TK Pondering

[Dust Raven]

I was thinking about some weird uses of Powers and comething caught my attention about TK.

 

TK is a constant Power. Constant Powers can be activated more than once, i.e. I can use my 10 STR TK to lift Bob (100 kg), and while Bob is being held, I can use my TK to lift Larry (also 100 kg), paying END for both uses of TK. All well and good, yes? I'm using my 10 STR TK to lift 200 kg of mass, and all I have to do is spend twice as much END and take an extra Phase to accomplish the task. So what if I want to lift Big Joe (200 kg)? Can I just spend and extra Phase and spend more END to lift him, even though I only have a 10 STR TK?

 

The obvious answer is "no, it's specifically against the rules." So I suppose what my real question would be is to ask why is it against the rules?

 

I've come up with something other than the usual drivel about game balance and fairness. When lifting two seperate objects, you must control them independantly, using an action to do so. So in the above example, while holding Bob and Larry, I can throw or crush Bob (and just Bob) or Larry (and just Larry), but not both at the same time. So, if I were to try to lift Big Joe, I couldn't manage to actually move him, as I could only affect half his mass at any given time. Crushing might seem easier, but I could simply smack him with a TK punch.

 

Anyone have additional thoughts on this?

[ghost-angel]

Re: TK Pondering

 

That's pretty much how I assumed it worked, you could only affect X Mass of any one object; X being determined by your TK STR.

 

You can only use TK once on any given object. I mean, once you've already TK'd it (is TK a verb? is now...) you can't TK is again, it's like trying to grab something twice - not possible.

[Zed-F]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Why don't you just Haymaker your TK if you want to lift more?

[Dust Raven]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Why don't you just Haymaker your TK if you want to lift more?

 

That's an interesting idea. I've never thought of applying Haymaker to actions that don't involve rolling for an effect. After all, it adds Damage Classes, not Active Points. I suppose it's possible.

 

There is always Pushing too...

 

In any case, it's not a matter of lifting more, it's a matter of what you're lifting. With the same TK, you can lift two (or more) 100 kg objects, but can't life any single 101+ kg objects (without pushing or using spiffy maneuvers).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TK Pondering

 

I think the existing Push mechanic is the best way to treat this.

 

Normal STR is also considered a constant ability and if a character uses one arm to lift someone off the ground by their neck they still have another free arm to affect another target. That said, they are probably NOT lifting the maximum limit of their STR with each arm as the description in the rules imply that to do so requires maximum effort which sounds like a requirement to use both hands on one target to me. Allowing TK STR to have as many virtual-extra-limbs as a character is willing to spend END on should really be treated as an equivalent to the character using his Normal STR with the Push mechanic spending x2 (or more) the normal amount of END to lift a target that is above his normal lifting limit.

 

HM

[Bloodstone]

Re: TK Pondering

 

I was thinking about some weird uses of Powers and comething caught my attention about TK.

 

TK is a constant Power. Constant Powers can be activated more than once, i.e. I can use my 10 STR TK to lift Bob (100 kg), and while Bob is being held, I can use my TK to lift Larry (also 100 kg), paying END for both uses of TK. All well and good, yes?

 

That's where I stop and wonder: is it all well and good? TK works like normal STR in most ways, though it's strength that is ranged and indirect.

 

So, would you allows someone with 10 STR to lift 200 KG so long as they are willing to pay the extra end cost and no one target weighs more then 100kg?

 

Essentialy, that's giving them 15 STR for "free" and I don't think anyone would do that. 100 KG is the general limit of a 10 STR characters lifting capacity and I see no reason why TK STR should work differently.

 

If you have 60 STR TK you can lift anything up to 100 tons for the cost of one action and some END. If you lift a 50 ton target with one action, you can use TK again on another target without having to drop the first one. But, since your lifiting capacity 100 tons, that second object needs to weight 50 tons or less.

 

That's how I always figured it worked at least...

[Dust Raven]

Re: TK Pondering

 

So, would you allows someone with 10 STR to lift 200 KG so long as they are willing to pay the extra end cost and no one target weighs more then 100kg?

 

Essentialy, that's giving them 15 STR for "free" and I don't think anyone would do that. 100 KG is the general limit of a 10 STR characters lifting capacity and I see no reason why TK STR should work differently.

The thing is, TK and STR do work differently, especially in this respect. It's one of the reasons the cost of STR is appropriate in comparison (though let's not dig too deep into the cost of STR here, that's not the intent of this thread). The lift-as-many-as-you-can-spend-END option of TK balances things (as does several other factors, such as TK's inherent indirectness).

 

If you have 60 STR TK you can lift anything up to 100 tons for the cost of one action and some END. If you lift a 50 ton target with one action, you can use TK again on another target without having to drop the first one. But, since your lifiting capacity 100 tons, that second object needs to weight 50 tons or less.

 

That's how I always figured it worked at least...

It's how I figured it worked as well, untill 5th edition spelled it out in no uncertain terms for me. I had to go and completely rewrite a house rule I had concerning this (actually, I ended up completely ditching as it is now totally obsolete).

 

And what's up with me and all these parenthetical statements? It's like a weird compulsion or something (perhaps a Psych Limit?).

[Dust Raven]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Okay, hows this for a mind f-f-f-f...arce. Yeah, mind farce.

 

With 10 STR TK, you can pick up two 100 kg objects, but not one 200 kg objects (without Pushing).

 

With FW, you can errect a FW in front of you, and then another FW in front of that (no bubbles here, just a straight wall). I'm not sure if there is a correlation here, but with the FW, you're almost getting double defense (at least once).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: TK Pondering

 

The thing is' date=' TK and STR [i']do[/i] work differently, especially in this respect. It's one of the reasons the cost of STR is appropriate in comparison (though let's not dig too deep into the cost of STR here, that's not the intent of this thread). The lift-as-many-as-you-can-spend-END option of TK balances things (as does several other factors, such as TK's inherent indirectness).

 

+10 STR = 10 points

 

Indirect (+3/4), Ranged (+1/2) makes that 22.5 active points

 

No Figured (-1/2) reduces this to 15 real points

 

Which is the cost and effect of 10 STR telekinesis.

 

Adding more advantages over STR would mean TK is underpriced, if one assumes all of the cost components are appropriately priced.

[schir1964]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Another comparison:

 

Telekinesis: Strength - Ranged, each continuous use (for grab/throw only) costs END.

 

Strength + Extra Limbs (Infinite Number): Strength, No Range, each continuous use (for grab/thow only) costs END.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: TK Pondering

 

 

 

If you have 60 STR TK you can lift anything up to 100 tons for the cost of one action and some END. If you lift a 50 ton target with one action, you can use TK again on another target without having to drop the first one. But, since your lifiting capacity 100 tons, that second object needs to weight 50 tons or less.

 

...

 

 

This is exactly how I would handle this situation, irregardless of what it says in FREd or ReFREd. The maximum amount of weight/mass you can manipulate with TK is based on its STR. Even if one is manipulating multiple objects, their total combined weight cannot exceed your TK STR maximum lift. (if so then you must Push)

 

Now if you want to be able to lift multiple objects that each weigh as much as your TK's maximum STR can handle, thats what Area of Effect is good for...

[Bloodstone]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Actually, Area of Effect is still limited by the TK's STR value AFAIK.

 

AOE simply lets you affect multiple targets in the designated are with a single use of the power.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Actually, Area of Effect is still limited by the TK's STR value AFAIK.

 

AOE simply lets you affect multiple targets in the designated are with a single use of the power.

 

It shouldn't be limited.

 

You paid double the cost to use TK in an area of effect. I'd say thats more than enough to allow TK to exert its full STR against any and all targets in the AoE. You get to use all the dice in an AE Entangle. You get to use all the dice in an AE Energy Blast. Why then, do you not get to use all the STR in an AE TK?

[schir1964]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Actually, Area of Effect is still limited by the TK's STR value AFAIK.

 

AOE simply lets you affect multiple targets in the designated are with a single use of the power.

 

For clarfication here are some related FAQs by Steve Long:

 

Question: Can a character Grab multiple people with Telekinesis in successive Phases — one person in his first Phase, a second in his next Phase, a third in his next Phase, and so on — or is he limited to Grabbing as many people as he has limbs?

 

Answer: He can Grab successive targets in the manner you describe; his number of limbs has no bearing on how he uses his Telekinesis to Grab people. But he has to pay END for each separate use, of course.

 

Question: If a character has Area Of Effect Telekinesis and uses it to Grab someone, and the victim breaks free, does the victim get “re-Grabbed†in every hex as he tries to leave the affected area?

 

Answer: No. Once the victim breaks loose, he’s free to exit the affected area without hindrance. If he doesn’t do so before the attacker’s next Phase, then the attacker can Grab him again per the standard rules on Constant area-affecting powers.

 

Question: If a character has Area Of Effect Telekinesis, does the amount he can lift apply per hex or over the overall area?

 

Answer: Generally speaking, you should apply the STR over the overall area. For example, if a character with Telekinesis (60 STR) tries to telekinetically scoop up a bunch of sand, the weight of sand he picks up depends on his telekinetic STR — he picks up 100 tons of sand, not 100 tons per hex — and the sand presumably comes more-or-less equally from all the affected hexes. If appropriate, the GM might allow more of per-hex application, but that should be the rare exception rather than the rule.

 

Question: If a character has Area Of Effect Telekinesis, and he Grabs or “punches†multiple persons, how much STR can he apply against each target? Is there a limit to how many targets the character could affect this way?

 

Answer: The full STR of his Telekinesis. The only limit is the number of targets that can fit in the affected area, though if the character tries to lift all those targets, the GM may wish to apply the rule above about the lifting capacity of Area Of Effect Telekinesis.

 

Question: Does a character have to perform a Grab with Telekinesis before using it to move a person? Does the answer differ if he wants to move an object?

 

Answer: Object or person, a telekinetic has to make an Attack Roll to hit the object, meaning pick it up/Grab it, before he can move it.

Please note that there is no limit (beyond space limit) to the number of Grabs/Punches using Full Strength with Area Effect. However, when lifting things off the ground, then there is a "STR Limit" per se concerning "Weight".

 

Just Some Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: TK Pondering

 

For clarfication here are some related FAQs by Steve Long:

 

 

Please note that there is no limit (beyond space limit) to the number of Grabs/Punches using Full Strength with Area Effect. However, when lifting things off the ground, then there is a "STR Limit" per se concerning "Weight".

 

Just Some Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Promptly ignored.

[Lucius]

Re: TK Pondering

 

To me, that exposition FAQ seems to imply that while yes, you can grab many many targets with Telekinesis (at the cost of much ENDurance) you can only ever LIFT as much weight as the Str of the the TK allows. That would resolve the initial question.

 

Now, that business of Force Wall stacking....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck had STR 10 Telekinesis....

[The Souljourner]

Re: TK Pondering

 

To me' date=' that exposition FAQ seems to imply that while yes, you can grab many many targets with Telekinesis (at the cost of much ENDurance) you can only ever LIFT as much weight as the Str of the the TK allows. That would resolve the initial question.[/quote']

 

I don't know that it does answer the question. That's still just one instance of the power working over an area.

 

Would you say that someone who had a continuous EB couldn't use it on one person and then use it on someone else while the first one was still going? By the rules, you can, and TK works the same way.

 

It is specifically not strength with range, it's different, and this is one of the ways it is different.

 

[edit] oops, forgot the original question was about stacking, not using it multiple times on multiple targets. It does seem that you shouldn't be able to pick up more than your max strength, though you could pick up two things equal to your max strength. Personally, I think I would allow it, but that's not strictly by the rules.

 

-Nate

[Sean Waters]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Not something I've ever really thought about BUT, at least in principle, I would not object to someone with 10 STR TK getting hold of Big Bob with 10 STR TK on the first phase, then using another 10 STR TK on the second and actually getting him off the ground. OK this means that you can eventually lift ANY object with 10STR TK - but there are serious limits:

 

1. Breakout would all be against 10 STR x however many grabs you made - it doesn't become one bigger TK.

 

2. You have to maintain and pay END for each use of TK.

 

So, (interesting idea, BTW) I would say that TK is not simply ranged strength, and that you can use it multiple times to effect one big object. I would say that, as grabbing or squeezing is an attack you can only do that once per phase (and in the above example either at STR 10 or STR 10 x number of grabs if the GM allows a multi power attack - each one applies to defences seperately) but you can maintain as many grabs as you like.

[ghost-angel]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Not something I've ever really thought about BUT, at least in principle, I would not object to someone with 10 STR TK getting hold of Big Bob with 10 STR TK on the first phase, then using another 10 STR TK on the second and actually getting him off the ground. OK this means that you can eventually lift ANY object with 10STR TK - but there are serious limits:

 

1. Breakout would all be against 10 STR x however many grabs you made - it doesn't become one bigger TK.

 

2. You have to maintain and pay END for each use of TK.

 

So, (interesting idea, BTW) I would say that TK is not simply ranged strength, and that you can use it multiple times to effect one big object. I would say that, as grabbing or squeezing is an attack you can only do that once per phase (and in the above example either at STR 10 or STR 10 x number of grabs if the GM allows a multi power attack - each one applies to defences seperately) but you can maintain as many grabs as you like.

See I would go the other way, the STR of your TK is the maximum Per Object Lift you cuold get, but you could activate as many instances of TK as you needed - i.e. 10 STR TK could lift as many 100kg Object as you have END to maintain the TKs. But each object could only be affected by a single TK once.

 

Either way, we agree that TK is not merely Ranged STR and multiple instances of a TK Power are possible.

[Sean Waters]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Of course you could lift Big Bob with one telekinetic hand, and his trousers with another....OK, that is cheating, they are functionally one object, but it doesn't make any sense to me to be able to lift (say) a 100kg suit of armour and a 100 kg human with two applications of TK, if they were seperate, but be unable to lift them if the human was wearing the armour...

 

Multiple TK uses are defintiely possible (which is why you need to watch the 0 END merchants....) in my book. Admittedly in crayon....

[Sean Waters]

Re: TK Pondering

 

To me, that exposition FAQ seems to imply that while yes, you can grab many many targets with Telekinesis (at the cost of much ENDurance) you can only ever LIFT as much weight as the Str of the the TK allows. That would resolve the initial question.

 

Now, that business of Force Wall stacking....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck had STR 10 Telekinesis....

 

Does anyone remember, way, way back, before CyberGames, a little 'competition' post: how to survive a nuclear blast on under 20 active points, or somesuch? That would be in 4th edition and involved (although there were many inventive solutions) a small force wall and a big autofire. It was not long after that thread before the clarifications started coming in.

 

Not being able to stack force walls makes absolutely no logical sense, but perfect sense for the purposes of game balance. I don't think that TK quite falls into the same area (frankly, so long as you don't let anyone autofire their FW, and watch the 0 ENDers, I don't really see a problem with FW stacking).

 

I mean, I can pick up 100kg of sand with one use of TK and 3x 100kg of sand with 3 seperate uses: what can I pick up with a three shot TK autofire.....so long as it is not communicable....hey, there's a thought, while we are synergising....perhaps you should be able to buy fine manipulation for your force walls too....

 

In answer to the woodchuck question, 100kg per phase, subject to successful grab rolls, and a sufficiency of END. Quite an impressive woodchuck, really.

 

I wonder, given that I'm not the pheasant plucker, but the pheasant plucker's mate, and I'm only plucking pheasants because the pheasant plucker's late, how many pheasants I could pluck with a 10str TK and fine manipulation...

[The Souljourner]

Re: TK Pondering

 

See I would go the other way' date=' the STR of your TK is the maximum Per Object Lift you cuold get, but you could activate as many instances of TK as you needed - i.e. 10 STR TK could lift as many 100kg Object as you have END to maintain the TKs. But each object could only be affected by a single TK once.[/quote']

 

Well, how about this - you have two 100kg steel balls connected by a (weightless) chain. Could you lift one off the ground and then the other (using two activations of tk)? What if the chain was instead a steel bar?

 

What defines a single "object"?

 

Given that you can affect an object with other constant powers more than once (I set you on fire, I set you on fire some more), I think it should work. In the constant EB case, the damage is applied to your defenses separately, but the end result (damage) does stack. I see TK being the same thing - each instance only lifts 100kg upward, but the end result is that 200kg gets pushed upward.

 

I don't think it's abusive, since the end cost skyrockets the more you do it - 1x + 2x + 3x + 4x etc. Also, since lifting capacity is non-linear, 4 instances of 10 STR TK can actually lift a lot less than one instance of 40 strength, but they both use the same end cost.

 

-Nate

[ghost-angel]

Re: TK Pondering

 

a good point is raised in the last paragraph, multiple applications to the same object should stack like Normal STR for lifting.

 

As to the ball and chain question - I'd leave that up to the GM and dramatic sense.

[The Souljourner]

Re: TK Pondering

 

a good point is raised in the last paragraph' date=' multiple applications to the same object should stack like Normal STR for lifting.[/quote']

 

I actually like that it doesn't work that way. If one application can pick up 100kg, two applications should only be able to pick up 200kg, not 400 (or whatever 20 strength can pick up... something like that). Plus it limits people with small TK from routinely abusing this stacking rule, since it's far more efficient to just have bigger TK.

 

I liked that someone pointed out 0 END TK as a possible abuse... I actually have that on a character I'm playing right now.... he put 18 STR of TK at 0 END so he could carry around other party members and ammunition easily (he likes to hurl 300kg depleted uranium cannon balls around). I think that the power is fine as long as the player doesn't abuse it. Sure, I could carry around innumerable large objects and drop them on people at my whim, but I don't, because I know it would be abusive.

 

-Nate

[ghost-angel]

Re: TK Pondering

 

Oh! Linear progression .. yeah I can see that. I don't think I'd allow it if I were a GM, but I can see it. Makes sense.