Turakian vs Valdorian?

[CrosshairCollie]

I was glancing over the descriptions of these two books, and I was wondering what those of you who had (or have read) both of them thought? What are the differences between the two? Recommendations?

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

I was glancing over the descriptions of these two books' date=' and I was wondering what those of you who had (or have read) both of them thought? What are the differences between the two? Recommendations?[/quote']

Depends on whether you want to do Lord of the Rings or Conan the Barbarian, really. Turakian age is high fantasy, high magic, non-human races all over. Valdorian age is low fantasy, mostly humans, barbarians and sorcerors who pledge their souls to unearthly powers.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

Depends on whether you want to do Lord of the Rings or Conan the Barbarian' date=' really. Turakian age is high fantasy, high magic, non-human races all over. Valdorian age is low fantasy, mostly humans, barbarians and sorcerors who pledge their souls to unearthly powers.[/quote']

 

That's actually the kind of comparison I needed. I'm definitely going to look into getting Turakian Age.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

That's actually the kind of comparison I needed. I'm definitely going to look into getting Turakian Age.

Well, before you do that, the Valdorian Age book is really well done. I normally love high fantasy, but the low fantasy system for Valdorian Age is amazing.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

Well' date=' before you do that, the Valdorian Age book is really well done. I normally love high fantasy, but the low fantasy system for Valdorian Age is amazing.[/quote']

 

I'd believe it, but I really don't like playing low fantasy. I need magic ... I tried a swashbuckling game once and just sat there, thinking, "Must ... cast ... fireblast ..."

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

Oh... you can cast spells. Fireblast, yeap an Elementalist do this. You just need to make sure you make your Sorcery Roll.

[Labrat]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

I've been playing with the possibility of the Valdorian Age (i.e. Swords and Sorcery) preceeding the Turakian Age (High Fantasy). High Fantasy seems much more refined cross-culturally, and Sword and Sorcery seems much more cataclysmic, primordial and almost 'pre-historic'. When I first started looking at the Valdorian Age (actually I just got the book this week) I got excited because I might finally have an excuse to use the dinosaur write-ups in the HSB (go ahead... either laugh or agree with me. Dino-Boy, anyone?)

 

VA's magic seems much more difficult, which seems more in its infancy to me whereas TA's magic system (the gods start interacting with people more or less) seems more specialist-oriented. Kind of like Ancient Greece's life sciences vs. modern -ologies. BUT the case can be made (as I'm sure it is, I have yet to read through VA) that at the dawn of VA the gods are through mingling with people as a rule and lack of 'belief' leads to more strenuous magical rituals to match the lack of common magical knowledge. Stick with me here, I may just be tired.

 

So should the VA (SnS) pre-date the TA (HF) when comparing genres and not settings? As of now I'm thinking that one could make a strong case for it, but I can also see the logic in the way things currently are in the meta-HERO timeline.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

I've been playing with the possibility of the Valdorian Age (i.e. Swords and Sorcery) preceeding the Turakian Age (High Fantasy). High Fantasy seems much more refined cross-culturally, and Sword and Sorcery seems much more cataclysmic, primordial and almost 'pre-historic'. When I first started looking at the Valdorian Age (actually I just got the book this week) I got excited because I might finally have an excuse to use the dinosaur write-ups in the HSB (go ahead... either laugh or agree with me. Dino-Boy, anyone?)

 

VA's magic seems much more difficult, which seems more in its infancy to me whereas TA's magic system (the gods start interacting with people more or less) seems more specialist-oriented. Kind of like Ancient Greece's life sciences vs. modern -ologies. BUT the case can be made (as I'm sure it is, I have yet to read through VA) that at the dawn of VA the gods are through mingling with people as a rule and lack of 'belief' leads to more strenuous magical rituals to match the lack of common magical knowledge. Stick with me here, I may just be tired.

 

So should the VA (SnS) pre-date the TA (HF) when comparing genres and not settings? As of now I'm thinking that one could make a strong case for it, but I can also see the logic in the way things currently are in the meta-HERO timeline.

I suppose for what you are asking you can say that Valdorian Age's magic system can be used both before and after Turakian Age.

 

Valdorian Age comes from metaphysical entities that, presumably, get their powers from the Gods. And as such the metaphysical entities are less forgiving in what they can be used for. So in this, I could see that it was only during the Turakian Age that the Gods felt humans were worthy of recieving the power directly.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

Ignoring the presence of Supers for the moment, I think a better case could be made for putting High Magic first, then Low Magic, all leading up to the present-day No Magic.

I realize this is not the model for the HERO system timeline, but if we are taking the settings out of context, this feels more natural to me.

 

Keith "Well who's a little pessimist today?" Curtis

[Labrat]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

I think that this is the logic that ultimately wins the defense for the way HERO currently has the timeline. As a matter of fact that 'cataclysmic feel' that surrounds SnS may actually serve as the best reason for why the Olde Worlde of High Magick has come and gone.

 

I think that the two can intermingle nicely for High Magic Universe/Scarce Magic Ability games. SnS would also translate nicely to Romantic-era games, but many (more unique) High Magic elements would still remain intact. For example, I think that SnS would cover Greco-Roman mythology settings better than any High Magic environment. I better digress before I spin off into a whole thesis here.

[Markdoc]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

Also a common trope in swords and sorcery is the idea of the "golden age" of magic in the past - that humanity has fallen. There's a good reason for this: it lets the writer/GM litter the landscape with artifacts of high sorcery, without having any annoying higher sorcerors to get in the way.

 

I've been running an S&S game for a couple of decades. It's not "low fantasy" in the sense of not having much magic - magic is everywhere and very powerful. But in general I have handicapped magic so that it is not very useful in combat - or that it can be used decisively but only rarely in combat. I also use the "fall from more powerful magic" theme - though not as cataclysmically as in the Hero settings. It's an excellent excuse for "dungeons"

 

cheers, Mark

[CSgeekHero]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

If your trying to decide which one to get in September, get both.

 

Here's my playing Hero Games Salesman:

This month you, YES, you can have both Turakian Age and Valdorian Age for the low, low, low price of...$40.49!

 

I just figured I'd mention that Valdorian Age is on sale for $13.50 this month.

[MitchellS]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

I go the opposite route for describing a magic system's timeline. I think a game would be more interesting by having the VA magic system being the first system in the world. These fledgling sorcerors are making deals with demons, devils, and other entities to have access to power that other humans do not have. Over time something happens [maybe one mage somehow gets too much other-worldly power] and creates a way for magic to be utilized by anyone who has the intellect, patience, and skill. This then sets up a natural antipaty between the other-worldly powers and the races who no longer need them for magic and, in part, helps to lead to the formation of the "other" gods the PCs in a high fantasy game would be worshipping.

[MitchellS]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

I was glancing over the descriptions of these two books' date=' and I was wondering what those of you who had (or have read) both of them thought? What are the differences between the two? Recommendations?[/quote']

The Valdorian Age is Thieve's World's "Sanctuary" sitting in the middle of Hyborea. The Turakian Age is Greyhawk situated on Middle Earth.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

In the end, the ordering really depends on whether one goes for a Romantic timeline or an Enlightenment timeline.

 

Romantic Timeline:

Once mankind lived in Eden, once there were great men and women of incredible wisdom and lore in the world. Then everything went to heck and we live in a fallen age of petty men and women and vast amounts of ignorance. Magic fades from the world and there are wonders lost that will never be again.

 

This is the timeline that tends to crop up in mythology and romantic fantasy worlds like "Lord of the Rings" where every age is clearly cruder than the previous one. And hence in that sort of timeline you have the Turakian Age before the Valdorian Age as the magic goes away.

 

Enlightenment Timeline:

Mankind used to be brutal and ignorant savages, but by the study of the cosmos by learned men, by the struggle to develop laws and moral codes against the chaos of the jungle, we have raised ourselves up from brutish beasts, from savage barbarians to civilized man, and we will raise ourselves up even higher and create wonders in the future. In short, there is a sense of actual progress.

 

This timeline is somewhat rare in fantasy, though it turns up a lot in older school SF and the "Singularity" touches on the idea in a fashion. A few fantasy works have played around with the idea of progress and civilization, but in general the two are often considered to clash. Still, in this sort of concept, the Valdorian Age preceeds the Turakian Age, as mankind moves beyond simple pacts to learning how to work with mystical forces more directly.

[Zed-F]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

Then there are cyclical or oscillating models. There are stories where civilizations rise from barbarism, to the point where godlike power falls into the hands of mortals, and all is progressing nicely. That is, until someone decides to start an armageddon-like war, and everyone nukes themselves back to the stone age, only to start all over again. Or you can have stories where an age of magic of yesteryear wanes, sending civilization towards barbarism, until the development of reason and science brings a new age of enlightenment, etc.

[arcady]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

The Valdorian Age is Thieve's World's "Sanctuary" sitting in the middle of Hyborea. The Turakian Age is Greyhawk situated on Middle Earth.

That's not a bad way of putting it - though I don't recall Thieve's World ever saying much about what was beyond the local region, and I believe there actually are places like Sanctuary in the Conan world (though the visual most people have of Conan is 'Governator in a loincloth' in the wilds).

 

Personally, I think Turakian Age's world works better than either Greyhawk or Middle Earth though.

 

As for timelines between the two, I personally would use them as completely seperate worlds with no connection to each other or any other age.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

While it's not standard HERO timeline, I would think that the 'barbaric' Valdorian age would give way to the more enlightened Turakian ... of course, I try to be optimistic like that.

[Labrat]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

But, as Keith pointed out previously, we'd have to progress from Low-to-High-to-??? Magic if VA preceeds TA. I suppose the Atlantean Age (is this a project in the works?) could begin to outline the reason why Man chooses technology over the Arcane Arts, and where the races of the High Magic realms go off to... but since TVA almost accidently starts the Hero timeline off in that direction (starting to illustrate why magic is lost in the modern age), why mess with it? I'm convinced that TA fits best as older history than VA. Now I just have to read through VA to solidify that conviction... not that I'm losing any sleep to it.

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the sound of my opinion doing a swan-dive like flip-flop. Ta-da!

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

There is currently no Atlantean Age listed in the product listing so I would assume you won't see it until the very least, 2007. I note that there are no Valdorian Age products listed to come out.

[Old Man]

Re: Turakian vs Valdorian?

 

The Valdorian Age is Thieve's World's "Sanctuary" sitting in the middle of Hyborea. The Turakian Age is Greyhawk situated on Middle Earth.

 

Funny I had Valdorian pegged as Lankhmar, and Turakian identified as lower-magic Forgotten Realms.