Curufea Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! No, it would make time travel INTO THE PAST impossible. Not into the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! No' date=' it would make time travel INTO THE PAST impossible. Not into the future.[/quote'] We are all time travelers, going into the future one second at a time. And with every choice we make, from casting a vote to choosing a film to see to having onion rings instead of fries with your cheeseburger, you change the future. And, if you subscribe to the many-wrolds theory, every choice you make actually creates a universe. For example, yesterday I ordered a chicken sandwich and had onion rings with it instead of fries. There could be another timeline in which I had fries, yet another where I had a burger instead of a chicken sandwich, and innumerable other timeles when I went to other places for my meal. And those are all timelines from which I am forever excluded, which I personally will never experience. The idea that every possible variation of every possible event is true somewhere in the infinity of universes is one of the most liberating and horrifying ideas in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! That's PTerry's "Trousers of Time" theory (amongst others) ;-p However - this is specific the the Grandfather Paradox. Changing your own personal timeline such as to cause a paradox. Multiple dimensions with infinite choices have been ruled out (or was in the quantum community, last I checked) - quantum universes only exists for the period of the decision made. ie two results from a single event due to quantum, may be the result of the single event occuring in our universe and another quantum universe, with the results of both appearing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! Multiple dimensions with infinite choices have been ruled out (or was in the quantum community' date=' last I checked) - quantum universes only exists for the period of the decision made. ie two results from a single event due to quantum, may be the result of the single event occuring in our universe and another quantum universe, with the results of both appearing here.[/quote'] To the best of my knowledge, the many-worlds interpretation still stands. I believe Stephen Hawking remains a proponent. Unless something has changed that recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! Do they exist permanently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! I believe the argument is that at the subatomic scale, split particles can and do recombine (recohere?) because of the lack of complexity. But at significantly larger scales the complexity removes any chance that the many component states will overlap. I may be misremembering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! There is no Grandfather Paradox! The New Scientist story. Is that actually good news? I mean, isn't one of the draws, one of the fun parts of time travel the ability to change things? It certainly makes it less fun for role-playing, if you can't alter the past so as to get a present to your liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! It matters not one jot for roleplaying. Choose to roleplay a setting where this theory doesn't exist. Voila! Problem solved. Roleplaying has never been defined (in any RPG book I've ever read) as the complete and accurate simulation of the real world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! Is that actually good news? I mean' date=' isn't one of the draws, one of the fun parts of time travel the ability to change things? It certainly makes it less fun for role-playing, if you can't alter the past so as to get a present to your liking. [/quote'] Well, the "good" part is that the grandfather paradox had been used as an argument that time travel was flat out impossible. This new hypothesis would make time travel less fun, but at least it will make it possible. It also removes the second argument used to prove that faster than light travel is impossible. Two for the price of one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted August 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! Well' date=' the "good" part is that the grandfather paradox had been used as an argument that time travel was flat out [b']impossible[/b]. This new hypothesis would make time travel less fun, but at least it will make it possible. It also removes the second argument used to prove that faster than light travel is impossible. Two for the price of one. . . . And that's a bargain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! Well' date=' the "good" part is that the grandfather paradox had been used as an argument that time travel was flat out [b']impossible[/b]. This new hypothesis would make time travel less fun, but at least it will make it possible. But doesn't this essentially limit time travel to circumstances in which the fact that it's time travel is irrelevant? Think about it: If we travel back in time with any knowledge of the future, paradox is possible. But according to this research paradox is impossible, which means, in all honesty, that we can't go back in time. Right? If you can't change anything, that means you can't interact with anything. And Quantum Physics 101 tells us it's impossible to observe without interacting. So not only can't we interact - which means we can't time travel bodily - but we can't even watch. The only exception would be traveling back in time at a place where we know nothing about the present. In essence, this makes it irrelevant that we're actually travelling through time. Doesn't it? It also removes the second argument used to prove that faster than light travel is impossible. Two for the price of one. Ironically, the lightspeed limit may justify the one instance of time travel that I mentioned above. Let's say we can only travel back in time to places where we cannot create paradox. So I pop one year into the past and one light year away from Earth (never mind how). If the lightspeed limit remains, I now have one year in which no action I take can have consequences on Earth before the time that I left. Hence no paradox is possible. But if we remove the lightspeed barrier, then we also remove that "buffer zone" - paradox is theoretically possible at any distance, since travel time can be arbitrarily reduced. (Actually I suspect we're reading way too much into these findings. But it's fun to casually think it through, like an SF writer. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A. Ward Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! My biggest question is... Who would want to kill their grandfather in the first place?!? I mean, both of mine were pretty likeable old coots!! My maternal grandMOTHER, on the other hand... ~grrr~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! But doesn't this essentially limit time travel to circumstances in which the fact that it's time travel is irrelevant? Think about it: If we travel back in time with any knowledge of the future' date=' paradox is possible. But according to this research paradox is impossible, which means, in all honesty, that we [i']can't[/i] go back in time. Actually, I respectfully disagree. The paper is saying whether you have knowledge of the future or not is irrelevant. Its just that any attempt you make to cause a paradox will fail. And there is the other possibility that one of the events in the past that created the world you live in right now is some time-travel meddling that you did. In that case, events would conspire to force you to travel back in time to do the meddling. Otherwise it would be a paradox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! I went ahead and read the original paper, since we've got an actual discussion going. Here's a quote from the conclusion: According to our model' date=' if you travel into the past quantum mechanically, you would only see those alternatives consistent with the world you left behind you. In other words, while you are aware of the past, you cannot change it. No matter how unlikely the events are that could have led to your present circumstances, once they have actually occurred, they cannot be changed. Your trip would set up resonances that are consistent with the future that has already unfolded.[/quote'] My question is, what does that actually mean? I claim that we're not talking about a situation where you travel to the past, but no matter what you do, you just can't seem to change anything. Because even a small action is going to change something. The very act of observing changes something. (I can't believe the authors didn't think of that.) The only thing you can observe without changing anything is something that you already observed in the past. The only action you can take is an action that you already took in the past. In other words, at least on a macroscopic scale, we're talking about rewinding time, not traveling through time. (On a microscopic scale, it's probably possible for certain changes to remain consistent with the future state.) Interestingly, the equations imply that "many-worlds splitting" cannot occur if you travel backward in time quantum mechanically, because the time-traveling particle resonates with its future state to force one solution. Which on the surface suggests that "many-worlds" and "quantum time travel" are mutually exclusive, if not universally then at least locally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! I think it means that you have the illusion of change- You go back in time and "change" things, and what you change actually was meant to change anyway. You're fated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilyQuixote Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! You know after reading this discussion I remembered playing a great board game one time based on time travel. The name of the game escapes me at the moment but it was made by a company called Cheapass Games. These guys made just that... cheap *** games that had some really bad games mixed in with some really good games. Anyways the game Im thinking of was one of the better ones they made. You played a scientist trying to be the first person in time to build a time machine! Then once you built your time machine you had to race to the patent office on the very first day it opened and be the first person in line to list and patent your invention. Thus you were "officially" the inventor of time travel! It may sound corny and have a total disregard for the science behind time travel but the game was fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! You know after reading this discussion I remembered playing a great board game one time based on time travel. The name of the game escapes me at the moment but it was made by a company called Cheapass Games. These guys made just that... cheap *** games that had some really bad games mixed in with some really good games. Anyways the game Im thinking of was one of the better ones they made. You played a scientist trying to be the first person in time to build a time machine! Then once you built your time machine you had to race to the patent office on the very first day it opened and be the first person in line to list and patent your invention. Thus you were "officially" the inventor of time travel! It may sound corny and have a total disregard for the science behind time travel but the game was fun. That would be US Patent No. 1. James Ernst runs the company, which is still going. They are best known for the legendary "pre-mytsery" boardgame Kill Dr. Lucky, in which the players are trying to be the first to off a wealthy man while trying to prevent the other players from beating them to it. Some of their other titles include Deadwood (try to make money as a hack actor in a B-movie studio) and Unexploded Cow (no sane description of thios game is humanly possible). A somewhat higher-end branch of the company is responsible for Girl Genius: the Works and Brawl, cardgames that frequenlty feature Phil Foglio art (which is fitting as both Foglio and Ernst are in the Seattle area and Phil and Kaja Foglio are the creators of Girl Genius). ernst also won a lot of acclaim for Falling, a cardgame with the simple goal of "be the last player to hit the ground -- you may be just as dead as everyone else, but at least you won!" The weirdest ngame in the line would have to be Devil Bunny Needs a Ham. The title alone would make a great movie. it had a sequel, Devil Bunny Hates the Earth, about suicidal candy machines rebelling against the hideously evil Devil Bunny. I keep hoping he'll come out with a new Devil Bunny game, because the character is just so wickedly cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! Some of the mechanics are a bit simple and some of the game settings don't have a lot of replayability. I didn't much care for Devil Bunny, Bitin' Off Heads or James Bond. However - we still regularly play Ben Hurt. I even made a 3D version of it. (I even did that to Witch Trial which doesn't need it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilyQuixote Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! That would be US Patent No. 1. James Ernst runs the company' date=' which is still going. They are best known for the legendary "pre-mytsery" boardgame [i']Kill Dr. Lucky[/i], in which the players are trying to be the first to off a wealthy man while trying to prevent the other players from beating them to it. Some of their other titles include Deadwood (try to make money as a hack actor in a B-movie studio) and Unexploded Cow (no sane description of thios game is humanly possible). Yeah thats right. Thanks for filling in the blanks! I also played the unexploded cow game and a few of their other games to. My friend who used to lurk on these boards under the name of Dr Lucky (can you tell he liked these games?) had alot of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleDevil Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! Man, Kill Doctor Lucky is great (though it takes a wee bit too long to play), as is Save Doctor Lucky. Thanks for the reminder, Michael. *checks their site* ...Okay, the premise behind Unexploded Cow is just ...brilliant. ...Oh yeah, sorry for the derail. Yay for time-travel, or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A. Ward Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! After reviewing the previous discussion from my vantage point here... outside the normal time stream, I have decided to let you all know what really happens when you travel back in time and change things. It's really quite amusing when you watch it happen to someone else. The writers of the paper are correct when they say you can't cause a paradox... at least, that's the way it looks on your side of the clock. Actually, when you change something in the past, it causes EVERYTHING to change... including your memory of what originally happened! Thus, from your POV, no change occurred. You will, of course, have no knowledge of my telling you this if you ever decide to go back and change something. Time is funny that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! Actually, when you change something in the past, it causes EVERYTHING to change... including your memory of what originally happened! Thus, from your POV, no change occurred. That's assuming, of course, that whatever change you made didn't lead to a future (your present / point of departure) that includes you not traveling back in time to make that change...or you would have a paradox. The whole heart of the "Grandfather Paradox" in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A. Ward Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! That's assuming' date=' of course, that whatever change you made didn't lead to a future (your present / point of departure) that includes you [i']not[/i] traveling back in time to make that change...or you would have a paradox. The whole heart of the "Grandfather Paradox" in the first place. ~falls out of his chair laughing~ You say that every time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! Some observations: 1. I've always felt it should properly be called the "GrandMOTHER Paradox". Offing the grandfather is nowhere near as certain of causing a paradox. Just 'cause he thinks he's your grandfather... 2. The other great big problem with time travel apart from "where are all the time travelers?" is this: Given the assumptions excellently summarized by Dr. Anomaly, sooner or later someone will go back far enough that they screw up the events that led to the invention of the time machine (assuming the past can be altered). Time machine-possible-universes automatically delete the timelines that lead to the development of time travel. By their very existence, time machines assure their non-existence. Keith "Travellin' Man" Curtis PS. I haven't read the referenced article yet. It sounds like just another scientist's "radical new theory". I'll wait for Wal-mart to start selling time machines before I worry about what's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Re: Good News For Time Travelers! I've always felt it should properly be called the "GrandMOTHER Paradox". Offing the grandfather is nowhere near as certain of causing a paradox. Just 'cause he thinks he's your grandfather... Now that you brought this up, the only one of your grandparents guaranteed to cause a paradox is your maternal grandmother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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