TK Pondering

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: TK Pondering

 

from this thread and the one on Succor, I think it is now obvious that 0 END should have a big ! in a yellow triangle.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Just FTR...

 

The official ruling does appear to be "Actually, you can't pick up two 100kg objects. You can pick up two 50kg objects. You can hit two people at full strength, or hold someone and then pummel someone else, but you lift 100kg with 10 STR. Period.".

[Sean Waters]

Re: TK Pondering

 

I am not sure that is right: being a constant power, I think you can activate it twice to lift double the amount you could lift with one application.

 

Say you can heft 400kg (20 STR TK) you can activate it and grab person 1, then next phase, maintain it AND grab person 2, using just the END for 20 STR TK. On the third phase, to grab person 3, on 4th you grab 4 - still just using END for one application of TK. On the fifth phase, to grab person 5, you'll need to maintain your TK, and start up a new one, thus using TWICE the END....and so on. Anyway, that is how I understand it, and with it activated twice, what you have is NOT a 40 STR TK, nor even a 25 STR TK - what you have is two 20 STR TKs, so if you grab someone then next phase, maintain this use and acticate another, and they try to break out, they roll str and you roll 4d6 twice and if their str breaks the TK hold of any grab they beat the BODY of - it does not in any way stack.

 

You could stack it, it would not be too much of a problem - yo'd need 4 lots to get to STR 30, and 8 to get to 35, and 16 to get to 30....the combat would be long done by then....I would rule you can only activate one new TK a phase - obviously as it requires an attack action.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: TK Pondering

 

I have had players abuse TK like this before, being able to pick up innumerable objects with successive uses (since the TK in question happened to be at 0 END; I didn't catch it until it was already in play). So for the sake of simplicity as well as to keep the power from being abused, my house rule is you have 15 STR TK, you can pick up 200 kg worth of stuff, either in a single object or ten 20 kg objects or whatever. The players cried, "Hey it is a constant power!" but let's face it, TK is different from other powers in a lot of respects (e.g. being inherently indirect), so this is just one more special rule about it, and a simplifying one at that.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

_____________________________________________________________

"The fiction in her family was that she was never nice.

I'd say she was very, I just did not see the price." - S. Vega

[Sean Waters]

Re: TK Pondering

 

I have had players abuse TK like this before, being able to pick up innumerable objects with successive uses (since the TK in question happened to be at 0 END; I didn't catch it until it was already in play). So for the sake of simplicity as well as to keep the power from being abused, my house rule is you have 15 STR TK, you can pick up 200 kg worth of stuff, either in a single object or ten 20 kg objects or whatever. The players cried, "Hey it is a constant power!" but let's face it, TK is different from other powers in a lot of respects (e.g. being inherently indirect), so this is just one more special rule about it, and a simplifying one at that.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

_____________________________________________________________

"The fiction in her family was that she was never nice.

I'd say she was very, I just did not see the price." - S. Vega

 

I think 0 END is the problem, not so much the multiple application of TK: I'd solve the problem by insisting that TK at 0 END can only be taken with the limit 'one application at a time' (-1/4). Frankly anything that differentiates TK from ranged strength is a good thing in my book.

[Dust Raven]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Just FTR...

 

The official ruling does appear to be "Actually, you can't pick up two 100kg objects. You can pick up two 50kg objects. You can hit two people at full strength, or hold someone and then pummel someone else, but you lift 100kg with 10 STR. Period.".

 

Seems that way, but to me it's a bit more complicated. From what I can gather in 5E and the FAQ (I don't have 5ER yet):

 

With 10 STR TK you can:

 

*Grab any number of 100 kg objects, one at a time, holding them simultaneously and even crush them, so long as you aren't actually lifting them.

*Lift/move any number of objects, one at a time, holding them simultaneously, so long as the total mass doesn't exceed 100 kg.

*Punch any target for 2d6 normal damage while doing any of the above.

*In all above cases, you pay the END cost per each use/target affected, per Phase.

 

This does eliminate the lift two 100 kg objects but not one 200 kg object paradox, but seems to short change TK in the Constant department. With a FW, you can apply it at full power in all respects with each simultaneous use without restriction (other than END cost), but with TK, only with some of its aspects. Of course, TK has many more aspects/functions than FW does. You might read it as saying that all of the aspects it has in common with other Constant Powers are done just like all Constant Powers, but those unique to TK (such as lifting) are handled uniquely (or rather, similarly to the other other lifting ability in the game, STR).

 

I'll have to ponder this to see if I feel it's a fair rule. I'm definately open to opinions on the matter of course.

[prestidigitator]

Re: TK Pondering

 

I just think of multiple uses of TK as being like using your Str with multiple limbs (well, except you only have to pay for full Str use once in a Phase, whereas TK could pile up a much larger cost). Can you lift more with two hands than one? No (aside from whatever common sense ruling the GM may make). So yes you can Grab two opponents at your full Str (for TK I would consider a full Grab to be with one, "limb," not two), but Grabbing one with multiple applications isn't going to do a lot aside from maybe a circumstantial bonus or two.

 

One nice benefit TK has a lot of the time is that the attacker doesn't suffer the usual DCV penalties normally imposed when you have someone Grabbed. Thus the attacker is a little more free to move, divert attention to other targets, doesn't have to worry about freeing up one of his/her finite number of limbs to Strike the target (and maybe suffer damage him-/herself if acting with a non-standard limb such as the head--I'm fond of imposing restrictions like that as GM), etc.

 

I think of multiple applications of TK as more like Spreading than Pushing. It might even make some sense to apply some kind of Spreading type restriction on it, like -5 Str to all applications per application above the first.

[Sean Waters]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Y'see I don't as TK has not reaction, it doesn't work like strength (so you should, for example, be able to pick yourself up...)

 

I would like TK to feel different to expensive ranged strength, and allowing multiple uses does that for me.

 

Moreover I don't really see how it is unbalancing to allow it, but there are, admittedly, times when I have tunnel vision....

[The Souljourner]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Y'see I don't as TK has not reaction' date=' it doesn't work like strength (so you should, for example, be able to pick yourself up...)[/quote']

 

You know what really bugs me? That you can't pick up something you're standing on. I guess that would be fine if you said that you have to move things in relation to yourself (which, btw, shouldn't be the general case, or if it is, there should be an adder that lets you get around it). But then they go ahead and say that if you grab on to a flying guy, you aren't dragged along behind. Ok... wait a minute...either things move in relation to me (and thus I move in relation to them), or not. You can't have it both ways.

 

I realize that they're trying not to tread on flight's toes... but there has to be a better way.

 

I would like TK to feel different to expensive ranged strength, and allowing multiple uses does that for me.

 

Moreover I don't really see how it is unbalancing to allow it, but there are, admittedly, times when I have tunnel vision....

 

I totally agree. And I'm trying to get Steve Long to answer the question in the rules questions forum. (we're on strike one so far)

 

-Nate

[Lucius]

We Got an Official Answer

 

Well, I just read Mr. Long's definitive answer, and it seems that, yes, you CAN pick up multiple objects that are each at the limit of your TeleKinetic STR.

 

That strikes me as problematic, but then, TeleKinesis has ALWAYS had certain problems. Someone just said "they don't want to step on Flight's toes" (now there's an image for you.....) and Mr. Waters said something about wanting TK to "feel different" than just ranged STRength...but notice, putting range on STR is expressly forbidden, on grounds that that "steps on the toes" of TeleKinesis, implying that they didn't think there would be much difference. If there IS a lot of difference, it should be allowed, because it wouldn't be doing the exact same thing.

 

(If you have ranged STR, doesn't that mean you can step on someone's toes from across the room?)

 

As far as I'm concerned, I think I'm just not going to have TK in the game. Characters in a game I run will either buy STR usable at range, or Flight, usable on other. I think TK is a kind of "fossil," something that's there because it was written in at the beginning, but that really ought to have been represented as an advantage on other powers - namely Flight, and/or STRength.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Then again, muses the palindromedary, maybe having STR be only 1 pt is another kind of "fossil" due to the fact that you want bricks to be able to buy lots of it......

[Dust Raven]

Re: TK Pondering

 

The problem with buying STR with Ranged is that you get all the baggage that some with STR, with none of the advantages that come with TK. For starters, you don't have any speperation from the strength of your body and the strength of your telekinesis. They would be identical. If you grabbed someone at range, your DCV would be halved eventhough there is no physical contact. You could not reach around obsticals with your ranged STR, nor could you punch or push things in any direction other than away from you. Your ranged STR would require physical motion of some kind, as it's just your normal STR used over there instead of over here.

 

But hey, instead of all that, you'll get all those nifty Figured Characteristics that have nothing to to with telekinesis.

 

So yeah, there's a significent difference, but an absurd one. Buying STR with Ranged just doesn't make logical sense. It only starts to make sense when STR is also bought with No Figured Characteristics and Indirect, two things that TK comes with by default.

[Dust Raven]

Re: We Got an Official Answer

 

Then again' date=' muses the palindromedary, maybe having STR be only 1 pt is another kind of "fossil" due to the fact that you want bricks to be able to buy lots of it......[/quote']

 

Not to pick on you directly Lucius, but just because something has been around for a while doesn't make it a fossil. Einstein's Theory of Relativity has been around for 100 years and it still quite popular (if not the definitive work in the field of physics) and Pythagorus's Theorum has been around for over two thousand years yet we still use it.

[Lucius]

We Got an Official Answer

 

Not to pick on you directly Lucius' date=' but just because something has been around for a while doesn't make it a fossil. Einstein's Theory of Relativity has been around for 100 years and it still quite popular (if not the definitive work in the field of physics) and Pythagorus's Theorum has been around for over two thousand years yet we still use it.[/quote']

 

I'm not saying it's a "fossil" just because it's "always been there." I'm using the word "fossil" to imply that the only reason it's still there is that it's always been there.

 

There's a ton of things that haven't changed from that very first Champions, and that's good. What isn't broken doesn't need fixing.

 

But there are things like the Comeliness score that you can point to and say, "You know, that's always been here, but do we really need it? Wouldn't it be better to reflect being really beautiful or ugly with something like Distinctive Features?"

 

Or things like Desolid that you can point to and say, "You know, that's always been there, but when you think about it, passing through things is really just Tunneling with No Normal Defense. And Invulnerability is really just Damage Reduction taken to the next step, 100%, just as No Normal Defense is Armor Piercing (ignore 50% of defenses) taken to the next step (ignore 100% of defenses) ....and lots of characters could logically have one or the other, not both."

 

 

True, just because an idea is old, doesn't mean it isn't good.

But just because an idea is old, doesn't mean it IS good either.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary dates back only to 1991 - but has antecedents in ancient Egypt

[schir1964]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Alternative Method

Ranged Strength (SFX)

 

Stretching - Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), Limited Body Parts (-1/4). Approximately 6 AP/4 Pts per Inch (x2 Non-Combat).

 

+5 Points for Multiple Simultaneous Uses (Extra Limbs)

 

Corrected To Make Intent Clear

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Actually, Ranged STR is a legal construct:

 

Stretching - Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), Limited Body Parts (-1/4). Approximately 6 AP/4 Pts per Inch (x2 Non-Combat).

 

+5 Points for Multiple Simultaneous Uses (Extra Limbs)

 

10" Ranged Strength

- One/Two Uses At A Time (60 AP/40 Pts)

- Multiple Simultaneous Uses (65 AP/45 Pts)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Twisting of words at best. The advantage Ranged (+1/2) cannot be applied to Strength. This is a similar but still seperate power that has some major disadvantages when compared to standard Telekinesis which include:

• A character using it will STILL be affected by Damage Shields (TK would not)
  
• It is costs an addtional 6 END above and beyond any END spent due to use of normal Strength
  
• Far more limited range than TK
  
• No guarantee that No Range Modifiers will apply GM Approval is already a requirement for that ability to be used with standard Stretching.

HM

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: TK Pondering

 

We all know that the ruling "No Ranged STR" refers directly to adding the Ranged advantage to a characters STR, because this is what both Telekinesis and Stretching were created to simulate.

[schir1964]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Twisting of words at best. The advantage Ranged (+1/2) cannot be applied to Strength.

I take exception to this. But I'll clarfiy in case that I didn't present my idea in the best manner. I was not talking about the Ranged Advantage in any part of my post. I was talking about the concept/SFX of Ranged Strength.

 

This is a similar but still seperate power that has some major disadvantages when compared to standard Telekinesis which include:

Okay, let's address these...

 

• A character using it will STILL be affected by Damage Shields (TK would not)

At the +1/4 Level you are correct, but at higher levels the GM must decide based on SFX. Steve Long hinted that the +1/4 level is very limited, but didn't expound on anything beyond the +1/4 version.

 

• It is costs an addtional 6 END above and beyond any END spent due to use of normal Strength.

Yes. So. I wasn't talking about costs or endurance, just an alternative to meet SFX. You can use this version to be grab a moving target and be dragged along, but with TK you can't. You should have included this in your comparison.

 

• Far more limited range than TK
  
• No guarantee that No Range Modifiers will apply GM Approval is already a requirement for that ability to be used with standard Stretching.

Yes. So. If the SFX requires it, then tack on the appropriate Advantages/Limitations.

 

You pointed out the current downsides for this method, but you didn't list any of the positives for actually using STR instead of TK.

 

Again, I was only offering an alternative to TK for Ranged Strength (SFX).

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: We Got an Official Answer

 

I'm not saying it's a "fossil" just because it's "always been there." I'm using the word "fossil" to imply that the only reason it's still there is that it's always been there.

 

There's a ton of things that haven't changed from that very first Champions, and that's good. What isn't broken doesn't need fixing.

I see your point. Personnally, I'm more suspect of changes rather than consistancy when a new edition of the rules is released.

 

But there are things like the Comeliness score that you can point to and say, "You know, that's always been here, but do we really need it? Wouldn't it be better to reflect being really beautiful or ugly with something like Distinctive Features?"

It's my belief the writers (or just Steve Long) asked himself this very question. I also believe he answered himself with "well, if made looking ugly a disad, what would we make looking good? A Perk or Talant? That seems weird. Either way, a character will either get points back from looking ugly and spend poing to look beautiful, and not spend any point to look average... might as well use the Characteristic that already does just that."

 

Or things like Desolid that you can point to and say, "You know, that's always been there, but when you think about it, passing through things is really just Tunneling with No Normal Defense. And Invulnerability is really just Damage Reduction taken to the next step, 100%, just as No Normal Defense is Armor Piercing (ignore 50% of defenses) taken to the next step (ignore 100% of defenses) ....and lots of characters could logically have one or the other, not both."

Maybe I'm weird, but I never thought of these things. If anything, I'd think of Tunnelling as an extremely limited form of Desol rather than the other way around. The others you state are just.... wacko (they either don't do what you've implied, or violate the metarules of the system).

 

 

True, just because an idea is old, doesn't mean it isn't good.

But just because an idea is old, doesn't mean it IS good either.

 

I'll definately agree here, at least generally speaking. There are a lot of rules in the Hero System that are said to be around simply because there were with the 1st edition and it's tradition or something like that. I'd have to disagree, mainly because I never played 1st edition. I started with 4th and didn't see anything that seemed so far off base it had to be wrong. There were some kinks to the system, certainly, but all of those were in additions or changes to the rules since 1st edition. The other reason is I believe the writers of each edition do look at everything to evaluate it and determind what stays, what goes, and what gets changed, and don't base their decisions on feelings of tradition or nostalgia.