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Which villain needs an overhaul?


Dominique

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

My personal feeling is that most of the villains need a bump in points. Nearly half of the 258 currenly-published villains are built on less then 400 points. That is fine for one-on-one encounters but doesn't make for much of an interesting fight when you're trying to take one of them against a team of heroes [which is how most battles are]. I have seen six 350 point heroes toast Grond fairly easily [less then 2 turns]. That's not something you should see IMO.

 

As far as who I'd like to see added, I would like to see Sunburst and all the rest of the Project Sunburst characters added back in. It would make for an interesting adventure/sourcebook project along the lines of STAST.

 

I would also like to see some of the team villains make a comback: Panda/Racoon, Radar/Sonar, Thunder/Lightning, etc. I think one of the things missing from the current CU are the well-oiled pairs villains.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I hate to answer this question vaguely, but in essence almost all of them. By that I mean that it's rare that I can use a villain as is. I usually need to tweak something, even if only in a small way, to make him fit. By the same token, that tweaking is usually the addition or rearrangement of points.

 

The main reason I do this is because I want at least one thing on the character sheet to be a surprise for those players who are familiar with the villain.

 

As to which ones specifically need readjusting, I'm not qualified to answer as I rarely disect a villain if I'm not using him (and if I am, then I tweak him, as noted above).

 

Lastly, I'm with Mitchell in that I miss the duos like Panda & Raccoon, Thunder & Lightning, Radar and Sonar. My favorite villain group of the past was the Ultimates, and I'd love to see a modern incarnation of that group (with Anklyosaur).

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Of all the current CU villains' date=' who needs a revision (background, motivations, powers, whatever)? Also, which one of older villains would you like to see make a come back?[/quote']

 

I'm not sure she needs a revision so much as an expansion... Istvatha V'Han is just begging to be the main bad guy in an official adventure, and her resources and followers more fully fleshed out.

 

Gravitar needs something beyond "I'm powerful, therefore I will rule the world by might alone" thing. She's too, is immature the right word? She needs an agenda beyond that imo. I realize you could say that about a lot of villains, but for some reason Gravitar just strikes me as needing it more.

 

CLOWN, alas, alack, ain't gonna happen, since Steve Long hates them with a burning white hot passion that engulfs his very soul... (I maybe exaggerating, but not by much), but if he somehow changed his mind I'd love to see them in all their goofy silver age goodness.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

My favorite villain group of the past was the Ultimates' date=' and I'd love to see a modern incarnation of that group (with Anklyosaur).[/quote']

 

Not satisfied w/ the 5th ed. version, eh? (CKC pg. 101.) I'm not familiar w/ the group as they existed in 4th ed. and prior, but the 5th ed. version consists of Binder , Blackstar, Cyclone, Radium, Slick and Thunderbolt (I). They seem like a pretty well balanced assortment on paper. You've got Entangles, strength, artillery, speed, etc. All you're missing is some sort of mental/ mystical type powerset, but that doesn't really seem to fit the group motif. I've not actually seen them in action yet. Our prior GM never rolled them out on us (at least not that I can recall) and I haven't managed to work them in to my immediate plans to unleash on The Defenders just yet. Were they different before FREd?

 

And, a little Ankylosaur makes any group better! :)

 

Out of all the villains I've reviewed so far in the published materials (and made character sheets for to use in future adventures) the ones that required the most tweaking were probably Thorn and Zorran the Artificer. Both are cool in their own right, and have interesting powersets. Bricks and Speedsters are a dime a dozen in most supers universes, but Thorn's schtick is pretty unique for the most part. And Zorran makes a nice change of pace as a magic user from the usual uber-dark evil demonic mage types like Dark Seraph or Takofagod. The campaign that I'm taking the reins of has been going on for a little over 2 years now, and the majority of the PCs are between the 450-500 pt range, so those two just needed a bit of a boost to get them to the "sub-master villain" level they were intended for. Against a group of 350's, they might be alright as-is.

 

Story wise, I'll agree that Isvatha V'han is just begging for her own published feature dimensional invasion supplement. She's just far too awesome to leave on the 2 1/2 pages she gets in CKC. I'd also like to see what sort of things the cagey veteran Champs Universe GM's and writers have done with Menton over the years. There's a guy who terrifies me.

 

I dig Gravitar. She's the perfect archvillain for a "mutant crisis" style campaign, even without Holocaust's militant mindset.

I sorta like that Gravitar has outrageously powerful abilities, perhaps even potentially more powerful than Dr. D or Mechanon, but lacks the emotional maturity and discipline to utilize them to their fullest. She's still a slobberknocker of a takedown as is, but if she had the methodical nature of some of her counterparts, I think she could literally be unstoppable. Kinda like if anyone else in the galaxy besides Cain had found the Gem of Cytorrak.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I usually replace Radium with Anklosaur in the 5th edition version of The Ultimates. Radium doesn't really fit in with the others.

As far as overhauls, honestly...Eurostar got powered down WAY too much. I'd dare say even a 350pt team has an even shot at taking them out. Plus...5th needs more villain teams.

 

Rob

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

V'Han needs an explanation for why her attempted conquest of Earth didn;t go:

 

* Step One -- open D-gate over the back end of Ceres

 

* Step Two -- discreetly offload Imperial Guard Metahuman Security Contingent along with Large Automated Saberhagen Berserker Factory

 

* Step Three -- steamroller Earth like a walnut under a triphammer

 

 

Even if I have an upper mass limit on my gates, if said mass limit encompasses a fair-sized fleet, then it can also encompass enough advanced-tech mobile manufacturing capacity to *build* a star-cluster-smashing horde army of robot death at the other end, out of native materials... and with a billion universes to recruit from, it can also move enough high-end metahumans to fill in for the battlefleet I'm not moving there 'cause I spent the mass capacity on the start-up capital for Von Neumann Machine Conquest Of Death, Inc.

 

OK, this is an extreme example, but really, for a ruler of multiple entire universes, her statted troops so far were /incredibly/ lame. Did she try conquering us with some provincial satrap's municipal police force, or what?

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I'd like to see a bunch of the villains get a new treatment ... by the same respect, most of the upper-tier villains I could do without. Not a fan of Takofanes or Ishta'van or Warlord. I've retooled those that I've felt needed it ;) Even changed a bunch of their appearances ...

 

As for specifics of the older ones to bring back? Deathstroke, Shamrock, Death Rider & Rainbow Archer :)

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I'm not sure she needs a revision so much as an expansion... Istvatha V'Han is just begging to be the main bad guy in an official adventure, and her resources and followers more fully fleshed out.

 

Gravitar needs something beyond "I'm powerful, therefore I will rule the world by might alone" thing. She's too, is immature the right word? She needs an agenda beyond that imo. I realize you could say that about a lot of villains, but for some reason Gravitar just strikes me as needing it more.

 

CLOWN, alas, alack, ain't gonna happen, since Steve Long hates them with a burning white hot passion that engulfs his very soul... (I maybe exaggerating, but not by much), but if he somehow changed his mind I'd love to see them in all their goofy silver age goodness.

I like Gravitar as is, oddly enough. If only because she is almost exactly like Graviton from Marvel, whom I assume she's based on. He was a supervillain with tremendous power and potential and the soul of an accountant. He never really had grand goals, he had no idea what he truely wanted, he mostly tried to get the "Good Life" and show the Avengers how tough he was.

 

 

Duos would be nice. I was always quite taken with Thunder & Lightning. The Geodesics were one of my favorite teams never to make the jump to prime time (5th edition (or heck 4th edition)). I think there should be more villain teams, but one thing I have noticed? There aren't very many permanent supervillain teams in the comics. A lot of temporary alliances. Perhaps a list of a villains "usual team ups" would be useful. In the write up for a villain, a list of fellow spandex clad criminals that they a) work well with and B) DON'T work well with, would be useful.

 

I'd also like to see some of the "newer" villains given some face time officially to build their history. The only thing that really separates Ankylosaur from Lodestone is that we've known Anky since Enemies II. Lodestone has a nice origin, but he doesn't have the recognition factor for us oldsters. I'm rambling.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

OK' date=' this is an extreme example, but really, for a ruler of multiple entire universes, her statted troops so far were /incredibly/ lame. Did she try conquering us with some provincial satrap's municipal police force, or what?[/quote']

 

I agree that some sort of supplement detailing her forces and the universes under her control would be a great addition to the Champions line. And I agree that her forces that we have stats for are pretty lame. But she does have that 25-point Overconfidence psychlim, so why should she bring out the really big guns to deal with the likes of the Champions and their allies. To her, Earth's superhumans are peasants! The best they could do was stomp on her footsoldiers, so she couldn't have been really trying. It wasn't as if they breached the dimensional barriers to her throneworld, broke through her Imperial Guard (which really need statting out), and threatened her with bodily harm while she sat on her throne. Her attacks sound more like someone bored and playing games, hardly showing any real effort.

 

She should be the type of ruler that inspires fear at her mere mention, like DC Comic's Darkseid or the like.

 

Seriously, wouldn't something like The V'Han Dynasty, complete with stats for her Imperial Guard, warships, available technologies, courtiers and vassal lords be an interesting supplement? She rules an empire of Time and a hundred million alternate Earths she's conquered. At different power levels, it would be suitable for Star Hero, Pulp Hero and Champions. The court she controls makes Ming the Merciless' look like a country squire in camparison. :D

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

V'Han needs an explanation for why her attempted conquest of Earth didn;t go:

 

* Step One -- open D-gate over the back end of Ceres

 

* Step Two -- discreetly offload Imperial Guard Metahuman Security Contingent along with Large Automated Saberhagen Berserker Factory

 

* Step Three -- steamroller Earth like a walnut under a triphammer

 

 

Even if I have an upper mass limit on my gates, if said mass limit encompasses a fair-sized fleet, then it can also encompass enough advanced-tech mobile manufacturing capacity to *build* a star-cluster-smashing horde army of robot death at the other end, out of native materials... and with a billion universes to recruit from, it can also move enough high-end metahumans to fill in for the battlefleet I'm not moving there 'cause I spent the mass capacity on the start-up capital for Von Neumann Machine Conquest Of Death, Inc.

 

OK, this is an extreme example, but really, for a ruler of multiple entire universes, her statted troops so far were /incredibly/ lame. Did she try conquering us with some provincial satrap's municipal police force, or what?

 

Probably. Most dimensions hardly require that much effort (one would guess), and it's not like the CU is a priority.

 

And the problem with assembling the finest forces you can muster and putting them under a single leader (or, assuming multiple dimensional conflicts rage at a time, a small number of leaders), is the risk they might get... ambitious.

 

So you really want to go with the minimum necessary force, assuming you're a dictator who won't be leading it yourself.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

...Seriously' date=' wouldn't something like [i']The V'Han Dynasty[/i], complete with stats for her Imperial Guard, warships, available technologies, courtiers and vassal lords be an interesting supplement? She rules an empire of Time and a hundred million alternate Earths she's conquered. At different power levels, it would be suitable for Star Hero, Pulp Hero and Champions. The court she controls makes Ming the Merciless' look like a country squire in camparison. :D

 

This ia a GREAT idea and hopefully Darren and that other Steve read this as well. I would love to see suppliments that could be used across multiple genres. The VIPER sourcebook has a page or two devoted to VIPER's use in other genres, but this would be a step beyond. One of the HERO system's strengths is that it is such a universal toolkit for gamers, books like this would complement this strength.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Grond and Eurostar definitely need powered up. Even the beefed-up Ultimate Brick version of Grond will be beaten by 2 350-pt heroes, especially if one of them has fire attacks. On a good day, the Ultimates could beat Eurostar.

 

A Darseid-like villain from Empyrea might be cool, the current Empyrean villain doesn't cut it IMO.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

This ia a GREAT idea and hopefully Darren and that other Steve read this as well. I would love to see suppliments that could be used across multiple genres. The VIPER sourcebook has a page or two devoted to VIPER's use in other genres' date=' but this would be a step beyond. One of the HERO system's strengths is that it is such a universal toolkit for gamers, books like this would complement this strength.[/quote']

 

Thanks. I suppose I could write it myself and submit it as a Digital Hero article, or even a series of them. Hmmm. :cool:

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

The only one I've really tinkered with is Firewing (I re-wrote part of his background story, so it was more to my liking). At the moment I'm playing around with PSI. As far as the "Master villains" go, I've never really been a big fan of any of the official villains. Dr. D is okay, but other than that, I really don't like any of them. Ecspecially the Warlord and his crew and Mechanon has never clicked for me.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Thanks. I suppose I could write it myself and submit it as a Digital Hero article' date=' or even a series of them. Hmmm. :cool:[/quote']

Yes, do. I'd really love to see it. Not so much "this month's nifty-wifty aliens" but more the cultures, a good look at her court, the unique military bits she can throw at a recaltriant system, stuff like that.

 

Gosh, it's almost too big to do it all.... Cool.:sneaky:

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Humm...I realy can't speak about what modern (5th Ed) villians I would change if I could.

 

As for the past villians...yes. I prefer them, if only because thay have a rich history already, and for the "don't try to reinvent the wheel" aproch to gaming. (Why make a new villian when an old one would fit the same role.)

 

As for villians I would bring back into the Champions Universe.

 

1) Timemaster: I would keep his powers, then add a VVP to repersent what superweapion he decided to bring with him this time. I would also play up the 'Krang' aspect to him.

 

2) The Geodecents: Basicly, I would keep the names, but change the orgin in such a way that thay could be a bunch of rebelous teens who found a 'blue-boy' space ship, and were inside the ship when it blew up. Thay got out of the ship with parts of the ship implanted into there bodies. Scratch out the Dr. Kirby Loo refence, and have them hunted by The Warlord.

 

3) Sonar And Radar: Keep the same as much as posable, except to empsise that thay are MORE than brother and sister, but also lovers. Hay, thay ARE villians.

 

4) Nutron And Arc: Make them leaders in an underground, pro-mutant group (prehaps founded by Holocost).

 

5) Sunburst: An insain ex-military guy who was afected by the Project Sunburst experment, he now sees himself as a god, and acts acordenly.

 

6) Beamline: I would give him some more plasma powers. Also, I would make him the leader of ARGENT's supervillian branch.

 

7) Powerhouse (anybody remember him?): I would make him an ARGENT agent. Also, I would change his orgin to involve a certan meterite, which exploded and a piece of it is now imbeded in his brain (slowly killing him while giving him the ability to fly and imence strength and size).

 

8) "Genocide": Thay would exist as a semi-secret teroist orginzation which IHA would manipulate for there own ends.

 

9) Profesor Murete and Terror Incorprated: Simply put, I would bring the bad profesor back from the grave, making his armor fused to his skin in the prosses. And then, I would have him reform his old team (as much as he could). His goles: to conqure the world and experment on the population, or to destroy the world if he could not take it over.

 

10) Sparkler: I would give her an "Fierworks" Multipower consisting on vareous fierwork attacks (like an explosion, an autofire, ect...). I might even overempsise her hatred of Americans because she felt she was lied to about the so called American Dream, then make her an agent of the new Terror Incorprated.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Probably. Most dimensions hardly require that much effort (one would guess)' date=' and it's not like the CU is a priority.[/quote']

 

If she invaded the Earth dimension without knowing that it had the greatest concentration of high-end paranormals that her conquest forces had seen in decades (if not centuries) then she has a General Staff composed of congenital imbeciles and a Scout Corps that was recruited from a school for the blind.

 

i.e. -- what sort of idiot invades a planet without knowing what's defending it, how big it is, and what sort of throw weight they got? :rolleyes:

 

If *I* were a dimensional conqueror, and *I* wanted to invade a planet as top-heavy with metas and anomalous supertech as CU-Earth, I'd do one of three things:

 

a) change my mind and not invade

 

B) send the sprocking Death Star, with orders to just blow the planet away -- what I really want are Earth's dimensional nexus points anyway, and heck with it, I'll just build space stations among the asteroid rubble to use those

 

*or*

 

c) send in Gladiator and the Shi'Ar Imperial Guard... even if I have to recruit them first. (Hey, if I'm V'Han then I'm unaging, and the planet Earth ain't goin' anywhere.)

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

i.e. -- what sort of idiot invades a planet without knowing what's defending it, how big it is, and what sort of throw weight they got? :rolleyes:

 

That would be the Clans from Battletech. Or the Lizards from Harry Turtledove's Worldwar series.

 

Actually, in both cases, it's worse than invasion with no intel. The Clans' answer to pre-invasion scouting is to ASK the target what he's got. The Lizards' plan is to show up, realize that the enemy is vastly more powerful than you expected, and invade anyway.

 

:joint:

 

Still, in V'han's case, it could be nothing more alarming than that the calibration on her dimensional gates is a little off... "Oh, we wanted to invade Universe 1,298,379! Sorry, this place looks just like it. Catch you guys... ::checks invasion schedule:: Next year, looks like. Toodles!"

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Guest WhammeWhamme

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

If she invaded the Earth dimension without knowing that it had the greatest concentration of high-end paranormals that her conquest forces had seen in decades (if not centuries) then she has a General Staff composed of congenital imbeciles and a Scout Corps that was recruited from a school for the blind.

 

i.e. -- what sort of idiot invades a planet without knowing what's defending it, how big it is, and what sort of throw weight they got? :rolleyes:

 

If *I* were a dimensional conqueror, and *I* wanted to invade a planet as top-heavy with metas and anomalous supertech as CU-Earth, I'd do one of three things:

 

a) change my mind and not invade

 

B) send the sprocking Death Star, with orders to just blow the planet away -- what I really want are Earth's dimensional nexus points anyway, and heck with it, I'll just build space stations among the asteroid rubble to use those

 

*or*

 

c) send in Gladiator and the Shi'Ar Imperial Guard... even if I have to recruit them first. (Hey, if I'm V'Han then I'm unaging, and the planet Earth ain't goin' anywhere.)

 

 

Isn't it about as energy intensive to ship in an average sized fleet as it is to conduct research? Sure, you might lose the odd one or two to unusual dimensions, but you save a lot of time, and nothing gives intel like the locals going all out to beat up a minor exploratory venture (relative to the size of the empire, an invasion force would be like sending a lone soldier in to take a look).

 

If (as seems likely) a huge %age of all dimensions are pretty much screwed by the bare minimum expenditure of forces, just send that. They're utterly expendable, and nine times out of ten, they'll get the job done.

 

Now, that remaining small number... well, you've already got some data. Do some more investigative work, wait and see how things shape up, _then_ hit it with everything.

 

But as a first encounter, 'invade random world X without risking anything that might be valuable', random minions seem fine.

 

It's not like losing the invasion will have serious consequences for her.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Thanks. I suppose I could write it myself and submit it as a Digital Hero article' date=' or even a series of them. Hmmm. :cool:[/quote']

 

If you don't, I probably will... better idea yet, why don't you fly it by Steve Long and see if he'd be interested in letting you do a book on it? Worst he could do is say 'no'.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> Isn't it about as energy intensive to ship in an average sized fleet as it is

> to conduct research?

 

Serious research can be conducted with half a dozen Skrulls who are all trained up like Jason Bourne. Or one Alpha-class alien telepath. i.e. -- instead of a fleet, I'm moving one stealth shuttle.

 

[snip]

> It's not like losing the invasion will have serious consequences for

> her.

 

Oh *really*? And what happens if she sends an invasion force through blind, and it lands on, oh, a Tyranid Hive World? Or the home plane of the Great Old Ones?

 

V'Han's Dimensional Empire is far vaster than anything known, but it is not infinite, nor is she omnipotent. Any rational amount of prudence would have to take into accoun the possibility of her tripping across some kind of force that *can* hurt her, or grow up to where it could.

 

The reason I mentioned the Tyranid as my example is that they're ideally optimized for the task of becoming a threat to the Dimensional Empire, even from something as small as one partly-successful first contact... because the Tyranid have the same infection vector as the Borg, only *way* harder to catch until it's too late, *way* more infections, *way* more intelligent, and *WAY WAY WAY* more powerful. *One* Genestealer-infected Dimensional Grunt limping back home after an unsuccessful raid on a 'bug world' equals entire planets of her own that are slowly becoming Hives, with everything looking normal until one day... planetary satraps just stop checking in...

 

Meanwhile, back on their side of the D-Gate, the Tyranid Hive Queens have finished assimilating all the knowledge from the captured D-Troops they ate -- yes, they can do that -- and they know how to build dimensional gates. So all of a sudden, at key points all across the Dimensional Empire, D-Gates are opening to release biological death that literally eats planets.

 

Basically, to get how awful the Tyranid are -- combine the infection rate of the Borg with the ability to turn an entire biosphere into mulch rapidly of the Xenomorphs with the infiltration capacity of the Brood with the intelligence of, oh, a comic-book supergenius... with biological adaptivity to the point where anything you kill Tyranid with this month, next month, they'll have a unit adapted to survive it -- even if it means growing biomechanical attack monstrosities the size of titans, that can both withstand and deliver nuclear-scale firepower.

 

And they *grow them*.

 

And so they lose a few planets. And then each one of those planets infects ten more. And ten more. And ten more... (1)

 

And they're not a race I made up -- they're a canonical villain from Warhammer 40k, and really, the only thing keeping them from being the most horrifying thing in the game setting is that that game setting has Elder Chaos Gods walking around like they were people.

 

To cut a long rant short, every time you step through a D-Gate into the great unknown, you risk running into something like the Tyranid. Or the Xenomorphs. Or the Borg collective. i.e. -- even if you eventually win, you've gone through tremendous blood and expense and have had to burn many of your own worlds clean of life first.

 

Rather than risk this all the time?

 

I'd pay for some simple scouting.

 

 

 

 

 

(1) Why doesn't this happen in Warhammer 40k? Because the Imperium of Man already had a policy in place of burning their own 'infected' worlds clear of all life, including their own citizens, *BEFORE* they ever met the Tyranid -- the Chaos Gods had taught them that trick. And so they were saved by their psychotic rabid tendency to overreact... a tendency V'Han doesn't have. And by the time the Tyranid have taught her the need for such, the infection is already in her empire and expanding at a geometric rate, until she starts having to "scorched earth" *many* of her own worlds. Many, many, and many more.

 

Seriously, you make a career of sticking your nose into the infinite parallel worlds, and plan to do so for eternity? Pay for some scouts.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

If you don't' date=' I probably will... better idea yet, why don't you fly it by Steve Long and see if he'd be interested in letting you do a book on it? Worst he could do is say 'no'.[/quote']

 

Heck, get Susano, Enforcer84, maybe BobGreenwade to encourage Steve & Darren as Hermit here has and maybe they would greenlight it. I for one, would spend my hard earned dollar on this before some other projects in the offering.

 

BTW, if they say "No" run it buy some other publishers and let them pay DOJ for the rights to use V'Han.

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Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

To add my opinion on others: Grond and Eurostar need improving. Dr. Destroyer really needs a downgrading (or elimination would be fine by me). I too enjoyed CLOWN and would much rather see them than Black Harlequin.

 

As for V'han, in her background it states "due to the quirky and upredictable nature of interdimensional travel she cannot employ her troops and materiel en masse to simply conquer one dimension after another." (p. 24 CKC) With her initial attack in 1998 and a second in 2002, the pattern may have her attack again in 2006. Maybe HERO Games will produce something akin to Invasion and Demons Rule which is dedicated to the armada she amasses. And history shows several instances where invaders intending on conquering bit off more than they could chew. USSR invades Afghanistan. Iraq invades Iran. The Seven-Day War (Egypt vs. Israel). Three countries (Egypt, Jordan and Syria?) attack Israel. And those are only recent ones.

 

For 4E villains, I'd like to see many of them from Enemies for Hire make a return, like Ack-Ack McCleary, Betelguise, Wraith and others. Thunder and Lightning from 4E always were good to use.

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