Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

I am not trying to steal your thunder or anything' date=' but there is already a place for it. RPGArchive has plenty of adventures, hooks, and scenarios for a plethora of systems.

Eherm. Counting one for Champions/Fantasy. I guess there are a few, "Generic," ones though. More, of course, that could be converted or just stolen plot-wise, but...

[jcfiala]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

I like complete adventures, written up in the system they're written for. This is because I am a busy person, who doesn't have *time* to write a lot of stuff in addition to other module prepping, to get ready for a game.

 

And I call out people who say adventures are only dungeon crawls, and only sell well for d20, by pointing to the rich and varied history of adventures for Call of Cthulhu that are out there. There's some that are very bad, yes, but a lot that are very good. Now, if CoC can do it, why can't HERO?

 

I'll have to keep an eye out for Fantasy Battlegrounds, now that I know what it is, and try to set up a FH game in Denver sometime. (In my Copious Free Time.)

[Curufea]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

Eherm. Counting one for Champions/Fantasy. I guess there are a few' date=' "Generic," ones though. More, of course, that could be converted or just stolen plot-wise, but... [/quote']

I was just going to say that

 

So - what should the writing guidelines be?

[arcady]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

The point is - it limits roleplaying opportunities by making entire races two dimensional.

 

I'm not really concerned about the influence the mindset will have. That's off topic.

The notion of the racism in DnD is really quite simple and I think can be shown to be intentional, albeit the intent is with the sources that inspired DnD more than DnD itself. Sources Gygax is on record as not wanting to include in DnD but having done so only to satisfy his initial players.

 

It stems in the notion of 'racialism' as expressed by W.E.B. DuBois:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racialism

W.E.B. DuBois argues that racialism is the philosophical belief that differences between the races exist, be it biological, social, psychological, or in the realm of the "soul". He then goes on to argue that racism is using this belief to push forward the argument that one's particular race is superior to the others.

Therefore, Dubois separates the conditions of racism from racism itself. (Anthony Kwame Appiah summarises Dubois' position in his book In my father's house, chapter 3.) Racialism in this view is a value-neutral philosophy, while racism is a value-charged ideology.

 

The conflicts in DnD set forth the premise that racialism is true. Races are set out through stat differences as being unequal, and through alignment as being different in the soul.

 

None of that is inherent to the fantasy genre, and is in fact quite rare in the literature. So one has to wonder why it is in DnD and why gamers are so adamant about sticking to it.

 

For that, look to its source, it frankly, comes from Tolkien and the pulp era writers (within and without fantasy) - many of whom used their literature as tools of propaganda to advocate racist policies in their homelands, nationalist issues based on ethnicity, or even extremes such as ethnic-based eugenics. Those who did not use their literature as tools of propaganda were still reflective of the norms of their peers and their era in propagating these norms consciously or unconsciously.

 

Only a few authors of the age rejected those norms (and I've heard claims that Conan's first author was such, but we can find later people who took up the Conan mantle to have slipped into racialism - especially and strikingly odd given the lateness of its entry, Marvel comics).

 

 

There is no need for any of this in fantasy - and the majority of modern fantasy literature is lacking racialism in its themes even when it has other races and ethnicities.

 

Gygax did not want Tolkien's influence in DnD - he didn't, or so he's said on several occaisions over on enworld - want the elves, dwarves, orcs, et all in the game. I do not know however if the alignment system was desired by him, but I suspect so as Elric was a major influence he did desire, and that has a law-chaos conflict as a major theme.

 

The above in itself might not be enough to really lay a charge against DnD, but it does get much, much, worse.

 

 

If you go back and read the literature and statements used to describe blacks and native ameriicans in the USA over the past few centuries you will find it matches almost -exactly- with the description given to Orcs. It is almost uncanny in how exact the match is.

 

• dirty savage people who plunder and pillage without reason
  
• rape and impregnate -our- women, mistreat their own women
  
• live in the wild jungles and badlands
  
• are nomadic and tribal and cannot ever be civilized or educated
  
• Cannot properly care for the land and only spoil it
  
• are inheriently stupid although strong and brutal
  
• are hairy and have ugly sloping features reminescent of apes
  
• are dark in color and soul
  
• prone to wanton substance abuse and wild ravaging dances
  
• worship dark forces (voodoo or evil spirits).
  
• fashion crude weapons - and in 3e DnD Orc dress and weapons even took on the 'feathered look' of 'indian savages'.
  
• cannot be trusted to keep their word.
  
• They defile the dead (cannibalism / scalping - in the American context scalping and the taking of dead enemy genitalia and fingers were actually US cavalry and 'mountain man' practices and not native practices, despite folklore).
  

etc...

 

Other races could draw parallels to 'the yellow scare' of Chinese...

Crafty, smart, deviant, sexually perverse, steeped in arcane lore and ancient mysteries, beautiful and mysteriously powerful women, etc...

 

The line from a 'china-man' to a drow is thinner than the orc connection, but it can be drawn.

 

There is also a note on color and morality.

 

All good elves are light, and bad elves are dark. That works with most other races as well.

 

 

Again, none of this is inherent to the fantasy genre or needed in any way within fantasy gaming, but it persists in DnD. Very telling is the notion that this is 'just escapism'. The reply to which is simple 'what does it say about someone who wishes to escape into a picture of simplified racially driven morality?'

 

 

There are a few exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions.

[arcady]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

Yes. So possibly "wargame" would have been a better simile for me to use for D&D than "videogame" earlier.

 

Anyhow - How about we start a new thread for plot hooks only? The first entry should define the rules for the thread. I'd like to go with my suggestion of a main idea and three variants to begin with.

Should we define other rules as well? Possibly have names of places in square brackets so people could find/replace easily? Or use a convention of PersonA PlaceA or similar?

I've actually been working up ideas for a thread on 'adventures suited for use in Turakian or Valdorian'.

 

My thought was to insist that at least 2/3rds of the adventures be usable in one of those two settings, with the following basic objectives:

 

• a poster's first and second adventures must be set in Turakian Age or Valdorian Age.
  
• If first Adventure was Valdorian, second must be Turakian (but reverse is not true).
  
• Thereafter, 2/3rds of a posters adventures must be either 'set in' or 'usable' in either Turakian or Valdorian.
  
• build for 4 150 point PCs.
  
• assume at least one magical profficient PC unless Valdorian.
  
• assume at least half the PCs have a viable option for ranged combat.
  
• self contained.
  
• build for play in one to three sessions of 4-5 hours in length.
  
• build presuming only published rules and options 'common to fantasy hero'.
  
• Adventures set in a published setting must assume the world as published at the start of the adventure.
  

 

The goal in the above is to build up a list of adventures primarily for the 'hero' settings - the most likely to be commonly known among us - and then let GMs modify them from there if their own setting is very different. The focus favors Turakian on the assumption that it is more like the style of fantasy most likely to be used by us (and this is an assumption, which if false would mean the guidelines might need correcting).

[mvoncannon]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

I would not force the flip between Turakian Age and Valdorian Age. There are some good writers out there, but they may write better in the TA compared to the VA.

 

Your assumptions for the PCs are good ones and I agree with them.

 

Also, I like your idea of complete, but I would also support making them serial. Or at least the option to be serial.

 

Now the question remains is where to put them. I believe that Steve Long stated they did not have plans to allow non-DOJ employees to write the "modules". So far he has written every single one of them.

 

Repped you BTW.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

Because it looks like I will be doing a Valdorian Age campaign, I may be able to get some adventures out there for people.

[Old Man]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

drool

[arcady]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

I would not force the flip between Turakian Age and Valdorian Age. There are some good writers out there' date=' but they may write better in the TA compared to the VA.[/quote']Thinking about it over the day, I began wondering just how many of us own TA or VA.

 

It might be better if my list instead called for 'mostly TA compatable' adventures, and if set in a specific setting, that should be restricted to TA or VA - otherwise in the genres those two represent and generic enough to 'throw down anywhere'.

 

Of course, even a VA adventure can be 'TA' compatable.

 

In other words - the assumptions I'm working with are as follows:

 

1. It is most likely people running Fantasy Hero are using a setting with a style similar to TA - what I call 'DnD genre fantasy', and Killershrike calls 'high fantasy'.
   
2. Naming any random published fantasy setting with 'who owns x?', more hands in this crowd are likely to go up when TA is mentioned than with anything else - even if that number is not actually a majority.
   
3. If not TA/'DnD genre' in common, most of us have probably been exposed to a good amount of Conan, and VA is likely to get a lot of hands going up as well.
   
4. Even those of us not using TA or the 'DnD genre' are likely to have been subjected to it so often in our gaming careers that we know how to adopt material from it into our own tastes. By contrast, asking the crowd of us to make use of something 'Tékumel-like' in genre would probably be very difficult for most of us to adopt.
   
5. Conan/VA like material is also something most of us could probably adopt over, and certainly is easy to adopt into a 'DnD genre' setting such as TA.
   

 

Those assumptions might be incorrect though...

 

 

Also' date=' I like your idea of complete, but I would also support making them serial. Or at least the option to be serial.[/quote']

I advocated complete so the whole thing can be used to slot in to a GM's own game easier. There's also less issue waiting for parts or dealing with inconsistancy creep as a game diverges more from the script over time.

 

While there is probably a place for serial adventures, they might be better off after several 'one shots' were already out there.

Now the question remains is where to put them. I believe that Steve Long stated they did not have plans to allow non-DOJ employees to write the "modules". So far he has written every single one of them.

Just post to the board?

 

That's another reason for keeping things from being too complex. If the rule became 'must fit within one post'...

[starblaze]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

Yes. So possibly "wargame" would have been a better simile for me to use for D&D than "videogame" earlier.

 

Anyhow - How about we start a new thread for plot hooks only? The first entry should define the rules for the thread. I'd like to go with my suggestion of a main idea and three variants to begin with.

Should we define other rules as well? Possibly have names of places in square brackets so people could find/replace easily? Or use a convention of PersonA PlaceA or similar?

 

Nah, it pretty much feels like a wargame to me.

[arcady]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

Kicked off a plot hooks thread:

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=846716

 

I'm 90% sure the rules I put in it are not the ones everyone wants... but I had to put something.

 

So now, here, somebody tell me what I should have put there so I can edit it.

[arcady]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

The idea is to shoot for a norm for greatest utility by the largest number of people, and then by being in the norm, people outside of that norm will know how to change to fit their special needs.

 

The published settings weren't required. Rather they were listed as the 'only allowed settings - otherwise be generic'. Again to go for norms. If you set it somewhere, set it in the places most likely to be owned by this crowd. Otherwise, don't set it somewhere specific. Turakian compatable is the same thing as what killer shrike calls 'high fantasy' (a term I find misleading - but I seem to be in the minority on that here).

 

I proposed for 150 because that is where likely 90% of FH games start, and people can adjust easily up from there. That seemed to allow for appeal to the largest number.

 

That said, if we're posting them in a thread here, they likely won't have the level of details to even need to list how many points they are for.

 

My thought at least, was 'what rules would make for adventure idea that would be usable by almost anyone with the least amount of work on average?'

 

Sure, the guidelines in fact would not even work for my own setting, but my setting is off the fringes of the norms for gamers. If I wrote plot hooks for my setting, I'd be the only one who'd be able to make use of them, and anyone else would have a -lot- of work to do to make them compatable with their settings. By contrast I could take any 'DnD module' and work it to my setting easily - because I know DnD and I know my setting. I'm working with two knowns there.

 

Likewise 'Turakian' - which is basically 'DnD style in FH, but with more substance'. Any adventure actually suited to Turakian could be adopted by anyone who knew the conventions of 'typical gamer fantasy' over to whatever else they knew well.

 

******

Good call on identifying which published source is referenced when one is used. That might also be a good way to avoid issues with infringing on copyright - if you have a character with a given spell or item for example, rather than typing its rules just type 'fireball with option 3 - Grimoire page X'.

 

That does have an issue for people who don't have that book, but it is better than risking getting 'shut down' for copyright issues. And we all know how to build our own versions of a fireball if we lack the grimoire. A more unusual spell name though might require some further theming, perhaps like:

 

necromantic spells (x on page y, x1 on page y1, x2 on page y2, etc, 'custom spell' - statblock) - people lacking the book could then build their own necromantic spells.

 

******

The block you've set up seems more or less ideal

 

I'd propose every adventure being with a short block listing its basic needs:

 

 

Name

subgenre (TA/'High fantasy' or VA/'Swords Sorcery')

Location or location type

*******

(Plot Text)

If a specific location is given, perhaps a location type should be given as well.

 

For example, you might say 'Elweir / major trade city-state - thieve's quarter'

 

So a sample plot hook might look like:

Golden Falcon

'TA/High Fantasy'

Free City of Aarn / major trade city state

*******

PC's are hired by a wealthy arts merchant to recover a mythical statue of a falcon stolen from the Kumasi Jungle 317 years ago. He has tracked it to the city, where one week ago it was bought from an antiques dealer who mistook it for a lead family heirloom by one of his agents. Last night said agent was found dead 'in this very inn' (have the merchant unroll a rug or lift a blanket revealing the body) and he now wants to PCs to figure out what happened.

 

Plot twist one: a rival team - the men who killed the agent, believe the PCs have the falcon.

Plot twist two: The falcon actually does not exist.

Red Herring: the veil / handkerchif of a PC love interest was found on the body of the dead agent.

Plot twist three: some stuff with a wizard, and elf, and an orc I'd develop out if this was more than a 'quick sample'.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

I think you are shooting yourself in the foot with this project of yours. I already see no reason why this project would be of any interest to me. You are setting a rigid set of rules that you want people to follow to create adventures. Then you expect those not using similar rules to adapt them. This is backwards.

 

You would be better off doing it like this:

1. All adventures need to be in with Valdorian or Turakian Age.
   
2. Adventures should have difficulty ratings based on what power level would find the adventure moderately challanging.
   
3. If an adventure requires a magical user, it should provide a suggestion on how to change the adventure to accomidate a party without one.
   

 

All other adaptations should be left up to the GM.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

The published settings weren't required. Rather they were listed as the 'only allowed settings - otherwise be generic'. Again to go for norms. If you set it somewhere' date=' set it in the places most likely to be owned by this crowd.[/quote']And that should be it for the limitation. This is Hero Games, not Fantasy Roleplaying Games. So I agree that this is something that we should limit it to, games in Hero Game Settings. DOJ's survival rests on its ability to sell books. I think it is a great idea for individuals who want to provide fully developed campaign worlds to do so. But if we are providing adventures as a community, it should be for setting books DOJ publishes. If someone wants to convert it to their campaign setting, they can do so. This is the whole reason I created the Valdorian Character thread, to bring attention to a campaign setting that is not getting heavy supplement coverage.

 

I proposed for 150 because that is where likely 90% of FH games start, and people can adjust easily up from there. That seemed to allow for appeal to the largest number.

I agree that the baseline should be 150 points. However, I don't think you should restrict the limit. If someone makes an adventure for their 200+ point characters in Turakian Age and wants to share, it shouldn't be there burdon to adapt it because you think 150 point adventures are more appropriate.

[arcady]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

I made a round of edits, and can easily make more.

 

On the other hand...

 

The only reason I 'started' the plot hooks thread was when I found this, it looked like it wasn't really going anywhere but a lot of talk, and when it got interesting I thought I'd try and kick start it down to the chase.

 

As a late comer though, maybe I'm out of line in that.

 

I can easily delete plots thread and let somebody else start one when you're all ready to.

 

It's not like I have any intention of 'running it' - I just wanted to see it actually start.

 

I'm off for the night, it's 3am here. I'll probably look in some time tomorrow and see what's happened since, and based on that either edit it to what it needs, or delete it and let someone else start it when the time is right.

[mvoncannon]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

You would be better off doing it like this:

1. All adventures need to be in with Valdorian or Turakian Age.
   
2. Adventures should have difficulty ratings based on what power level would find the adventure moderately challanging.
   
3. If an adventure requires a magical user, it should provide a suggestion on how to change the adventure to accomidate a party without one.
   

 

All other adaptations should be left up to the GM.

 

I like this. I would also define the difficulty ratings as well. I believe someone did that in a previous post.

[mvoncannon]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

I made a round of edits, and can easily make more.

 

On the other hand...

 

The only reason I 'started' the plot hooks thread was when I found this, it looked like it wasn't really going anywhere but a lot of talk, and when it got interesting I thought I'd try and kick start it down to the chase.

 

As a late comer though, maybe I'm out of line in that.

 

I can easily delete plots thread and let somebody else start one when you're all ready to.

 

It's not like I have any intention of 'running it' - I just wanted to see it actually start.

 

I'm off for the night, it's 3am here. I'll probably look in some time tomorrow and see what's happened since, and based on that either edit it to what it needs, or delete it and let someone else start it when the time is right.

 

I feel that any information is usable. Maybe not by me, but maybe by others. If you were to post a hook or plots then I would read them. If at a minimum I could mold what you wrote in to my settings.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

I'm not sure about the adventures being based in TA or VA. While I'm sure both settings can be fun, I'm just not into either "generic world" fantasy or sword n sorcery.

 

Depends, for some reason I'm in a psuedo-Germanic/Slavic mood, so if there are any TA areas that fit that bill, let me know and I can build something for that instead of "non-world" setting. I was just not able to get into the TA setting so I never really explored all the options.

 

Also, I'm working on the "introductory HERO system adventure" that Old Man and I were tossing about. I think I'm going to start low (25/25). Well, in fact, I have one of the pregenerated characters finished and would have another done, but the file got corrupted. (I really need a new laptop.) All I can say is that Mike Basinger's character sheet is an excellent resource when HERO Designer can't run on a system.

 

I realize now that I am rambling. I have to get ready for another twelve hours of watching Port-a-potties. Yay. Another message soon.

[Curufea]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

I could do "compatible with TA or VA" I currently don't own VA - I ordered it a few weeks ago but it hasn't arrived yet. I don't game in TA but my own world.

 

I'm more interested in generic classification in the descriptor for an adventure-

"Suitable for high fantasy settings where Gods appear regularly"

"Suitable for high fantasy settings where Gods don't really exist"

"Suitable for fantasy settings with little magic"

That kind of stuff...

 

If you can summarise the adventre/plot hooks that way - then you will know whether it will be compatible with TA or VA, and what style of play if you are using VA or TA.

 

I'll only ever write generic that is compatible with one of the books - I have only enough time to create my own world and run it, and won't bother cross checking the books looking for their names for things.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

Kicked off a plot hooks thread:

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=846716

 

What happened to the plothooks thread? I was thinking about digging through my own FH notes and posting some adventures...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Why are there no Fantasy Hero adventures / Modules

 

Arcady -- perhaps it would be helpful if you would define what you think I mean by "High Fantasy"? Perhaps what you think I mean by it is not the intended meaning....

 

 

Here's a generic description of the assumed paradigm in effect for High Fantasy in the material presented on my site:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/Paradigms/HighFantasy.shtml

 

and here is a general topical coverage

 

High Fantasy frequently...

 

* has an overall high level of "magic" and/or the supernatural

* encompass complex and occasionally symbolic meanings, motivations, and outcomes

* are presented in a series or in a serial fashion, with continuity and persisted events

* involve a struggle between good and evil and/or order and chaos

* have involved cosmologies, often populated by powerful entities

* are populated with diverse and often powerful sentient races

* explore cosmic and/or unearthly questions and values

* include 1 or more journeys, quests, or other notable and heroic undertakings

* have a high degree of focus on the actions of the protagonists

* have malefic and/or consciously misanthropic antagonists

* are generally serious in mood