forth.

[Fox1]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Perhaps if you and your group had purchased the other two DOJ might have published a forth.

 

Perhaps I will after Steve Long has moved on and HERO has changed direction.

 

The truth of the matter is that I found all the money I spent with HERO after UMA was published to be either largely or completely wasted (UB being a partial exception). I feel no need to support a line of products that fails me.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Perhaps I will after Steve Long has moved on and HERO has changed direction.

 

The truth of the matter is that I found all the money I spent with HERO after UMA was published to be either largely or completely wasted (UB being a partial exception). I feel no need to support a line of products that fails me.

Ultimately your problem seems to be personal vendetta against Steve Long rather than gaming interests, IMO. And BTW, Steve didn't write any of the 3 modules.

[Fox1]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Ultimately your problem seems to be personal vendetta against Steve Long rather than gaming interests' date=' IMO. And BTW, Steve didn't write any of the 3 modules.[/quote']

 

I was unaware that you had the power of mind control and thus was able to force motives upon me that didn't previous exist.

 

I don't know Steve Long.

 

I do however know his work, and his work (outside his editing work which is excellent) is not to my taste, no is his vision of HERO.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Please, let's keep this focused on the topic at hand. I understand Fox's pov, but we have explored that elsewhere. Though I disagree, I value his opinion and want to keep things on track.

 

Thanks.

[Susano]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Perhaps I will after Steve Long has moved on and HERO has changed direction.

 

The truth of the matter is that I found all the money I spent with HERO after UMA was published to be either largely or completely wasted (UB being a partial exception). I feel no need to support a line of products that fails me.

 

Fox1, the record store called. Said you needed to return yours. Said it was broken.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Most people who want a premade setting don't WANT a detailed base on which they can build their own unique game. They want something they can pick up and use. They don't need or want to know how many swordmakers there are in "campaign city" - they want something they can run tonight at 6:30 when the players turn up.

 

I think you've nailed it, at least from my POV. That would also attract more of the do it yourself-ers, like me, because even if the overall setting is not something you're going to run, there are still pieces you can use in your own setting. FH Battlegrounds and Champions Battlegrounds are my two favorite recent Hero purchases for exactly those reasons: they're full of bits I can use in my own campaign when I don't have time to draw up my own castle, or the PCs take a sudden left turn in a direction I'm not prepared for. I know those aren't adventures, per se, but they're the closest DOJ has done lately. And if I'm not mistaken, they both made money, right? I've never understood DOJ's aversion to publishing adventures. Maybe they have a perfectly valid reason, but I don't get it.

 

bigdamnhero

"Hell I dunno, if I wanted schoolin' I'd have gone to school."

[Fox1]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

And if I'm not mistaken, they both made money, right? I've never understood DOJ's aversion to publishing adventures. Maybe they have a perfectly valid reason, but I don't get it.

 

They claim there's no money in them and that as a result writing them takes them away from other money making efforts.

 

I have no source of information to prove or disprove that the claim. All I know is that the lack of adventures is one factor that resulted in me losing all interest in anything besides their core rulebook and the ultimate products.