Psionic/Mental Combat

[ghost-angel]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Okay' date=' what do you mean by "specialized" here? All the maneuvers I have worked on can be used interchanibly in standard combat. One phase, you dodge the incoming gunfire, next Phase, you perform a Forceful Assault (like an Offensive Strike, only with a Mental Power) using Mental Illusions at your target, and later, you duck behind a wall and lob a grenade at someone else. Next Turn, you Sever (like Disarm) using Telepathy to break the Mind Control the other guy just put on your buddy. While some of the maneuvers are "all in the mind", the physical world never drops away and remains an active part of the combat.[/quote']

By Specialized I mean ... all that but .. if two Mentalists sit down and step into a duel and concentrate Just on mental combat with each other a slightly different set of rules/actions are applied, perhaps maneuvers that can only be performed in Full Mental Combat where you have two people at 0DCV in the real world.

 

An expanded set of rules perhaps.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Back in the days when we had a GM who ran it separately, we used...

EGO= Mental STR and DEX

INT= Inches mental movement.

(PRE/10)+1=Mental SPD

Bod and stun remained the same. If both were astral, then any maneuvers known could be used. If in the real world and just mind-fighting, then only resitance, etc. could be used.

Mental Powers were allowed to use the maneuvers if they were bought as Weapon Elements. (but only in the astral/mental plane.)

[Cancer]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

I would expect that for an all-out mentalist-versus-mentalist duel like that in the Charles Xavier scene, there could well be "spillover" that nearby non-mentalists would pick up, unless the mental powers being exerted had Invisible Power Effects. Things of that magnitude always have some splash-over. This could manifest (benignly) as bad dreams to those sleeping in nearby rooms, really wierd hallucinations for those in various states of intoxication, or just disorienting emotional waves for passersby. OTOH, it's possible that there would be side effects, the equivalent of what happens when two squads in a firefight exchange grenades and one grenade scatters into the basement where the local civilians are hiding. That clearly is a GM call, but it's something to consider if mentalist-mentalist duels are part of your regularly scheduled mayhem.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Interesting idea.. I would leave that in the hands of GM discretion and not build into the Powers, but it'd be cool to map out some similar consequences to a Mental Firefight that might appear in a Physical Firefight.

 

hmm... more to ponder.

[Adventus]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Don't forget using Mind Control to pull an opponent into MtM combat. This would represent you grabbing their psychic self and pulling it into the astral plane.

 

Professor X and Rachel Summers have both done this trick.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Okay, here is my list of Mental Martial Maneuvers. Sorry I didn't get back with them yesterday.

 

 
[font=Courier New]Maneuver            Phase  Cost  OECV  DECV  Damage/Effect
Attack on the Run     ½     5     -1    +0   Strike, FMove
Defensive Assault     ½     3     -1    +2   Strike
Offensive Assault     ½     5     -1    -1   Strike, +4 DC
Offensive Sever       ½     5     +2    -1   Breakout, +2 DC
Offensive Stun        ½     5     +2    -1   Strike, Target Falls
Quick Assault         ½     4     +1    +0   Strike, +2 DC
Sever                 ½     4     +0    -1   Breakout, +3 DC
Stun                  ½     4     +0    +0   Strike, Target Falls[/font]

 

The Target Falls doesn't mean the target actually falls and goes prone, but merely means the target is at 1/2 DCV and needs to spend a half phase to correct himself. A Breakfall roll won't prevent this, but an EGO Roll will.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

By Specialized I mean ... all that but .. if two Mentalists sit down and step into a duel and concentrate Just on mental combat with each other a slightly different set of rules/actions are applied, perhaps maneuvers that can only be performed in Full Mental Combat where you have two people at 0DCV in the real world.

 

An expanded set of rules perhaps.

 

Ah. Right now, I can't think of an appropriate trade off for being reduced to DCV. I'm thinking what a Mentalist can do if he makes himself completely vulnerable to physical attack has got to be good, or else he'd never try it. And by good, I mean useful and efficient rather than flashy and dramatic.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

As soon as my notes are cohesive, and I have actual time to dedicate to something like this (December, after NaNoWriMo) I'd like to put up what I've got on my website, mind if I steal your Martial Maneuver list Dust Raven?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

mind if I steal your Martial Maneuver list Dust Raven?

 

Go for it. Its not even in my official house rules anyway, just an option for if I every run a major psionics campaign. I'm still holding out for the Ultimate Mentalist in any case.

 

I'd love to see what you come up with in the end though. Let us know once you've got something.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

v.cool thanks. I'll be sure to remember and post stuff as I get it.

[ThatDarnCat]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

The 'speed of thought' comment brings up an interesting, to me, concept. How long does a mental combat take? If the action is taking place in the minds of the battling mentalists does the combat take place at the speed of thought and resolve itself in what might be a single phase of normal combat?

 

Imagine two groups entering combat, as the furst blows are exchanged the two opposing mentalists stand motionless for a moment, then one slumps to the grown unconcious and the physical combat resumes and plays itself out.

 

The mental dual took place, and was resolved, in that furst fleeting glance. Now the survivor can continue the conbat as usual, though with a few psychic bumps and bruises (stun inflicted in the psychic dual remains).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

The 'speed of thought' comment brings up an interesting, to me, concept. How long does a mental combat take? If the action is taking place in the minds of the battling mentalists does the combat take place at the speed of thought and resolve itself in what might be a single phase of normal combat?

 

Imagine two groups entering combat, as the furst blows are exchanged the two opposing mentalists stand motionless for a moment, then one slumps to the grown unconcious and the physical combat resumes and plays itself out.

 

The mental dual took place, and was resolved, in that furst fleeting glance. Now the survivor can continue the conbat as usual, though with a few psychic bumps and bruises (stun inflicted in the psychic dual remains).

For the sake of sanity and System Continuity I will be designing it around the Speed Chart the way Normal Combat is done.

[pinecone]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Cool manuevers...I've been thinkin of adding some more exclusive/non exclusive bases...Like "Insinuate" this is an exert base that can only conceal or deceive......so for the old D*D 'ers out there...

Id insinuation -2 OECV 0 DECV +4D6, only to deceive or conceal

This works by placing images or compulsions in a targets sub consious so the 4D6 are only rolled to say if using MC to make the target think it was his own idea, or to have no memory of what actions were taken (you know vs the +20 etc...)

 

Mind crush 0 OECV -1 DECV +4D6/2D6 (depends on the attack, ego attack is 1 per 2 DC...) Only to cause damage so you could use this to increase the damage a Mental illusion does by re-rolling the effect with the extre dice adding to the level of dammage it can do...Oh this is "MUst follow" so Telepathy/MIndcontrol or Telepathy?Mental illusion is a "OK" use or even Telepathy /Ego attack the must follow is chosen when the move is built...Those are both 4 points each...

[pinecone]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Astral double 0 OECV +2 DECV abort,throw (this disorients the attacker so much he has to take a half phase action, until he does he is at 1/2 DECV... 4 points that enough and now you can get a "black belt" in Psycho-Fu!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

A long time ago (pre-4th ed), I tried to work up a "Mental Hit Locations" chart. The idea started out as just a joke, but it could actually be useful. The only problem is, how do you break down the mind into locations?

 

Id-Ego-Superego

Persona-Self-Collective Unconscious

Parent-Adult-Child

Left Brain-Right Brain

Frontal-Prefrontal-Cerebellum-etc (all the brain parts and lobes)

Spine-Sensory nerves/organs

Memory short term/long term

Thought functions: Knowledge-Comprehension-Application-Analysis-Synthesis-Evaluation

 

Or all of the above. If you wanted to, you could have actual varied effects depending on what part of the mind is hit: Hit the superego and you momentarily lose your moral principles (Lose CVK, et al.). Hit the Adult and you become momentarily irrational (INT Drain). etc.

 

If the campaign is more mystical in flavor, such as for fantasy, the parts of the mind become parts of the soul or the spirit, or something. Use the "tree of life" structure or something similar (I don't remember how that goes off hand).

 

Then you can make called shots. What fun!

 

Anyone remember the short lived TV show "Herman's Head"? There's four parts of the mind right there.

[Foxx!]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Heroes!

 

What do you think about Spreading a mental attack, or making a Speading Power Advantage?

 

Cheers

[pinecone]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

I already allow that..it doesen't get used much because dropping a D6 per is murder...I supose the actual rule would be -1/2 D6...but I did not want it to be too easy, and I allow it to hit several Minds instead of hexes o I don't feel guilty...

 

I very seldom see a mentalist so it sure dosen't come up often though.....

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

A long time ago (pre-4th ed)' date=' I tried to work up a "Mental Hit Locations" chart. The idea started out as just a joke, but it could actually be useful. The only problem is, how do you break down the mind into locations?[/quote']

I would break it into large sections, with smaller 'vitals'... and I would base it on Roget's Classifications.

 

1. Abstract Relations

a. EXISTENCE

b. RELATION

c. QUANTITY

d. ORDER

e. TIME

f. CHANGE

g. CAUSATION

2. Space

3. Matter

4. Intellect

5. Volition

6. Affections

a. AFFECTIONS IN GENERAL

b. PERSONAL AFFECTIONS

c. SYMPATHETIC AFFECTIONS

d. RELIGIOUS AFFECTIONS

 

The ' vitals ' would be harder to target, but would have increased effect- as long as thhe effect was fitting- like using Mental Illusions to attack 6.d. on someone who was religious. The victim would feel the abandonment of God, or see an angel/demon rising against him. An Ego Attack on 1.e. could be creating the sensation that the heart was racing fast enough to cause a rupture. A Mental Illusion to 1.e. would ruin someone with Absolute Time Sense

To leave your foe a gibbering fool, you could attack 1 to destroy his sense of what is real, or attack 4 to destroy his comprehension, or attack 5 to break his will, or attack 6 to leave him emotionally incapable of responding.

You get the idea.

 

In this Method, Ego is little more thhan a combination of 4 5 6, while Id would be 1 2 3

[Sean Waters]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Heroes!

 

What do you think about Spreading a mental attack, or making a Speading Power Advantage?

 

Cheers

 

No problem I can see spreading an Ego Attack, but I wouldn't allow it for (say) Mind Control, in all likelihood, although I've never play tested that.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

The 'speed of thought' comment brings up an interesting, to me, concept. How long does a mental combat take? If the action is taking place in the minds of the battling mentalists does the combat take place at the speed of thought and resolve itself in what might be a single phase of normal combat?

 

Imagine two groups entering combat, as the furst blows are exchanged the two opposing mentalists stand motionless for a moment, then one slumps to the grown unconcious and the physical combat resumes and plays itself out.

 

The mental dual took place, and was resolved, in that furst fleeting glance. Now the survivor can continue the conbat as usual, though with a few psychic bumps and bruises (stun inflicted in the psychic dual remains).

 

While this would work great in a story, in a game there are two problems with it. The first is fairness in air time. For however long the mental combat takes to play out, only the mentalist get to play. Everyone else is forced to wait for the "real" fight to start. The Second problem is with the mentalist becoming the glory hog. Combat starts, and he takes out one guy at the start of every fight (and maybe even more if you'd allow it to happen more than once). This could be problematic, since he's likely taking out the other side's mentalist. And what if he loses?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Heroes!

 

What do you think about Spreading a mental attack, or making a Speading Power Advantage?

 

Cheers

 

Spreading Ego Attacks are already allowed by the rules, though any other (standard) Mental Power is not. Personally, I don't see any problem with it. so you want to shout into a crowd with your Telepathy. Fine, spread and reach all of them, but all you can do is talk (communicate) and not actually read thoughts (well, unless you had a LOT of dice to start with).

[OddHat]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Heroes!

 

What do you think about Spreading a mental attack, or making a Speading Power Advantage?

 

Cheers

 

I allow it with any mental power in Psionics heavy games. Makes an EC a much more reasonable deal for Psionic characters, and allows for intuitive structures like mental conference calls without requiring the player to pile on advantages at character creation. I also allow rapid fire and MPAs.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

I also allow rapid fire and MPAs.

 

I allow them as well, though I'm currently rethinking it. Currently the team mentalist can single shot KO just about any target with a tripple rapid fired Ego Attack, and even with the -4 to hit it's still fairly accurate. About the only balancing factor is the Full Phase action required and the reduction in DCV, and that's not much considering the effectiveness of the attack.

[Foxx!]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

Everyone!

 

Thank you for the comments.

 

Cheers!

[OddHat]

Re: Psionic/Mental Combat

 

I allow them as well' date=' though I'm currently rethinking it. Currently the team mentalist can single shot KO just about any target with a tripple rapid fired Ego Attack, and even with the -4 to hit it's still fairly accurate. About the only balancing factor is the Full Phase action required and the reduction in DCV, and that's not much considering the effectiveness of the attack.[/quote']

 

Yup, that's tricky. I'd maybe limit it to a two shot rapid fire in a campaign where it was turning out to be over powered. My games tend to be psionics heavy, making it less of an issue.