Which villain needs an overhaul?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Perhaps write-ups for the other "Anmal Villains" under Fenris's write-up.

 

White Rhino got a write-up in The Ultimate Brick, Al the Alligator-man is in Vibora Bay, and I believe the Saurian and El Tiburon are written up in Champions Worldwide.

[Black Rose]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I'd revamp the Sylvestris. And by 'revamp'' date=' I mean 'totally obliterate, except for Giacamo and Astralle, who just became an Independent Evil Sorcerer Of Notable Power, and the Supervillain's Beautiful Daughter'.[/quote']

I have never been able to think of anything to do with the Sylvestris. I mean, I get that you don't have to use the whole family, but aside from the one guy... what's his name... the one with the qlipothic powers, and Astralle, o' course, I simply don't know what to do with them as a group or singly. Maybe stretch the family out a bit more, make them not feel quite so "in each other's pockets". I dunno.

 

Then I'd take the Cult of the Red Banner and kick them up from minor league to major league' date=' thus giving the Dragon's primary servants on Earth a nice exotic flair, instead of simply being "more of the same, evil mages".[/quote']

Oh hell yeah! These guys need more column inches absolutely. AFAIC, they are just what the doctor ordered; evil mages, with some cool martial artists for flavor. Gimme gimme!

[Starlord]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Too true. It's difficult to have an intelligent debate with someone who complains that the science fiction can't be believed because reality gets in the way' date=' while saying that we shouldn't use reality to compare science fiction. Coupling this with extremes of one is either an always-victorious genius or a blithering idiot stupider than mulch, with no in-between is just extreme thinking. Then there's that "last word means I'm right" syndrome. [/quote']

 

I think he's just overthinking things personally. I'm sure all of us have been caught up in a bout of silly logic before. Happens to everyone.

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Too true. It's difficult to have an intelligent debate with someone who complains that the science fiction can't be believed because reality gets in the way' date=' while saying that we shouldn't use reality to compare science fiction. Coupling this with extremes of one is either an always-victorious genius or a blithering idiot stupider than mulch, with no in-between is just extreme thinking. Then there's that "last word means I'm right" syndrome. [/quote']

 

1) Don't confuse 'science fiction doesn't have to obey the laws of physics' with 'science fiction doesn't have to obey basic consistency and common sense'. The first is entirely true... the second is not. Any narrative, whether it be the hardest SF or the fluffiest of fantasy, has to maintain a basic internal consistency with itself, as well as some minimal effort to avoid lynching the reader's suspension of disbelief -- gun on mantelpiece is a revolver in act 1, it had better not be an Uzi in act 2, etc. Likewise, if a villain's backstory and history builds them up as the most successful conqueror of all time, they don't have to be perfect -- but any mistakes they *do* make had better be mistakes that you can *believe* still came from an intelligent, experienced operator, instead of from cartoon Cobra Commander.

 

Or to try and put it in words of smaller syllables -- A-list villains repeatedly making Z-list mistakes is sloppy writing.

 

2) 'One is either an always-victorious genius or a blithering idiot stupid than mulch' -- never said that, and as a matter of fact, said precisely the opposite. When I mentioned that her *third* loss to the Earth dimension did *not* gripe me, precisely because her error in that one was an understandable mistake and not a gaping huge one.

 

Do you ever actually listen to what people are telling you, or are you too busy condescending to their inferior mental states to bother?

 

3) Ah, yes. 'Syndrome'. 'Silly logic'. It's amazing how the very same people who pontificate about intelligent debating are the first ones to sneer that everyone who doesn't yield intellectual right-of-way to them and their POV must be either mentally whacked or stupid.

 

Y'all don't want to debate the issue, then fine, don't debate the issue. But the personal crap and the invitation to flame? Congrats, you just forfeited the right to complain that *I'm* derailing the thread.

[Starlord]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

A-list villains repeatedly making Z-list mistakes is sloppy writing.

 

 

What comics do you read?? Making 'z-list' mistakes (repeatedly) is EXACTLY why every 'a-list' villains loses (repeatedly). It's a staple of the genre, Chuck! While the mistakes can come from other sources, normally they derive from a major fault (cough, cough...Overconfidence: Total...cough, cough) in the villains personality.

 

I still say you're overthinking here and stand by the fact that you're calling on some pretty silly logic with regards to the genre we're discussing in this instance. Claiming to be personally insulted because I declared your statements (not you, your statements) silly just makes me wonder if Kirby is correct in that you're only concerned with winning an argument (presumably by falsely claiming moral high ground) rather than debating a point.

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> What comics do you read?? Making 'z-list' mistakes (repeatedly) is

> EXACTLY why every 'a-list' villains loses (repeatedly). It's a staple of

> the genre, Chuck!

 

Then why do the truly great comics stories -- the ones that are remembered with fondness and respect even years or decades later, such as the original Dark Phoenix Saga, the Great Darkness Saga, Kingdom Come, etc. -- actually the ones who *avoided* that genre staple?

 

For a further discussion of this principle, fire up the search engine and look for my posts from a couple months ago discussing strategy, Sauron, and the LotR storyline.

 

[snip]

> I still say you're overthinking here

 

'Overthinking' should not be used as a criticism.

 

> and stand by the fact that you're calling on some pretty silly logic with

> regards to the genre we're discussing in this instance.

 

Well, apparently I expect more from this genre than you do. I'm one of those people who doesn't believe that comics should be content to live in the ghetto, but should actually aspire to have plots whose main fuel is *not* cliched stupidity on cue.

 

Good God, even action movies are improved by thinking more. I mean, what's one of the best action movies in the genre? Ever? "Die Hard". And why is it that? Precisely because the villain *did* have a brain, and *didn't* just conveniently job to the hero! It was a movie where the scriptwriter "overthought", and thus, it stands as a shining example of its genre at its best while hundreds of other lame-o contenders lavish and die in the $2.99 bargain bin o' obscure DVDs.

 

Edit -- re: the logic thing, there is an obvious exception for comedy, of course. Problem is, wasn't aware here that V'Han's invasion was suppose to be a comedic arc.

[Susano]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Good God' date=' even [b']action movies[/b] are improved by thinking more. I mean, what's one of the best action movies in the genre? Ever? "Die Hard". And why is it that? Precisely because the villain *did* have a brain, and *didn't* just conveniently job to the hero! It was a movie where the scriptwriter "overthought", and thus, it stands as a shining example of its genre at its best while hundreds of other lame-o contenders lavish and die in the $2.99 bargain bin o' obscure DVDs.

 

I have often felt many an action film would be better constructed if the scriptwriter thought more like a GM and less like a scriptwriter.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I might overhaul Doctor Destroyer. While I like Dr. D's writeup as is' date=' I actually preferred his Fuzion makeover better. He came off more like a Darkseid-like villain in that version.[/quote']

 

In my own campaign I've combined elements of that Champions: New Millennium version of Dr. D with his 4E and 5E versions, with a nod to C:NM's incarnation of the Black Paladin:

 

As in his 4E origin, Albert Zerstoiten was indeed aboard a ship leaving Europe that was torpedoed by a British submarine. As the waters of the Atlantic closed over him, his rage and frustration at his thwarted destiny touched a similar spirit deep beneath the ocean: Sharna-Gorak the Destroyer was roused from his millennia-long slumber. Sharna-Gorak was able to project a fraction of his consciousness and power out of his prison and attempted to possess this mortal to use as a host, but Zerstoiten's will proved too strong for the Destroyer's weakened state. In the course of their struggle Zerstoiten managed to convince Sharna-Gorak that they could work together to subjugate the modern world. The two personalities fused into a single malevolent entity.

 

Sharna-Gorak's power sustained their joint body until it could be rescued, but the Qliphothic energies had disfigured it - Zerstoiten's rescuers attributed his injuries to flames from the wrecked ship. The rest of Dr. Destroyer's history proceeded pretty much as in his 5E Champions Universe. Not having access to Sharna-Gorak's awesome magical powers (they mostly remained with his entombed body), Destroyer turned to technology to make up the difference.

 

My version of Dr. Destroyer did indeed die during the Battle of Detroit, but in so doing he also absorbed the life essences of the 60,000 innocent people killed that day. Drawing on those energies he eventually "pulled a Sauron," reconstituting himself with his magical powers vastly enhanced. Unfortunately he still lacks the full power of his original form, and that lack is causing his host body to age like that of a mere mortal.

 

Point of irony that owners of DEMON: Servants of Darkness might appreciate: after his return Dr. Destroyer finally had the power to free his original body and reclaim his full primordial might, but when he did so he found that something or someone had stolen the power from it. The incensed Destroyer is actively seeking the thief, and when he finds him his wrath will be terrible...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I'd revamp the Sylvestris. And by 'revamp', I mean 'totally obliterate, except for Giacamo and Astralle, who just became an Independent Evil Sorcerer Of Notable Power, and the Supervillain's Beautiful Daughter'.

 

Then I'd take the Cult of the Red Banner and kick them up from minor league to major league, thus giving the Dragon's primary servants on Earth a nice exotic flair, instead of simply being "more of the same, evil mages".

 

I've folded the Silvestris that I thought would fit into the Vandaleur clan - I didn't really see a need to have two major European clans of mages with immortal patriarchs. No offense intended to Dean Shomshak, who created the Silvestris for The Ultimate Supermage.

 

OTOH I made Giacomo Silvestri the leader of the Ouroboros cult of Dragon-worshippers (also from TUM), sort of consolidating the servants of the Dragon into one organization.

 

Speaking of the servants of the Dragon and the Cult of the Red Banner, I posted what I've been doing with them to the boards some time ago. Might as well link to that in case anyone missed it and is curious:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=465796

[Kirby]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

As for "organized crime" types, I prefer the "organization" or Cult of the Red Banner. While there are already 4E listings for Iron, Gold, Sodeptan, and Li Chun the Destroyer, (along with different level ninjas!) I personally would like to see Sodeptan have an additional "spark" of powers like the Death Dragon and Li Chun have, even if it's just a BODY drain. Giving him some infernal powers might be nice (maybe Damage Reduction or a lot more Stun). Oh, and additional characters, not all of whom have to be super level.

 

I would like to see written stats for The Man With The Black Eyepatch and Jagatai. In 4E WotD, they said "The man with the black eyepatch is himself a highly skilled martial artist, capable of taking on someone of Seeker's caliber and giving him a tought fight." (p. 128) This is a Seeker built on 544 points. I'd want to see a write up, not a "he's capable of taking on Nighthawk," because that would really tick me off. Jagatai was a bodyguard type; I'd like to see him with not only CSLs, but PSLs as well. Enough to make him scary.

 

Expansions on Tiger Squad would always be nice (and Champions Worldwide may have that). While not an overhaul, I'd like to see "Hercules" changed to Herakles. But that's me.

 

Of course, with a 5E Watchers of the Dragon, I don't know what would upset me more: listing the same characters again, but with the 100 point upgrade, or dismissing them all for new replacements that are essentially the same, just "slightly" different to pretend they're fresh creations.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Well, I would prefer that 5e WotD ditch the "adventure" angle, and essentially serve as a Dragon sourcebook. Thus, still all the info on the Tournament and the Watchers, but the rest covers stuff like the Cult of the Red Banner, Ouroborous, and other Dragon activity ( and counter Dragon activity ).