Which villain needs an overhaul?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> It's not necessarily stupid. We don't _know_ all the variables.

 

Yes, yes it is stupid. Variables, schmariables, attacking without good recon is stupid. It's stupid at the squad level, the platoon level, the company level, the battalion level, all the way up to the starfleet level. I see no magic "variables" that will suddenly make it a smart idea at the multidimensional level.

 

Try 'relative to total forces available, this IS scouting'?

 

Seriously, it's a relative drop in the bucket, and this way, you win outright on the soft worlds rather than having to take extra time.

[Chimpira]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I did not want to jump in on this but I am having a hard time thinking that anyone is going to send troops into a completely unknown situation as SOP. Sending scouts or spies first makes all kinds of sense. Especially taking into account that she has gotten quite adept at taking over Dimensions. I would imagine that she has a whole ministry devoted to just this one thing. They gather the intel for the Armed Forces and tell them the best places to strike. Of course it is hard work but it would be something that they are specifically trained to do. Without this crucial element I do not see how they could blunder onto a vast Empire and most importantly, keep it. It is one thing to take over a world and quite another to keep it. They need tons of information on how to keep this world and make it a viable colony of the Empire without uprisings happening all the time. Also, bear this in mind, why do you invade anything that has not threatened your way of life? (Unless you are quite insanely power hungry) The world and Dimension must have something you need over the other Dimensions. They would not put all the names of the planets in a hat, shake them up, and have V'Han pull one out. They would scout and report why this system should be invaded before another system. You would probably have people competing to prove that the sstem they have scouted is more worthy of invasion than the other one.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I see no magic "variables" that will suddenly make it a smart idea at the multidimensional level.

 

Lots of fiction, especially of the comicbook variety, suggests that incidents of cross-dimensional travel are highly visible to those who are able to look for them, even at great distances.

 

Perhaps V'han has learned that, since every time she sends in scouts she alerts scientifically and mystically advanced civilizations to her impending invasion, it's best to send in a force large enough to attack and defend on its own.

 

Perhaps she then learned that, in many cases, those "scouting parties" were all that was necessary to get the job done.

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> Lots of fiction, especially of the comicbook variety, suggests that

> incidents of cross-dimensional travel are highly visible to those who are

> able to look for them, even at great distances.

 

Sadly, none of this fiction involves 5e Champions game mechanics re: ED-movement, or even any of the fluff text in Mystic World (the best sourcebook for D-travel that 5e has).

 

> Perhaps V'han has learned that, since every time she sends in scouts

> she alerts scientifically and mystically advanced civilizations to her

> impending invasion, it's best to send in a force large enough to attack

> and defend on its own.

 

And yet on Earth-Champions, which is one of the highest-mana spots in the universe, even the Archmage (when we had him) did *not* get an insta-alert to every dimensional incursion involving only a small group of people, only to actual dimensional invasion attempts.

 

So your theory, while a good attempt, doesn't match up with what we already know.

[Chimpira]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Lots of fiction, especially of the comicbook variety, suggests that incidents of cross-dimensional travel are highly visible to those who are able to look for them, even at great distances.

 

Perhaps V'han has learned that, since every time she sends in scouts she alerts scientifically and mystically advanced civilizations to her impending invasion, it's best to send in a force large enough to attack and defend on its own.

 

Perhaps she then learned that, in many cases, those "scouting parties" were all that was necessary to get the job done.

That makes a little sense but I would say that it would be a lot easier for her to mask a small group as opposed to a large force. No defense is perfect, After it works effectively against the enemy, then the enemy throws its' resources into finding ways to counter it.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Sadly, none of this fiction involves 5e Champions game mechanics re: ED-movement, or even any of the fluff text in Mystic World (the best sourcebook for D-travel that 5e has).

 

They don't really say anything about the detectability of EDM at all, do they, other than it's as visible as any non-modified Power is? That's an argument from silence, and therefore not an argument at all.

 

As it is, Detect EDM, Megascale, is a pretty simple game construct. Cosmic Awareness from the USPD might often pick it up as well, but I don't have the book handy to check the power's details.

 

And yet on Earth-Champions, which is one of the highest-mana spots in the universe, even the Archmage (when we had him) did *not* get an insta-alert to every dimensional incursion involving only a small group of people, only to actual dimensional invasion attempts.

 

We don't really know all that much about the Archmages at this point. At any rate, the possible (but not certain) fact that they failed to detect small incursions doesn't mean those incursions were non-detectable.

[assault]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Ahh' date=' Poland, using horseman against tanks.[/quote']

 

Irrelevant side issue: every major army in the world had horse cavalry in 1939. Why? Because they were militarily effective. They could do everything infantry could do, and were more mobile. They only ceased to be used when there was enough motorised transport to go around, and when it had equivalent cross-country performance.

 

The famous "Polish cavalry charging tanks" legend refers to an incident when the tanks and cavalry blundered into each other around a blind corner.

 

And, incidentally, Poland had a sizable force of tanks - about 900 to Germany's 2700. A quite reasonable force given the relative size of their economies.

 

To bring it back on topic:

 

The thing that bugs me about Istvatha V'han is the conquering whole dimensions idea. What is a "dimension"? Is she really conquering whole universes? Or is she mainly conquering things that are more or less "pocket universes"?

 

Either way, her forces would still potentially be outrageously powerful.

 

More importantly, though, is there a reason why she attacks Earth, rather than some other planet?

 

Without more information, it's a little hard to make sense of her actions.

 

As for the hypothetical Tyrannid universe... there is no reason to believe that her military forces would have any more knowledge about *how* to travel between dimensions than I do about how to make a 747. All that could be learnt from the troops would be the fact that such a thing was possible.

 

Scouting versus blind invasion: it's possible that interdimensional travel is difficult and uncontrolled enough that scouting parties would effectively be being dropped in "blind" anyway. If they are lucky, they mightn't attract attention to themselves, but if they aren't they might find themselves appearing the in middle of a busy city street in rush hour. So scouting might be a bit of a haphazard affair. That's not really an argument for blind invasion, though.

 

Personally, I would treat the situation about like Darkseid's invasion of Earth. Yes, there are/were scouts and agents in place before hand. Yes, the invasion was lead by serious superpowered beings. But most of the invading forces were expendable grunts. I think that the documented V'hanist forces are probably in the latter category. But that raises questions about their superpowered leaders...

[Enforcer84]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Didn't Vahn make a personal apperance? What kind of emperor send poor troops and themselves to an unknown world to conquer it. SHe sounds as tactically brilliant as Fozzy Bear.

[assault]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Didn't Vahn make a personal apperance? What kind of emperor send poor troops and themselves to an unknown world to conquer it. SHe sounds as tactically brilliant as Fozzy Bear.

 

I think people should actually reread her entry in CKC.

 

She doesn't just invade with grunts. She is accompanied by her "trained corps of superhumans" as well. They are numbered in the "dozens", at least.

 

One thing that has occurred to me is that while she can travel between dimensions, it's not clear that her subordinates can do so without her. While it would make her empire somewhat unworkable, it is quite possible that her presence is actually necessary to invade, or even scout, a target world.

 

It makes you wonder what her "empire" is actually like.

[Starlord]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

If master villains never made big mistakes or bad judgement calls...there wouldn't be any superheroes.

[levi]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

Overall, I think we have answered the Question of the original Post. Istvatha V'Han seems to be the one who needs the biggest overhaul.

 

We might want to start another thread, something like "What would you like to see for the Empress of a Thousand Dimensions."

[Susano]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

"What would you like to see for the Empress of a Thousand Dimensions."

 

An appearance in Playboy.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

An appearance in Playboy.

The Girls of HERO Issue?

Who'd do the art? Or would you cast real women?

 

This needs more thought! Form a commitee!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

An appearance in Playboy.

 

But that would limit her to only two dimensions.

[Hermit]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

An appearance in Playboy.

 

Actually, the CU does have a magazine showing lady supers in alluring poses (and various states of undress) called Uncaped

 

I forget if it's villainesses as well as heroines.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

But that would limit her to only two dimensions.

So make her blonde

[Dominique]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I'll wait for the video, "Villains Gone Wild".

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

One thing that has occurred to me is that while she can travel between dimensions, it's not clear that her subordinates can do so without her. While it would make her empire somewhat unworkable, it is quite possible that her presence is actually necessary to invade, or even scout, a target world.

 

It makes you wonder what her "empire" is actually like.

 

If she's the only dimensional transport mechanism available in it, she doesn't *have* an empire -- she has one hundred million separate vacation homes that she visits very rarely.

 

You can't really count yourself as any kind of political unit if you're split up all over creation and your transportation and communications infrastructure is exactly zero, except for the ruler's car. You are just a bunch of isolated petty fiefdoms that all owe nominal fealty to a mostly-absent suzerain.

 

And thusly Tyrannon, who *does* have D-transport infrastructure, should be eating her lunch wholesale. Which he ain't.

 

As to the D-Travel-Sensing question earlier... no, I am *not* "arguing from silence", I am arguing from the known fact that not even the great dimension lords like Tyrannon or Skarn, or the Emperor of the City of Man, or notables like the Archmage of a dimension, can sense every time half a dozen dimensional ninjas are busy warping in to do some discreet sneak-and-peek way the heck over there. Because if they *could*, then no scenario involving player characters using D-Travel would ever be anything but "You open a discreet D-Gate into an obscure back corner of Tyrannon's dimension. He senses your arrival anyway and teleports an army of minions to that spot. Post-Segment 12..."

 

Plus, of course, whoever raised the 'default mechanics' point -- why yes, default mechanics lets you buy Sense Dimensional Travel, Ranged, MegaScale. And it also lets the enemy buy Invisible Power Effect on their Dimensional Stealth Recon Ship. So again, your point is?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

So again' date=' your point is?[/quote']

 

The point is, and has been, that it's possible to explain V'Han's invasion behavior rationally if one cares too.

 

On the other hand, if someone actually prefers there to be no explanation, because that way they get to be smarmy, superior, and "right," then for them I suppose no explanation could possibly suffice.

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> The point is, and has been, that it's possible to explain V'Han's invasion

> behavior rationally if one cares too.

 

No, it's not. Really. So far, every attempted explanation has had to ignore either Champions source material or the most basic concepts of logistics and strategy, and ignore them in significant places.

 

> On the other hand, if someone actually prefers there to be no

> explanation, because that way they get to be smarmy, superior, and

> "right," then for them I suppose no explanation could possibly

> suffice.

 

Didn't take you long to get personal, now did it?

[MitchellS]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

I think the standard silver/bronze age concept of dimensional villains [which the CU adheres to] has very little to do with them sending in scouts or following logical military ideals about combat. Basically Dormammu decides he's going to attack, tries to open a gate for his forces, and is usually countered by Dr. Strange in some manner. It's pretty-much the same for Darkseid and all the other dimensional types in the comics. Logic and tactics have very little to do with silver/bronze age comics [but a lot to do with iron age ideologies].

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

think the standard silver/bronze age concept of dimensional villains [which the CU adheres to] has very little to do with them sending in scouts or following logical military ideals about combat. Basically Dormammu decides he's going to attack' date=' tries to open a gate for his forces, and is usually countered by Dr. Strange in some manner. It's pretty-much the same for Darkseid and all the other dimensional types in the comics.[/quote']

 

Absolutely true.

 

Logic and tactics have very little to do with silver/bronze age comics [but a lot to do with iron age ideologies].

 

I think even Iron Age would be more focused on in-the-trenches blood and sweat than strategic concerns. It's hard to be grim and gritty in the general's tent.

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

> I think the standard silver/bronze age concept of dimensional villains

> [which the CU adheres to] has very little to do with them sending in

> scouts or following logical military ideals about combat. Basically

> Dormammu decides he's going to attack, tries to open a gate for his

> forces, and is usually countered by Dr. Strange in some manner. It's

> pretty-much the same for Darkseid and all the other dimensional types

> in the comics.

 

Actually, no. Kang the Conqueror actually did follow basic military logic when attacking a dimension... his trips to the 20th century feel different because most of the time he's not really there to try conquering our world, he's just there to grudge-match with the Avengers. (The one time he *did* come to conquer Earth, he came in a frickin' Super Star Destroyer and just laid down orbital bombardment like the fist of an angry god.)

 

And Darkseid, in the comics, had some pretty durn good scouting of Earth -- Intergang were actually all Desaad's pawns, he had comprehensive files on all of Earth's superheroes, heck, it turned out that Lashina became "Duchess" and joined the Suicide Squad not 'cause she was defecting but because she was scoping out the lay of the land...

 

You have a point with Dormammu... problem is, V'Han is not supposed to be Dormammu's analogue, Tyrannon is. V'Han maps to a mixture of Majestrix Lilandra and Kang the Conqueror, neither of whom were particularly noted for being as autistic about strategy as Dormammu has been.

 

Edit -- also, the current CU really *isn't* Silver or Bronze... it's pretty much the Iron.

[Hermit]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

>

 

Edit -- also, the current CU really *isn't* Silver or Bronze... it's pretty much the Iron.

 

Not sure on that one, I think that depends a lot on which book. Though I admit at lot of the villains in CKC do seem to be Iron or at least rough Bronze, some other aspects of the CU seem more on the silver/bronze side of things.

[Chuckg]

Re: Which villain needs an overhaul?

 

If your villains are largely Iron, and your villainous organizations are clearly Iron, and the general laws and customs of the society are gettin' on the Iron (a *constitutionally upheld* Registration Act, anyone?), then really, it's pretty much Iron Age. The silver/bronze elements become individual exceptions to a general Iron tone (much like, oh, BIRDS OF PREY is the last optimistic holdout against the current depresso grimfest that is mainstream DC comics), and not the general all-around tone.

 

Heck, even some of the Ravenswood Academy kids have origin stories that ain't exactly silver or bronze, and then we start bringin' in Nova and Generation VIPER and Teen Dream... and that's the /teenaged/ supplement.