basic permanent stats

[prismrpg]

what are the basic permanent stats for a Hero Games rpg player-character? is Hero Games a general rpg or more specifically for science fiction?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

You can learn a lot more about the Hero System here.

[Trebuchet]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

Hero is a general purpose system and can be used for virtually any genre, although I think it's area of greatest strength is in superhero gaming (not surprising since the system started out as Champions). But over the past 23 years I've played supers, pulp, fantasy, and modern action/adventure with the system and it worked well for all of them.

[prismrpg]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

thanks for the informative replies. i was hoping Hero is a general rpg and i am glad that the name was changed from Champions. i don't like the name Champions because it implies above-average. i want my character in the Hero rpg to be average--is that allowed by the rules?

[Steve]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

Well, average is a relative term in Hero. You could make a character on 50 points, 200 points, 1000 points, etc. Do you mean average for a specific campaign, or an Average Joe?

 

In a Superhero campaign, an example average would be 350 points.

 

In a Heroic campaign, an example average would be 150 points.

 

YMMV

[Ura-Maru]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

It depends on what you mean by ‘average.’

 

(Get used to ‘It Depends’ type answers. Hero is a very flexible system, and as a result almost everything about it varies from campaign to campaign)

 

Hero is, however, at heart, a fairly cinematic system. While its certainly possible to use it for ‘low fantasy’ or modern action adventure, you’re going to run into some problems if you’re trying to simulate real real life, as opposed to movie/book real life.

 

So, what type of campaign were you thinking of?

 

(And were you asking for basic character stat numbers, what the basic stats mean, or some example write-ups?)

 

---

Short version, you’re gritty post-apocolyptic campaign is going to be Fallout, not Aftermath . . .

 

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

I'll try my crack at answering this....

 

As a universal points based system, HERO can be used to model almost any genre. In most games, all characters start off with base 10's in all primary stats, which is slightly more competent than your average man on the street, who is generally built wirth base stats of 8's. The power level of characters is determined by two main things... the total number of points you give the players to work with, and "campaign guidelines" set down by you, the GM, to keep certain aspects like combat abilities at a level consistant with your campaign.

 

The number of available points is split into a couple of different categories... Base points are the "free" points everyone gets to customise their characters. Disadvantage points are additional points that a character MAY take to be more effective at the expence of having some built in weaknesses. The overall tone of character design and power can be tweaked in a wide variety of fashions by adjusting these values. The final source of character points is Experience, which is accumulated during play and treated in the same fashion as additional starting points. Obviously, the more Starting points + Disadvatages available, the stronger the characters, and the less "overall effect" experience will have on character development.

 

On to some cinematic examples, as a way of illustrating.

Many Zombie movies, such as 28 Days Later, Night of the Living Dead and the like feature normal run of the mill everyday folks facing extraordinary circumstances. to model this genre, it'd be fairly appropriate to start everyone off with Primary Stats as 8's, with 25 starting points (starting with all 8's is effectivly -25 points, anyway) and up to 25 points worth of Disads will give you heros with feet of clay... mailmen, cops, grocery store clerks, housewives. They can be effective in their own special ways, but will not be anything approaching action movie hero level. They will lkearn quickly, however, and will rapidly grow more competent (if they survive) as the campaign progresses. (This power level defines most characters in some other types of stories, basically any genre where "just plain folks" are trying to survive the threat of the environment... Disaster Movies, End of the World Apocolyptic drama's, and many Monster movie styles).

 

Bump the stats up to base 10's and the characters will suddenly become a bit more competent, but still quite mundane... probably around your average Buddy cop movie level.

Increasing the base points will increase either the overall power or diversity of the characters. In general, you'll find that most HERO veterans will refer to point levels as an absolute # based on the total of Base + Disads... so a 75+75 campaign will usually be refered to as having 150 point characters, as it's expected that most players will max out disads (or at least come close). Up to a certain level, the flavor of characters can be modified by the way you decide they get their points.

At the 150 point level, characters are action movie level characters... The Marines in Aliens, the special forces guys in Predator... John McLaine in Diehard, Westley and Inigo from Princess Bride. By mainpulating the initial levels, you modifiy the feel of the characters. In Lethal Weapon, for instance, a good argument could be made that the characters, while at the 150 point max starting level, were probably built on 50 base points +100 disads. Thus, Sgt. Murgtagh is competent, but not excepetional... but doesn't have a lot of disadvatages other than a DNPC family, a "Subject to orders" Social limit, and a Psyche limit or two. Riggs, on the other hand, is a combat monster, but pays for it by being a complete basket case... a sure sign of a character with lots of Disads.

 

Then you begin to get into the Superheroic levels.

at 200- 250 total starting points, you're looking at characters who are superhuman, in either the classic comic book sence, or in the literary and cinematic fashion. The Bride from Kill Bill, most of Arnie the Governators solo heros, Zorro, Marv from Sin City and pretty much any other character capable of mowing through legions of badguys and facing untold dangers. Some of the more "normal" or street level comic book characters, such as the Punisher, can be built at this level.

 

At the "standard comic book superhero" level of 350 points, you get into enough points to create a full spectrum comic book superhero. This is the level for your Spiderman/Batman/X-men types. BEar in mind that this is a starting level... not representing the heros you have read in the comics with some 20 odd years worth of experience, but closer to the way they were when they started. You don't see this power level outside of comicbook supers very often... tho occasionally you might. Gandalf from Lord of the Rings and Neo from The Matrix could both probably be competently built at this level.

 

As you get above this starting level, you are looking at similar characters with simply more power or diversity. Add an extra hundred starting points and your characters will resemble the comic charcaters in their heyday. Add a couple hundred more and you begin to get into "cosmic level" supers... Superman, Dr. Strange, Green Lantern and the like.

 

Additionally... in setting up a campaign, if you have good experienced roleplayers, it is possible to run a game with different starting point levels for different characters. It takes players who are more interested in the story than competing with each other, but can be quite rewarding. Lord of the Rings is an excellent example of such a setting... The Hobbits are all fairly low point characters to begin with, most of the rest of the members of the fellowship are Heros (probably around 150 points), with Aragorn weiging in around 250 points and Gandalf tipping the scales at 350 or more. Granted, its quite possible that some of the higher point characters are actually NPC's (Gandalf being a prime example). This kind of scale works well with pulp era adventures as well.

Several of the board regulars have come up with systems to encourage this kind of play scaling... A possible example of a way to make this kind of thing more palitable is to set, say, 3 possible starting point values... players at the low end of the point scale gain an extra experience point per session, while the ones at the high end gain one less.

 

Finally, as I mentioned at the beginning of this rant, points are only one way of defining the power level of you games. Putting controls on power levels is another. Maximum combat levels, skill levels, characteristic levels, offensive capabilities, and defensive capabilities all can be set at levels to make your game the way you want it.

 

Good luck, welcome to HERO, and have fun! Hope this helps.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

thanks for the informative replies. i was hoping Hero is a general rpg and i am glad that the name was changed from Champions. i don't like the name Champions because it implies above-average. i want my character in the Hero rpg to be average--is that allowed by the rules?

I believe I hold the record for lowest starting point campaign used in Hero System.

 

My players started with -25 points (all characteristics starting at 8) with only 10 points in disadvantages.

[Zed-F]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

I'll try my crack at answering this....

Good description, AmadanNaBriona!

[prismrpg]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

I believe I hold the record for lowest starting point campaign used in Hero System.

 

My players started with -25 points (all characteristics starting at 8) with only 10 points in disadvantages.

your starting power level, SuperSquirrel, is the one i want for my character in the Hero rpg. as a GM and according to the rules of Hero, do you start all players at the same number of character points so that all players have to be at the same power level when starting the game, or can one player have a different starting number of character points?

[Trencher]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

your starting power level' date=' SuperSquirrel, is the one i want for my character in the Hero rpg. as a GM and according to the rules of Hero, do you start all players at the same number of character points so that all players have to be at the same power level when starting the game, or can one player have a different starting number of character points?[/quote']

You can start with any different number of character points.

If you can stop your players from you, you can even give them different point totals.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

I believe I hold the record for lowest starting point campaign used in Hero System.

 

My players started with -25 points (all characteristics starting at 8) with only 10 points in disadvantages.

And thank goodness you're never trying THAT again . . .

 

 

your starting power level' date=' SuperSquirrel, is the one i want for my character in the Hero rpg. as a GM and according to the rules of Hero, do you start all players at the same number of character points so that all players have to be at the same power level when starting the game, or can one player have a different starting number of character points?[/quote']

For the sake of fairness, it's a good idea to start everyone with the same number of points. You might be seen as playing favorites if you don't. You could justify it by giving points or skills for background or something, or if someone needed a power that fit their character concept, you could give it to them, but make them pay those points from future XP. There are ways around it, but try to be fair.

 

If you want your NPCs to have more points, though, that's quite doable. You don't need to show your NPC sheets to your players unless you want to, so they need never know how many points you built a villain on.

 

Just try to be balanced about it, is all. You don't want to put them up against impossible odds. You'll frustrate and anger your players, that way.

 

As for Josh's low point level game, it has helped the 2 of us who didn't know a lot about the Hero System gradually learn the rules. So it seems to be a good way to figure out the system from the beginning. Also, when your point levels are that low, you aren't as good in combat, so you avoid fights, and this puts more emphasis on the roleplay part.

 

It's been an interesting experiment, anyway.

[Zed-F]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

I believe I hold the record for lowest starting point campaign used in Hero System.

 

My players started with -25 points (all characteristics starting at 8) with only 10 points in disadvantages.

I bet you didn't make them spend points for equipment, though!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

your starting power level' date=' SuperSquirrel, is the one i want for my character in the Hero rpg. as a GM and according to the rules of Hero, do you start all players at the same number of character points so that all players have to be at the same power level when starting the game, or can one player have a different starting number of character points?[/quote']

I do have to ask...why? Why would you want such a low starting point total? What kind of game is it you want to play in or run?

[Barwickian]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

Is this maybe the time to plug my Hero System 5ER review for prism?

 

I thought so.

 

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11174.phtml

[Trencher]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

I do have to ask...why? Why would you want such a low starting point total? What kind of game is it you want to play in or run?

It is usual for GM's to go through an "anti-montyhaul and muchcin" phase.

 

Off course this low char point totals will mean that the characters are not very exiting or original.

[Zed-F]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

Off course this low char point totals will mean that the characters are not very exiting or original.

Relative to what, exactly? I don't think that statement is true at all. I can make just as good/original a background and personality for a -25+10 point character as I can for a 75+75 or 200+150 point character. It just won't be as capable a character. Of course the threats they will be going up against won't be as capable, either. And there's still plenty of room to customize the character's vital statistics, you just have to be willing to drop below 8 in some areas.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

My lowest pont game was a one off for a convention where the players were all members of a boyscout troop dealing with a werewolf while on a camping trip. IIRC, I used all 8's, 20 base points and 20 potential disads. gave enough points for some decent customization even after taking the "boy scout" package deal.

And yes... in an active troop, a good boy scout will have a pretty good spread of skills at either bsase or familiarity level.... as someone noted in one of the multitudes of skill threads, repetetion of use tends to reinforce skills, and in my troop (at least) we used those skills a lot. Now, 25 years later, I have only a few of those skills at a level greater than 8-, but I do still remember a lot of the basics.

[Trencher]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

Relative to what' date=' exactly? I don't think that statement is true at all. I can make just as good/original a background and personality for a -25+10 point character as I can for a 75+75 or 200+150 point character. It just won't be as capable a character. Of course the threats they will be going up against won't be as capable, either. And there's still plenty of room to customize the character's vital statistics, you just have to be willing to drop below 8 in some areas.[/quote']

Sure but when it comes to powers, super-skills and such you are pretty much empty handed. I am playing in a low powerd fantasy campain right now.

My character is a scribe and the adventurer played by the other player is an warrior. On the sheet we are somewhat different but anything he can do I can do. In play that is. Off course it is much better to begin low when you start out anyway, then you can increase in power as you gain xp.

[Zed-F]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

Sure but when it comes to powers' date=' super-skills and such you are pretty much empty handed.[/quote']

This is pretty much true any time you play a down to earth game with minimal cinematic elements. I could make a 75+75 game, disallow magic and other powers, and have everything based on skills and raw stats. This is actually somewhat common as a roleplaying setting, for instance low fantasy or swords and sorcery heroes, agents in modern action settings or Star Hero, and the like. However, it doesn't explicitly have anything to do with the characters' power level (though obviously you can't afford much in the way of powers or superskills on a -25/10 base.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

My lowest character, point wise, was a 45 point character. The GM was running a 50+25 Fantasy game and my first character died so I built a second based on concept and at 45 points (25+20) I hit the concept I was aiming for.

 

So low points can be very interesting, depending on what you want to do.

 

Personally, for people new to the game I recommend a 25+25 approach for new characters - very low in everything but then you're not overwhelmed with it all either. If you really want to get more in I say 50+50 is a good start.

[Trencher]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

This is pretty much true any time you play a down to earth game with minimal cinematic elements. I could make a 75+75 game, disallow magic and other powers, and have everything based on skills and raw stats.

I see you point.

But think of it this way. Two character concepts will go through one adventure, in this adventure they will face two fights. One where they are attacked by unarmed thugs and they don't have guns themselves and one combat where they have guns and are attacked by armed thugs.

 

The two characters are built as combat specialists one with martial arts and the other with guns.

 

Lets imagine that they are built on 75 point base with 75 points of disadvantages. The martial artist takes plenty of martial art maneuvers, buys up his speed and pd, increase his str and con and takes talents that help him in fights.

The gun guy buys up his dex and int, takes skill levels with pistols, buy himself talent to fire two guns at once, buy max allowed skill levels for beginning characters with his guns and takes extra skill levels only to counter hit location penalties.

Now they are in the adventure and as you might expect the martial artist kicks *** in the first combat and the gun wielder in the next one.

 

What I am saying is: If they were built on lower points the amount of asskicking they would deal out in the different combats would be much closer to each other, even though they might fight thugs built on lower point totals.

Do you understand what I mean?

They might look different on the paper but in "actual" combat they would be quite equal.

[Zed-F]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

I understand where you are coming from, but I will note that you can still get a significant degree of separation in character roles and abilities even at -25+10, especially if you take the idea of selling back characteristics to heart. It's quite possible to have one brainy guy with 13 INT and a handful of skills, but pretty weak physically, another fairly buff guy with 13 STR but socially not very apt, another guy who's a naturally fast talker with 13 PRE but without a lot of willpower. They can all have quite different capabilities. Even in combat, you can still have guys that specialize in different weapons with enough of a difference to be meaningful in combat, even if it's just whether you take +2 OCV with a nightstick or +2 OCV with a .45 handgun. Though I will submit that at -25/10, the idea generally should be to avoid combat, not engage in it.

[Trencher]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

you can still have guys that specialize in different weapons with enough of a difference to be meaningful in combat' date=' even if it's just whether you take +2 OCV with a nightstick or +2 OCV with a .45 handgun. [/quote']

Lets say that they fight with guns, then +2 is not really that big of a deal. The nightstick guy will (with a little luck) shoot just as many.

 

Now if you have + 8 then you see real difference in combat. In the example above the gun guy would probably kill twice as many (or more) as the nightstick guy.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: basic permanent stats

 

Lets say that they fight with guns, then +2 is not really that big of a deal. The nightstick guy will (with a little luck) shoot just as many.

 

Now if you have + 8 then you see real difference in combat. In the example above the gun guy would probably kill twice as many (or more) as the nightstick guy.

tend to disagree here...

At the lower scale, the CV's are a LOT lower on the average, so the base chance to hit is a lot lower and that +2 makes a bigger difference. The difference 'tween a 9 and 11 to hit, or 'tween an 11 and a 13 are not to be sneered at... you're hitting the sweet spot of the 3d6 bell curve there.

 

Whereas, the higher scale fights tend, in effect, to have less variation. Yeah, martial arts guy, in a gunfight, might be sporting an 9 OCV (say, 6 from dex, +1 from the gun and +2 from All Combat or Overall levels) while gunslinger has a 16... but against DCV 4-5 thugs, both are gonna hit most of the time. If you play with Crits you will see a greater effect... otherwise, not so much.

 

For me, I tend to keep my more realistic characters maxed at around 4 levels with their specialty. The more heroic or cinematic types, however, I'll go hog wild on.