IK Hero?

[Cantriped]

Re: IK Hero?

 

I think that could definitly work. One very workable explanation for the early development of certain kinds of tech, and their meshing with magic, is to require all Magic items and spells cost Mana (or Eldritch), this would include golems, undead, any of it. Then limit who has this "Mana" Score to just those with a Talent required for magic. now, in order to gain the tactical advantage of magical stuff kingdoms would have to either rely on Mages to power their stuff diredtly (or perhaps to recharge the "batteries" which could take a long time) or, develop an alternative. Gunpowder and then Steam Engines would be that solution. Gun-Powder allows the creation of weapons which are equilivant in killing power to the mages spells, and Steam-Engines would have developed to produce Eldritch rather then electricity, providing a method of powering magical constructions such as Golems (which would then be renames Steam/War-Jacks because they are not true golems, having no real connection to their creator, but rely on steam power and are mechanical like a jack-in-the-box), and when built into a suit of armor, such an engine could provide great strength to the wearer (through the magical equivalent of hydrolics) as well as power enhanced weaponry (aka +1 Longswords or uber Armor Piercing spears). Since most of these developments were primarially "Militeristic", and as alternatives to magic one can still impose a certain amount of the traditional tech level prevalent in most settings

 

As for using fuel charges, I don't know, it may look simpler, but it makes it more difficult in my oppinon, unlike END, Charges are much more difficult to share across a verity of powers, and are almost impossible to transfer around

[tgrandjean]

Re: IK Hero?

 

Re: fuel charges

 

Actually, what I was thinking was that a fuel charge on movement would be appropriate. Then, a physical dependency to require fuel to operate.

Power the rest with an End Reserve with REC representing 'steam/eldrick power' and requiring that fuel be present.

Heavier use could eat up time faster, but that would just be background.

[BlackSword]

Re: IK Hero?

 

I didn't spend too much time reading the warjack rules, but if I remember right even it was fairly top level. A few hours of non-intensive activity, or a few minutes of intense activity (combat). tgrandjean's description seems to reflect that generality fairly well.

 

I would go with a Fuel Charge to represent the non-intensive activity, and an END reserve recoverable only by refueling for the combat oriented time. If you want to be more precise, tie the Fuel Charge to the precent of END reserve and vice versa. Ie, say you have a Four hour fuel charge, two hours into a trek along a road the PCs get attacked, the warjacks END reserve is now 1/2 its normal starting. At the end of the fight, the Warjack used up 1/4 its normal END reserve, it can only walk for another hour before it needs to be refueled. I would tend to shy away from this as it begins to put a burden on the GM for more precise timekeeping. With a large END reserve the PC literally has to track END for every step the warjack takes.

[Cantriped]

Re: IK Hero?

 

Personally I'd prefer to use END for everything simply because its more internally consistant. Also, once you find a workable value for Coal you can do something much better then merely mimic the mechanics, you can create a system, and while said system may not match the origional IK figures, I bet you it will be a hellav'a'lot more accurate.

While it is true that the PC will have to track end for the War'Jack as it travels, this is a rather simple calculation, just find the things End-cost per turn of travel, and then multiply for time. since the things don't have a Recovery score you don't have to fret how much its gaining back. Nor would you have to worry about converting End back into charges via percentages and stuff (which would take just as long as accounting for movement loss because you still have to figure out how much it lost during combat, then convert the remaining End back into "Travel" Charges.

 

Oh course to achive an even higher level of realism, one could even limit how long each reserve of coal is good for (via placing continueing charges on them) thus after X amount of time that amount of end burns out, even if it hasn't been used yet. Like any realism rule though this means more paperwork and calculation.

However, Its much easier just to say the War'jacks can regulate their internal feul usage based on activity (AkA, not dropping more feul and water into the furnace until its needed, thus keeping the engine running at a lower output) and then storing the excess temporarially in an Eldritch battery.

 

One other important fact is that 'Jacks suck at long distance, they still need refeuling on a regular basis, and its much more effecient to use just one engine to carry the Jack, its personell, and necessary feul, then it would be to keep the Jack active during transport. Althrough they might keep one active in hostile teritory so as not to be ambushed with their big-guns in storage.

[Wolfe-Chan]

Re: IK Hero?

 

Well I have done more work on my Magic System for Iron Kingdoms.

 

This is what I got so far:

 

Iron Kingdoms Talents

5 Sorcerer (Can cast spells as a sorcerer)

Magic Systems

Arcane Magic

VPP of up to 50 points. Limitations: RSR Magic school skill ½, Concentration ½, Can only Change the pool after 1 hour of study 1½, Need bulky spell book ½. All spells must take Incantations, Gestures, Concentration, RSR Magic School Skill.

Magic School Skills

One is needed for each school of magic. All are INT based

Abjuration

Conjuration

Divination

Enchantment

Evocation

Illusion

Necromancy

Transmutation

Sorcerer Magic

Will be a VPP of no more the 50 points in the pool, Limitations will include RSR EGO based magic skill to change spell pool -½, Extra time 5 minutes to change pool -1, Concentration ½. All spells must take Incantations, Gestures, Concentration.

Divine Magic

Divine magic will be bought as a VPP that is no more the 50 point pool. Limitations on the Control cost will be OIF Holy symbol -½, After 1hour of meditation 1½, Concentration ½. All spells must take OIF Holy Symbol, Incantations, Gestures, Concentration ¼.

 

 

Now I am not sure if this will be the final but you will still be able to change your pool in game but it will take a bit of time based on what type of magic you are casting. Extra time is haved because you are only changing the pool and not the spells themselves. I am not sure about on the fly spells(Maybe for Sorcerers).

[Wolfe-Chan]

Re: IK Hero?

 

I am working on some specific skills for Iron Kindoms and was wondering it 'Jack Handling should be based on EGO or PRE?

 

Any ideas?

[Old Man]

Re: IK Hero?

 

Probably EGO, but doesn't it require some sort of magical aptitude as well?

[Wolfe-Chan]

Re: IK Hero?

 

Probably EGO' date=' but doesn't it require some sort of magical aptitude as well?[/quote']

 

I was sort of assuming that. Sorry about that. Thanx for the help.

[gmurie]

Re: IK Hero?

 

I'm just a teensy bit of an IK/Warmachine player (check the sig), and I've been into Champions since the first edition waaaaayyyy back in 1987.

 

Here's what I suggest. Do what Privateer did with Warmachine and their d20 rules. Both systems use the same gameworld, but they're not connected by any rules structure at all.

 

So for a Hero version just use the gameworld info from Warmachine and the IK books and create something from scratch that captures the feel of the world.

 

Another point. Warcasters are 20th level or more in d20 terms. These are people who could smack around a Champions superhero, leave alone a Fantasy Hero character. With the cost of all their followers and perks factored in they'd be in the 500+ points range. It'd be better to leave people of that level of power as NPCs who the players will never even meet except maybe out of combat situations.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: IK Hero?

 

Send me the books and a SASE, and Ill convert the specific IK content and send the books back.

WHOA...you CANNOT pass up such an oportunity.

 

Shadowpup pulled my punkcard and sent me the Warmachine book. It took me a while to get around to it due to other commitments, but I started working out the details yesterday.

 

Here is a sample prototype character that Im roughing out ideas on:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/fantasyhero/contributions/ajifu/allister%20caine.html

 

I have some working conversions for Warmachine stats to HERO stats.

 

WM STR x 3 = HERO STR

WM SPD + 1 = HERO Run

 

HERO DEX =

Take the lower of the characters MAT or RAT or (DEF - 10). Multiply this number by 3; this is the characters HERO DEX. Calculate OCV and DCV from this DEX. If RAT is not the lowest stat, then for each point more RAT than the lowest stat add a Ranged CSL to the character. If MAT is not the lowest stat then for each point more MAT than the lowest stat add a HtH CSL to the character. If (DEF-10) is not the lowest stat then for each point of (DEF-10) more than the lowest stat add a DCV CSL to the character.

 

If (DEF - 10) is less than or equal to 0, ignore it.

 

Captain Vitoria Haley has MAT 6 RAT 5 DEF 16. RAT 5 is the lowest, so she has a 15 DEX in HERO terms and an OCV / DCV of 5. MAT 6 - 5 = 1 so she has 1 Ranged CSL. DEF (16-10) = 6 - 5 = 1 so she has 1 DCV level.

 

Bodgers have MAT 2 RAT 2 DEF 15. MAT and RAT are the same, so they have a 6 DEX and 2 OCV / DCV. DEF (15-10) = 5 - 2 = 3 so they have 3 DCV levels.

 

Asphyxious has MAT 6 RAT 3 DEF 15. MAT 3 is the lowest so he has a 9 DEX and 3 OCV / DCV. MAT 6 - 3 = 3 HtH Levels. DEF 15 is +2 DCV Levels.

 

 

Non characters

= 8 HERO BODY

 

Characters

WM (Damage / 2) + 10 = HERO BODY

HERO CON = HERO BODY

 

WM CMD + 4 = HERO PRE

WM (CMD/2) + 6 = HERO EGO

 

HERO COM and INT have no parrallel so just give whatever seems appropriate.

 

Figure HERO PD and ED from HERO STR and HERO CON a normal. Add WM (ARM - 10) to both.

 

Leave HERO SPD as figured to maintain more of a structured turn Wargame feel, unless you want a higher SPEED game in which case if a character has fractional points of HERO SPD figured from HERO DEX, add points to bump HERO SPD up to the next level unless it would put the character over 4.

 

WM (ARM-8) = HERO Armor, with Focus (OIF Armor Suit, -1/2) applied for fleshy units.

 

 

After looking at some numbers I think the _average_ total attack (counting STR and what not in as well) should be around 9d6 N / 3d6K and the _average_ defenses should be around 15 PD/ED between armor and base PD / ED.

 

 

I had originally thought to have the Warcasters take the warjacks they control as Followers or Vehicles, but its so universal that it just amounts to a lot of pointless accounting so for now I'm proceeding with the assumption that the Warjacks are just automatons that can be commanded by a character with a "Command Warjack" Talent. The game probably doesnt get this granular, but I figure 5 points for steamjacks, 10 points for light warjacks and below, 15 points for heavy war jacks and below. This is very subject to change.

 

 

 

 

I'm still working out the details, but its a start. Hopefully I wont get pulled off onto something else and will wrap this up soon.

[Old Man]

Re: IK Hero?

 

Cooooooooolll...

 

Next Project, send Killer Shrike Hordes Primal.

[gmurie]

Re: IK Hero?

 

@ Killer Shrike

 

I think you're WAY off. I don't think you can accurately derive Champions stats from WM stats. If you are going to try, I'd suggest that you work from DEF as the base dexterity, and use MAT and RAT as indications of combat levels.

 

DEF = DEX (or thereabouts)

Each point of MAT or RAT over three is a combat level.

 

Caine would be DEX:17 (I'd even jump him up to 18 or more) and have five combat levels with his guns.

 

Off the top of my head Caine should be:

 

STR:13

DEX:18

CON:15

BOD:10

INT:13

EGO:14

PRE:20

COM:20

PD:6

ED:4

SPD:5

REC:8

END:50

STN:35

 

He'd also have hundreds of points in powers, skills and perks. Especially in perks if you're going to pay for his warjacks as followers. His guns alone work out as a two separate RKAs with Autofire x2 each doing at least 2d6 damage.

 

If you must start with warjacks I'd structure their rules like this:

 

Give each warjack an END reserve and a limitation that it can't do much more than make a full move or half move and take a standard attack with its primary weapon. To do anything fancier it must spend END from the END reserve. Warcasters get AID to the end reserves of their bonded warjacks.

 

People with the Jack Marshal Skill purchase a "power" that's a skill that just gives a few points to the warjacks end reserve.

 

*******

 

My advice remains this though:

 

Go through the IKCG and create Hero versions of each thing you find in order through the book. Ignore the rules structure of the d20 or Warmachine systems. Focus on the art and the gameworld, and I'd seriously suggest creating a magic system from scratch rather than aping the d20 or Warmachine magic systems, which contradict each other anyway.

 

If you must work from a game system, work from the d20 version, because it's a role playing product and not a tabletop game system.

 

I can give you author rights on my website, http://www.battlecollege.com if you want to post your content there.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: IK Hero?

 

You are of course welcome to your opinion and are free to do whatever you want with your own free time. If you want to do what you suggest, then by all means have at it and good luck.

 

As far as hosting content on your site that is a very generous offer, but I have my own website and thus would hardly need such generosity. As the prototype character I posted is clearly hosted on my own website (the "killershrike" part of the URL being a dead giveaway), I can only assume that you didnt actually look at the character or else are just not very observant. Either way it certainly renders your advice less convincing.

 

As far as converting from d20 I have some experience on the subject as it happens, having provided the most commonly referenced 3e D&D Conversion to the HERO System. I've also converted several other game systems to the HERO System and generally feel that I have a handle on how to go about doing so, but thanks for the unsolicited advice nonetheless.

 

As it happens however, Shadowpup sent me a copy of Warmachine and asked me to convert it and thus I am forced to assume that he did so because he did in fact want a conversion of Warmachine to the HERO System rather than a d20 conversion to the HERO System.

[gmurie]

Re: IK Hero?

 

As it happens however, Shadowpup sent me a copy of Warmachine and asked me to convert it and thus I am forced to assume that he did so because he did in fact want a conversion of Warmachine to the HERO System rather than a d20 conversion to the HERO System.

 

No need to get all in a snit. I didn't intend any insult.

 

If you must work from Warmachine might I suggest starting with the warrior units and solos then? Start with the Long Gunners, Mechanithralls, and Winter Guard.

 

It is a tabletop miniatures game. Not really ideal for translation into an RPG. That's why Privateer doesn't bother keeping the rules of Warmachine in sync with their d20 Iron Kingdoms setting.

 

You'd also be denying a lot of the flavor from the IKCG (Iron Kingdoms Campaign Guide) which of course I know quite intimately from my work trying to cram it into PCGEN. Just for example humanity is divvied up into about a dozen or more ethnic groups. Each representable by its own package deal.

 

What would be very nice with Hero is that the Hero games system would be better set up for Mechanika. The rules in the Liber Mechanika rulebook that they've jammed into the d20 system are ideal for translation to Hero.

 

Any time someone tries to create some elaborate system of complex maths for generating objects of power into d20 Hero trumps it. Hero's just better for creating stuff like Steam Armor and Mechanikal servants.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: IK Hero?

 

Sounds like youve got a lot of ideas on how to do things to suit yourself. Im sure we'd all be interested in seeing the results of your labors if you decide to move forward with it.

[AlHazred]

Re: IK Hero?

 

With Hero, the general rule of thumb is always, "more ideas better!"

 

Feel free to share! Some of us like the flavor of several d20 settings, but prefer Hero mechanics. I'm sure I speak for the rest of us when I say we'd value your input!

[Old Man]

Re: IK Hero?

 

As it happens however, Shadowpup sent me a copy of Warmachine and asked me to convert it and thus I am forced to assume that he did so because he did in fact want a conversion of Warmachine to the HERO System rather than a d20 conversion to the HERO System.

 

I'm quite happy with the results so far too

[gmurie]

Re: IK Hero?

 

With Hero, the general rule of thumb is always, "more ideas better!"

 

Feel free to share! Some of us like the flavor of several d20 settings, but prefer Hero mechanics. I'm sure I speak for the rest of us when I say we'd value your input!

 

Well OK, if you want what I think would be a more accurate translation of the Warmachine stats here we go. Remember that the models in Warmachine are elite, and even the least warrior is at least 5th level in D&D terms. There's also a lot of abstraction in a minis game that creates blank spots that have to be filled in

 

SPD:4 is really slow. Like painfully slow. A move of 4" to 6" and SPD:2-3

SPD:5 is average or touch below. A move of 5" to 7" and SPD:2-3

SPD:6 is a touch above average. A move 6" to 9" and SPD:3-4

SPD:7 is super fast. A move of at least 9" and SPD:4

SPD:8 or more would be superhuman and qualify for SPD:5

 

STR:3 or less is weak as a kitten. STR:5

STR:4 is averagish. STR:8-10

STR:5 is slightly above average: STR:10-12

STR:6 is a bit above average: STR:13-15

STR:7 is getting quite a lot above average: STR:15-18

STR:8 is getting a bit above human norms: STR: 20-23

STR:9 is past normal humans: STR:25

STR:10 is smallest of the heavy warjacks: STR:28-30

STR:11 is just about the strongest thing in WM: STR: 35

STR:12 is the Khadoran heavies, which can pick up six ton robots and throw them some distance: STR:40

 

For DEX and combat values I worked up a formula that should work for most WM models and accurately reflect how agile and skilled they are:

 

1) Take MAT, RAT, and (DEF-8). Average the three numbers and that's the model's base CV. Give it a DEX that'll give it that CV, going high or low based on your feel for the model.

 

2) For each point above the CV you got that the model's MAT is give it a combat level with its melee weapons.

 

3) For each point above the CV you got that the model's RAT is give it a combat level with its ranged weapons.

 

4) For each point above the CV you got that the model's (DEF-8) is give it a generic combat level.

 

Example: Allistair Caine is MAT:5, RAT:8, and DEF:17. Subtracting eight from DEF:17 and averaging the three I get a CV of seven. That's DEX:20, and because he's RAT:8 give him a level with his pistols and because his DEF-8 is nine he gets two combat levels.

 

ARM I'm a little weak on. This is totally abstract by the standards of RPGs. Most warriors that get so much as looked at funny by a warcaster or warjack die horribly and quickly. Usually in large numbers. At a guess I'd say use half of the base ARM value as total non-resistant defense, and ARM-10 is the amount of that that should be resistant.

 

You'd also have to derive CON, BOD, and STUN from a combination of ARM and damage points. Though warcasters have a thing called a power field that's more like an Ablative Force Field that they can recharge, and warjacks are like automatons that lose functions when they take damage.

 

Models of five damage points or less are in the human norm, and few models other than warcasters or warjacks can absorb more than ten damage points which can be bought as their steam armor foci or whatever.

 

Focus I'd use as a rule of thumb for a MPP for the warcaster's spells with fifteen active points for each point of focus. Make each spell low enough in active points cost to allow the warcaster to cast two or three at a time.

[AlHazred]

Re: IK Hero?

 

Interesting. I'll have to borrow someone's Warmachine stuff and see if I agree. I like the more-or-less direct correlation of SPD and STR - in my experience, those are usually the easiest to convert from one setting to another.

[gmurie]

Re: IK Hero?

 

OK, some further thoughts...

 

ARM and damage capacity have to be munged into one calculation. Otherwise you get all sorts of oddness, since most of the warriors, even the most elite like the Stormguard are only one wound. Most of the warcasters have fifteen or more damage points, and warjacks can absorb twenty or more damage points.

 

One wound warriors:

 

ARM:11 or less is pathetic. Look at it hard and it dies.

ARM:12 is low average. Grunt troops with light armor.

ARM:13 is high average. Tougher warriors with medium armor.

ARM:14 is pretty good. Tough warriors with better than average armor.

ARM:15 is getting damn tough. Heavily armored knights in serricsteel plate.

ARM:16 is getting inhuman, like the undead Bane Knights

ARM:17 is way above average, regenerating trollkin warriors and steam armor.

ARM:18 is nearly immune to average attacks of POW:10 like rifles.

ARM:19+ is virtually untouchable by typical attacks. You have to get pounded on by warjacks, and even then there's a chance of survival...

 

Use the ARM value for CON, and at the higher levels feel free to add a few to several points.

For BODY subtract 4 from ARM to get BODY, and again feel free to add a few points at the higher levels as seems apropriate.

STUN should just be calculated.

For resistant defense devide ARM by two and subtract a few points at the lower end of the scale.

[Old Man]

Re: IK Hero?

 

 

SPD:4 is really slow. Like painfully slow. A move of 4" to 6" and SPD:2-3

SPD:5 is average or touch below. A move of 5" to 7" and SPD:2-3

SPD:6 is a touch above average. A move 6" to 9" and SPD:3-4

SPD:7 is super fast. A move of at least 9" and SPD:4

SPD:8 or more would be superhuman and qualify for SPD:5

 

I disagree that WM SPD and SPD in HERO are that closely related.

 

True, It looks like WM SPD would equate to HERO Running. No problem there but overall, only special cases get to perform multiple actions during their turn. This is one of the things I like about Killer Shrike's version. Just like WM, Focus is used to increase HERO SPD, giving more attacks/actions.

 

 

Though warcasters have a thing called a power field that's more like an Ablative Force Field that they can recharge,

 

That's just extra BOD bought OIF, Power Field. It takes damage after ARM (Defenses).

 

Focus I'd use as a rule of thumb for a MPP for the warcaster's spells with fifteen active points for each point of focus. Make each spell low enough in active points cost to allow the warcaster to cast two or three at a time.

 

You have to keep in mind that Focus/Fury have more than this use in WM.

[Cantriped]

Re: IK Hero?

 

The Bodger

"Bodgers are experts at the quick fix, and specialize in tearing down and rebuilding mechanika" (Iron Kingdoms Character Guide, pg 94).

[ATTACH]23998[/ATTACH]

[Cantriped]

Re: IK Hero?

 

"Though it is the steam belchin, metal giants- Warjacks- that inspire such awe on the field of battle, the true power is held by the warcasters" (Iron Kingdoms Character Guide, pg 138).

[ATTACH]24001[/ATTACH]

NOTE:This build is the absolute minimum, and does not account for the cost of the Warjacks themselves nor does it include the Warcaster Armor. As I have yet to make a decision regarding how these will be handled.

NOTE:If you have Modifier Intelligence turned on you may have problems with this Prefab. The reason being that I constructed Warcaster Focus as an END Reserve who's REC costs END to 'maintain' (effectivly they 'transfer' personal end into the Focus reserve to power abilities built into their mechanikal devices and Warjacks.)

[dragntyr]

Re: IK Hero?

 

has any further work been done on this at all?

[Cantriped]

Re: IK Hero?

 

I've made some small changes to the Bodger build,

[ATTACH]25441[/ATTACH]

and did prefabs for Mage Hunters and Gunmages.

[ATTACH]25442[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]25440[/ATTACH]

 

And finally, built in much the same manner as other pools. sample Spellcasting END Reserves for several base classes.

[ATTACH]25443[/ATTACH]

In the equipment tab of this Prefab is also a model for Soulcages.

 

The idea was to buy spells individually (at a small discount most likely; considering how limited the casting pools seem to be).