Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

[Fitz]

Hand-to-hand combat is a very fluid state of affairs, and two fighters will seldom stand toe to toe and slug it out without moving. A skilled fighter can control relative combat positions by targeting their attacks in such a way as to encourage their opponent to move - to keep the sun behind one's back and in one's opponent's eyes, for example, or to maneuvre a foe into a constricted space to hamper their defence.

 

Also, the give and take of combat can have equally-matched combatants skittering and pirouetting about all over a battlefield, without much conscious control over where they end up from moment to moment.

 

What I haven't figured out is an elegant mechanic for replicating this effect. Anybody got any ideas?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

Hmmm. Well, Hero doesn't represent this very well, mainly because it's turn-based. Still, consider that each Inch is over six feet wide -- that's a pretty big space. Also, there's no real reason for two H2H experts to move about the battlefield in Hero, because they can just come together and duke it out.

 

I suggest creating new Maneuvers -- not Martial Maneuvers, but perhaps Standard Maneuvers anyone can do (or perhaps anyone with any Martial Arts skills). Name them, say, "Retreat", or "On the Offensive", or some such, and decide what benefit a character receives for using them. For example, perhaps "Retreat" moves you back an Inch or two, and increases your DCV, while "On the Offensive" requires you to move into your opponent's same hex, increasing your OCV but perhaps decreasing your DCV.

 

Does that help? I'm interested. Maybe I will try to design something concrete. Could also be useful for fencing!

[Baphomet Jones]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

You could also build it as a power or superskill by buying CSL's in HTH with a few limitations on it. I'd figure Requires a half-move:-1/4, costs END, or Requires a skill Roll/activation (to represent the fighter's skill at maneuvering) could all work.

[MitchellS]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

I always assumed that part of this was the effect of combat levels. It's not just punching skill, but also the ability to manipulate foes into positions which better suit your situation [thus giving you the use of your CSL].

[Baphomet Jones]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

Oh Yeah....somehow I totally forgot about Surprise maneuvers, using Acrobatics, and in some cases Sleight of Hand and Acting (mentioned in UMA).

 

Just cerebral flatulence i guess.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

What I haven't figured out is an elegant mechanic for replicating this effect. Anybody got any ideas?

Great question, Fitz! There are few things more boring than having 2 figures stand in the same place and trade blow after blow. (Imagine the swordfight in Princess Bride if they'd been stationary throughout...)

 

One rules-free way to address this is to encourage your players to "narrate" their attacks, rather than just rolling to hit. You don't have to give them an OCV bonus everytime they shift one hex to the left, but if they know that you frequently give surprise bonuses for creative moves, they'll be more likely to try.

 

[War Story Mode: In the very first FH game I ever played, I got in a swordfight with an NPC who I knew was much better than me. I managed to score a lucky leg shot early on, and then kept circling to force him to put weight on his injured leg. The GM gave him a CV penalty for it, which gave me just enough of an edge to win.]

 

Another way to get the miniatures moving on the tabletop is to allow a character (PC or NPC) to adjust his and his opponent's position slightly (1" or less) following any successful melee attack. This can represent simply forcing the opponent back a few steps, or circling around him, or whatever. The opponent can resist this forced movement with a CON or DEX roll, but doing so may give him a DCV penalty or increase the damage he takes by a DC or something.

 

One last possibility: I allow characters to make a half-move after attacking. I know that's Hero Heresy but it encourages players to move about a bit. Most players seem inclined to think first about attacking, with movement seen as primarily getting into or out of range. But after their attack is done, they're more likely to look for other things they can do to round out their phase.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Is this the human value you call friendship?"

"Don't give me that 'Star Trek' crap. It's too early in the morning."

[tesuji]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

I was thinking on this a few months back, i think after watching a buffy ep and princess bride over a weekend.

 

for supers, knockback tends to keep things moving.

 

The notion i pondered was to apply a random movement stage.

 

after any attack in which you use your DCV, IE you are moving to avoid getting hit, roll a D6 and move one hex in that direction. On any phase in which you actively dodge, roll another d6 and move again.

 

That was the beginnings. never went much further than that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

I always just assumed that this kind of thing was going on in any combat.

 

To introduce this element have players describe their combat actions, the GM should describe the actions of the enemy as well in similar detail. If the GM feels a particularly well described action should warrant a benefit then give one.

[Susano]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

In NINJA HERO I talk about this. One method is to use the rules for weapons lengths. People with long weapons will often move back 1" to keep their foe "at range," while the guy with the sword will want to advance to ket in close. Also, use of Arcobatics & Breakfall to avoid Throw damage, Throws, Shoves, and the like all require the attacker to move 1" in the direction of the Throw and the like. You can also encourage the use of Martial Maneuvers with the Full & Half Move required element, as well as giving possible OCV bonuses for making 1/2 moves in a Phase. Also, don't forget about buy additional inches of Running only to make a Half Move (i.e. character with 6" of Running buys +6" "Only To Make Half Moves In Combat," now his Half Move is 6", allowing him to run right up to a foe and attack (just like in the movies!).

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

Encourage gaining higher ground by granting a +1 to hit, or something. Also, if a character with the Tactics skill explains a plan of attack, and makes a successful skill check, I generally have enemy npc's cooperate with the plan.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

It occurs to me that we may be talking about two different things here:

 

1) a way of giving characters an advantage for successful maneuvering in combat, and

 

2) a way to keep the miniatures moving on the table.

 

Not that the two are mutually exclusive, mind you, but what works for one might not work well for the other. If you're not using minis (or counters, or some kind of marker) then it becomes very easy to abstract it away and just picture lots of movement in your mind. But if you are using figures - which I normally do for large combats - then a little more work may be required, as they tend to be fairly static little critters left to themselves.

 

Lots of interesting ideas here! I may have to try out a couple of them.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Wuh duh ma huh ta duh fung-kwong duh wai-shung doh!"

[Translation: "Holy Mother of God and all Her wacky Nephews!"]

[Sunday_Gamer]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

I agree there seems to be 2 main points.

 

1) Theatrical combat movement, which just kinda happens.

 

2) Awarding bonuses and modifiers for such movement.

 

If you want to actually iron out specific bonuses, then the limited combat lvls described earlier work great, I usually just go with the flow. Awarding a +1 here and a -1 there depending on how things unfold.

 

Never underestimate the power of your poetic license as GM.

 

Sunday

[Rapier]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

Hand-to-hand combat is a very fluid state of affairs, and two fighters will seldom stand toe to toe and slug it out without moving. A skilled fighter can control relative combat positions by targeting their attacks in such a way as to encourage their opponent to move - to keep the sun behind one's back and in one's opponent's eyes, for example, or to maneuvre a foe into a constricted space to hamper their defence.

 

Also, the give and take of combat can have equally-matched combatants skittering and pirouetting about all over a battlefield, without much conscious control over where they end up from moment to moment.

 

What I haven't figured out is an elegant mechanic for replicating this effect. Anybody got any ideas?

 

Have your villains start doing it. If the characters are standing next to each other, have the villain step to the characters right and attack. If you really want to promote it give a bonus based upon a Analyse Skill Roll. But be careful this could slow things down.

 

Alternatively, roll a six sided die and that is the hex the character moves to after his attack is over. 1 is upper right, 2 is right, 3 is lower right, etc.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Manipulating opponent position in combat - how?

 

I don't have Ninja Hero, but after reading Surbrook's reply, I wish I did (I have really GOT to get a better local vendor! Grrrr!).

 

I agree with him completely--

and to take it further, I think I'd allows that any move with an actual movement as part of its description such as throws or dodges or possibly even various grappling moves allows the character to place himself (or his target, in some cases) in an adjacent hex. I know that the rules allow you melee in adjoined hexes already; let me explain a bit:

 

In the center two characters are slugging it out in adjacent hexes. Hero makes a "Grab" maneuver, during which he has stepped to the side of his opponent. Say he has gone from the opponent's hex's 3:00 to the 2:00 hex.

 

Villain breaks free, and lunges for Hero, who aborts to a Dodge. In the process of the Dodge, he now has, at his option, the choice of either exchanging hexes with Villain or having 'lead' Villain (via the Dodge) to another hex adjacent to both of their starting positions.

 

Villain then turns and Throws Hero. In the Dodge, Hero was 'leading' villain, but in the Throw, Hero is completely at Villain's mercy, and so Villain may 'throw' Hero into any hex adjacent to his own.

 

Keep in mind that this movement is entirely cinematic, and you may even require certain skill rolls be successful to allow each move, or perhaps allow other skill rolls to prevent being placed at a disadvantage (something based on Combat Sense, etc, should work nicely).

 

Don't let the dance become free movement, however. I wouldn't asses any half-phase penalties, as it is merely a 'side affect' or even just a part of combat. But I certainly wouldn't allow any actual movement that started or ended with such a shift.

 

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but it is completely workable. One of my players ran our group through a short-arc campaign that was essentially an emulation of the fighting genre video games (Street Fighter, Fatal Fury, etc) a few years back, and we had a blast.

 

 

Duke