Duplicates boosting attacks

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Working on creating a duplicator with some energy powers. Each dupe has a multipower with various energy effects such as:

 

1) 10d6 AE: Hex EB

2) 30 STR TK

3) 3d6 All or nothing Transform

 

So, I want the dupes to work in unison to boost these abilities. I've got a couple ideas. First idea is a fourth slot with a Succor to other dupes' multipowers. Second idea is buying extra DC for each slot with the limit: only in conjunction with other dupes. Neither feels terribly elegant. Ideas?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I did something like this with UBO: basically they have a 6d6 UBO attack each (at +1/4, that's only 37 points), and when they join hands and lend the power to the Prime, a real big EB comes out...

 

This is probably not a particularly legal construct (well the construct is OK, the use to which it is put is a bit dodgy), and succor might be a more system friendly approach, but subject to a few appropriate limitations and not bending campaign DC maxima too much, it works nicely.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I asked something similar a while back on the Rules Questions board. Here's the link:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18083

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

Cool, I have som stuff to look at now

[prestidigitator]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I would use the Requires Multiple Users (A.K.A. Ritual) Limitation. Reduce the cost by 1/4 or so to reflect the fact that the Power scales down with fewer people rather than becoming completely unusable.

 

That, or take various levels of Requires Multiple Users on different increments of the dice. So you might have an unlimited 6d6 EB, +4d6 that requires two users, +4d6 more that requires four users, etc. Something like that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I would use the Requires Multiple Users (A.K.A. Ritual) Limitation. Reduce the cost by 1/4 or so to reflect the fact that the Power scales down with fewer people rather than becoming completely unusable.

 

That, or take various levels of Requires Multiple Users on different increments of the dice. So you might have an unlimited 6d6 EB, +4d6 that requires two users, +4d6 more that requires four users, etc. Something like that.

 

I'd say that presdidigitator has it.

 

Hoorah!

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I would use the Requires Multiple Users (A.K.A. Ritual) Limitation. Reduce the cost by 1/4 or so to reflect the fact that the Power scales down with fewer people rather than becoming completely unusable.

 

That, or take various levels of Requires Multiple Users on different increments of the dice. So you might have an unlimited 6d6 EB, +4d6 that requires two users, +4d6 more that requires four users, etc. Something like that.

Is this limitation written down somewhere? I'm not sure I've seen it officially before.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

Is this limitation written down somewhere? I'm not sure I've seen it officially before.

 

5ER p 306, and it isn't quite right having read it again, but it is a good base to start from...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

5ER p 306' date=' and it isn't quite right having read it again, but it is a good base to start from...[/quote']

It was also in some version of Fantasy Hero (under, "Ritual," I believe) IIRC. Not sure which one it first appeared in, though.

 

Not quite right in as far as it doesn't scale, right? That's why I recommended buying it at different levels for different increments of the dice. Not sure if there are other issues (don't have my book at the moment), but anyway it is probably close enough to give a good starting point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

It was also in some version of Fantasy Hero (under, "Ritual," I believe) IIRC. Not sure which one it first appeared in, though.

 

Not quite right in as far as it doesn't scale, right? That's why I recommended buying it at different levels for different increments of the dice. Not sure if there are other issues (don't have my book at the moment), but anyway it is probably close enough to give a good starting point.

 

The way it is written, you can use it without the requisite 'multiple users' but at an OCV penalty, so up the limit by 1/4 and say you can't and you are good to go. Probably

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

That' date=' or take various levels of [i']Requires Multiple Users[/i] on different increments of the dice. So you might have an unlimited 6d6 EB, +4d6 that requires two users, +4d6 more that requires four users, etc. Something like that.

 

Nifty, imaginative, and elegant. Well done. I'd rep you if I could, P.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I'd have a Succor with the +1/4 advantage that it could be used with any of the other powers 1 at a time.

 

Then have each agent Succor each others Succor powers. As the fight continues, the Agents will ultimately have the ability to boost one of their members other powers into the stratosphere...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I've used the graduated Partially Limited version Steve discusses, the Ritual method prestidigitator mentions, and variations on Succor, and variations on UBO.

 

All of them have their pros and cons, but for most superheroic applications I find the graduated Partially Limited method to work the best, and here is why:

 

Ritual models a situation where you need many people to accomplish a set effect. There is no real benefit for having MORE people than you need, and further you don't get the feel of an aggregate of small effects stacking. Its a fantastic modifier for Fantasy (my own http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/spellweavingDerwydda.shtml Derwydd magic system makes heavy use of it in fact), and is useful in some other connotations as well, but it misses the mark on this one for me.

 

The Succor method usually takes the form of a 0 Range Radius AoE. This can be very effective, but comes with two major downsides. First off it requires an extra Power to make work; Succor and the actual Power to be "shared"; which is rarely efficient. Secondly it is also a book keeping nightmare and can really slow the game down, even with Standard Effect, if there are enough characters with a Succor effect going at once.

 

The UBO method works ok, but the actions necessary to loan out Powers, keeping track of LOS, sorting out UBO vs UBO Simul, and the fuzzy legality of stacking similar (mechanically identical but originating from different characters) Powers are marks off. When you consider the fact that UBO is also an Advantage, so you are PAYING for the privelege of being forced to deal with all the overhead involved in an effect that is essentially a CON rather than a PRO, it's pretty clear that this option is not ideal.

 

Which brings us back to the graduated Partial Limitation. You buy the actual effect desired, and then you apply a LIMIT on when and to what proportion you can use it. Makes total sense, is clean, doesn't require an extra power, discounts the Power rather than costing more, and you get the desired graduated build up rather than the more threshold-like feel of Ritual.

 

Just my $.02

[Dust Raven]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I made a character like thi some time ago, and used the Succor, Other's Only (-1/2), Only On Duplicates (-1/2) option. It worked quite nicely.

 

Alternately, you could buy each of them Absorption, Only Versus Duplicate's EBs with some extra defenses or Personal Immunity to cover the actual damage.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I'm currently thinking of either extra dice or armor piercing (or some such) only with synchronized attacks. The boosting thing just wasn't really what I envisioned. The transform, for example, is an all or nothing, so I was imagining that if several dupes synch up they could transform something larger.

[Mister E]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I take it, you want the dupes to do more than just Coordinate an Attack.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I take it' date=' you want the dupes to do more than just Coordinate an Attack.[/quote']

That is the sfx I desire, but coordinated attacks don't really affect transforms or TK.

[Mister E]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

It seems like there should be some way to work this out, without having to buy special powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

Dupe transforms could well stack - depends on the GM's interpretation, same for TK.

 

What I'd certainly allow is +1d6 (or +5 STR) for 2 dupes coordinating, +2d6 or +10 STR for 4 coordinating and so on - basically do it as an exponential progression, which should still be darned useful without being all out unstoppable.

 

Good practical suggestion, Mister E

[prestidigitator]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

That is the sfx I desire' date=' but coordinated attacks don't really affect transforms or TK.[/quote']

Most Transforms are cumulative, at least with other applications of the same Transform Power. I don't see a problem with Transforms from multiple targets being cumulative with each other as well, as long as they are defined identically (or resonably closely anyway). If I try to, "flesh to stone," someone, and Bill tries to, "flesh to stone," that same person, why shouldn't the Transform Damages add together? [EDIT: Of course, this is after defenses, so maybe it isn't quite what you want....]

 

TK can easily be considered cumulative. There are very simply rules for adding the Str of different characters together. I can't remember what section it is in, but it works thusly: the combined Str of the cooperating characters is determined by adding up all the weights they can lift and looking up the Str required to lift that amount. That means that, if all cooperating characters have the same Str, two of them working together will be the same as Str+5, four of them will be Str+10, etc. Coordinating attacks is probably close enough if the TKs are being used to inflict damage.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

Succor' date=' Other's Only (-1/2), Only On Duplicates (-1/2) option. [/quote']

 

I'm curious---

not picking; genuinely curious. What keeps this from being a double-up?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I'm curious---

not picking; genuinely curious. What keeps this from being a double-up?

Others Only excludes yourself.

Only On Duplicates excludes the rest of the planet.

 

Course, you could probably assume Only On Duplicates excludes yourself, unless you play that you're a duplicate of yourself...?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

I'm curious---

not picking; genuinely curious. What keeps this from being a double-up?

 

Pretty much what ghost-angle said.

 

As I understand the rules, Duplication creates an entirely new character, completely seperate from the base character. It's specifically noted they do not share thoughts, perceptions or even memory of events that transpire while duplicated (though memories do combine when the dupes do). I take this to mean that a dupe is just a second player character played by the same player as the base character. Nothing more. Thus, Other's Only and Duplicates Only are completely different.

 

Technically, I could have just made Duplicates Only a -1 and made it the only Limitation (since by my definition, it could not apply to the base character), but I made it seperate to avoid confusion ().

[prestidigitator]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

DUH! I don't know why this didn't hit me sooner! It is so simple:

EB: 6d6;

Cumulative: Only With Other Identical Powers (+1/2--IIRC);

This is actually less unbalanced than a normal use of Cumulative; there is normally no real limit to how much you can stack a Cumulative attack with itself, so if you have a 1d6 Cumulative EB and they have 60 PD, you can just keep attacking and attacking and attacking. If the EB is only cumulative with other Powers, you can only stack as many effects as you have Powers to stack together!

 

Therefore you and the Duplicates can all attack and add together your results before applying them to the target. If you want to have one coordinator, you can add UBO and simply have the coordinating attacker do a Multiple-Power Attack with all the EBs of the others plus his/her own.

[Adventus]

Re: Duplicates boosting attacks

 

This would be a great use for the Threshold Framework that KillerShrike came up with. As the dupes boost each others powers they pass thresholds giving them more power and powers.