Freezing the Time

[prestidigitator]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

I handle this by adding in a Suppress INT' date=' and ruling that a character with -30 INT can't think or perceive. Only costs an additional +1/2 to the Supress SPD.[/quote']

That sounds like a reasonable approach too.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

For example' date=' other characters can technically still Abort to defensive actions, observe things in real time, and perform Free Actions such as performing Presence Attacks and making soliloquies. To avoid (most of) this, it would probably be best to link in some Darkness (for at least the Sight and Hearing Groups) with [i']Personal Immunity[/i] and maybe even a Suppress/Drain on Movement Powers.

There are senses all of us have that aren't explicitly spelled out in the Senses section of the rulebook -- things like sense of balance, sense of temperature, and also...sense of time (passing). If you want to get really funky, do a Darkness vs. Sense of Time Passing, Personal Immunity. People and things aren't actually frozen in time, but since they aren't aware of the passage of time, they won't be taking any actions themselves, either...not even aborts, etc.

 

 

 

(Note: no way would I allow that in a game of mine; I'm just tossing it out there for the heck of it. )

[prestidigitator]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

There are senses all of us have that aren't explicitly spelled out in the Senses section of the rulebook -- things like sense of balance' date=' sense of temperature, and also...sense of time (passing). If you want to get [i']really[/i] funky, do a Darkness vs. Sense of Time Passing, Personal Immunity. People and things aren't actually frozen in time, but since they aren't aware of the passage of time, they won't be taking any actions themselves, either...not even aborts, etc.

 

 

 

(Note: no way would I allow that in a game of mine; I'm just tossing it out there for the heck of it. )

Yeah. Oddhat's Int Suppress probably does a better job of covering it than trying to prevent every Sense imaginable.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

I know I poo-pooed EDM but I've thought of a way I MIGHT allow it:

 

EDM: UAA: through time (to the future)

 

Target is hit and moved through time to the future, sfx being they are frozen where they are until the future gets there

 

I'd rule that until they finish getting there they can not be effected by the present - they are not in our time, even though we can see them. Of course you can move stuff around them....you could not harm them until they finished the journey, but there is nothing to stop you setting up an attack (or several attacks, potentially) to effect them when they 'arrive'.

[Kirby]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

Well not according to the rules: A character with EDM can travel from one dimension to another. That's a quote.

Well, according to UNITL Superpowers Database (an official book) you can. "The character can stop time, 'freezing' everyone and everything in place (even 'stopping' energy such as gravity or fire)." That's a quote. And it's in quotations. As for dimensions, many have stated/theorized (and I believe Einstein was one) that time is a dimension (4th?), thus you can go to that point via EDM, just like USD shows as well as the method for travelling foreward and backward in time.

[Kirby]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

Of course you can move stuff around them....you could not harm them until they finished the journey' date=' but there is nothing to stop you setting up an attack (or several attacks, potentially) to effect them when they 'arrive'.[/quote']

Now that sounds abusive.

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

As for dimensions' date=' many have stated/theorized (and I believe Einstein was one) that [b']time[/b] is a dimension (4th?), thus you can go to that point via EDM, just like USD shows as well as the method for travelling foreward and backward in time.

Einstein proposed Time as the fourth Dimension based on the idea that if you travel far enough in one direction in the universe you arrive back where you started.

 

Time is, at best, a poor analogy for that concept. Though the concept itself it sound enough.

 

The idea of the 4TH Dimension being either Time or another Spacial Dimension is still debated by scientists and nothing is definite. Mostly because we can't perceive into 4D at all.

[Kirby]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

If you can theorize it in science, you can factualize it in the comics genre.

 

 

And you can quote me on that.

 

As for 4-D, there is something with sonograms where the machine takes a 4-D picture; however, we haven't had one done yet, so I don't know if they're trying to truly say it's a 4th dimension (it may be 3 dimensional with sound, I dunno). And while it's not related to freezing time, I could rubber science it in some way, I bet.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

If you can theorize it in science' date=' you can factualize it in the comics genre.[/quote']

Ok, this I can go with.

 

Once you step into the realm of Fiction anything and everything goes. That's the fun of fiction.

 

I personally put Time at the 0th Dimension is Time is in all things, has 1 Direction and is no spacial. But that's me, I don't believe it's possible to move backwards in time. I would allow for momentary stops in Time however - thus allowing EDM: Time Stopped Dimension.

 

The SFX would be Time Is Relative, for you (the EDMer) everything it moving so slow it might as well be stopped, the them (the "stopped") you're moving to fast you're no longer sufficiently perceivable.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

Ah' date=' the [b']K[/b]eep It Simple Stupid, plan.

 

Nothing to do with the thread, or for that matter directed at you, Kirby, but the 'KISS' acronym always makes my toes curl. It strikes me that the best way to set someone strongly against whatever advice you give is to combine that advice with a personal insult, and a poorly conceived one at that, simply there to make the acronym work. It would be an excellent way to try and bluff someone into doing the opposite of whatever you advocate though.

 

Perhaps this is why my solutions tend towards the Heath Robinson: I've been told to kiss off once too often:ugly:

[Sean Waters]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

Now that sounds abusive.

 

 

Well as abusive as most UAA movement powers, hence the STOP sign, and less abusive than some interpretations of the timestop power because at least the target can not be affected until he arrives, at which point he is free to act: dodge, dive for cover, or whatever: he is not going to get to the future and find he has already been eviscerated. Moreover it stops the sort of silly 'I TP him 5 minutes into the future and spend the time piling up solid objects where he is going to re-appear' mularkey.

 

As for time being a dimension, well, fine, and travel in time is fine as per the EDM rules, and consistent with them: what EDM does not allow is timestop*: that is not movement in time, it is targetting time and entangling it. In fact I am suggesting (although not advocating) time travel as a solution to the problem presented.

 

As for the USPD, an official publication it may be, but using EDM in this way is irresponsible, much like suggesting it can be used to simulate wish fulfillment. I mean, you might as well have picked energy blast, made it transtemporal and knocked time out that way (what is time's CON, do you think?), if we are just making stuff up. EDM is the carpet under which an awful lot of dirt is swept: please don't encourage this kind of behaviour. This is my problem with some examples of sfx: some players expect that a cunning sfx will change the way the power works - it does not (except in very minor and incidental ways, and for triggering disads etc). You have to start with the power you have built. You can decorate it however you like, but bear in mind that 'go-faster' stripes never actually made a car go faster.

[Mister E]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

Well as abusive as most UAA movement powers, hence the STOP sign, and less abusive than some interpretations of the timestop power because at least the target can not be affected until he arrives, at which point he is free to act: dodge, dive for cover, or whatever: he is not going to get to the future and find he has already been eviscerated. Moreover it stops the sort of silly 'I TP him 5 minutes into the future and spend the time piling up solid objects where he is going to re-appear' mularkey.

 

As for time being a dimension, well, fine, and travel in time is fine as per the EDM rules, and consistent with them: what EDM does not allow is timestop*: that is not movement in time, it is targetting time and entangling it. In fact I am suggesting (although not advocating) time travel as a solution to the problem presented.

 

As for the USPD, an official publication it may be, but using EDM in this way is irresponsible, much like suggesting it can be used to simulate wish fulfillment. I mean, you might as well have picked energy blast, made it transtemporal and knocked time out that way (what is time's CON, do you think?), if we are just making stuff up. EDM is the carpet under which an awful lot of dirt is swept: please don't encourage this kind of behaviour. This is my problem with some examples of sfx: some players expect that a cunning sfx will change the way the power works - it does not (except in very minor and incidental ways, and for triggering disads etc). You have to start with the power you have built. You can decorate it however you like, but bear in mind that 'go-faster' stripes never actually made a car go faster.

i think building a Time Stop Multipower, and backing it up with Power Skill, is a great idea, because it forces the Player and GM to annylize what it means to stop time within a particular campaign setting. Otherwise, I prefer the idea of using XDM, with the addition that the GM must do the extensive work of detailing the dynamic elements of the time stopped dimension, as how they playout in game, mechanics-wise.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

A Player of mine asked for the Power to freeze the time so he could act.

 

 

Hi Johannes: As with everything in Hero there are several ways to do the same thing. One way to mimic this is with a special effect of Teleportation and some linked Overall Levels. Here is how it works in practice. The PC freezes time (aka Teleports). He walks over to where he wants time to unfreeze (i.e. counts off his Teleport inches...note the limiation on Teleport...must be able to move to target location). Aims for the neck of his target and hits him from behind (i.e. applies his levels to extra damage or hit locations) and emerges. You can use the same trick for lock picking a door, working on a computer, etc. It is not overbalancing and does the trick in a lot of cases.

[Kirby]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

As for the USPD' date=' an official publication it may be, but using EDM in this way is irresponsible, much like suggesting it can be used to simulate wish fulfillment. I mean, you might as well have picked energy blast, made it transtemporal and knocked time out that way (what is time's CON, do you think?), if we are just making stuff up.[/quote']

Now you're just being immature. Initially you stated it shouldn't be possible for multiple reason. Then when those reasons were countered and sound explanations given, you change stance. Your complaint "using EDM in this way is irresponsible" is unfounded. I've stated reasonable means of how to use it. Simply because you don't like it doesn't mean it goes against life and is irresponsible (IIRC, that's your catch-all response when examples don't go your way of thinking). Your example of wish fulfillment is completely fabricated; most likely because you have no basis for a logical argument. As for your last point, we aren't making stuff up, you are.

[Kirby]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

It strikes me that the best way to set someone strongly against whatever advice you give is to combine that advice with a personal insult' date=' and a poorly conceived one at that, simply there to make the acronym work.[/quote']

That's a very unique interpretation. The KISS acronym is not an insult, but part of jargon, especially military where it's applied in "Let's make this a KISS Operation." As in, don't overcomplicate things. Until your post, I've never heard of it being used (or interpreted) as an insult.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

That's a very unique interpretation. The KISS acronym is not an insult' date=' but part of jargon, especially military where it's applied in "Let's make this a KISS Operation." As in, don't overcomplicate things. Until your post, I've never heard of it being used (or interpreted) as an insult. [/quote']

 

"Stupid"?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

Now you're just being immature. Initially you stated it shouldn't be possible for multiple reason. Then when those reasons were countered and sound explanations given' date=' you change stance. Your complaint "using EDM in this way is irresponsible" is unfounded. I've stated reasonable means of how to use it. Simply because you don't like it doesn't mean it goes against life and is irresponsible (IIRC, that's your catch-all response when examples don't go your way of thinking). Your example of wish fulfillment is completely fabricated; most likely because you have no basis for a logical argument. As for your last point, [b']we[/b] aren't making stuff up, you are.

 

 

The wish fulfillment use if stated on p 173 of 5ER. You might like to read that.

 

As for the rest of your diatribe it seems little more than personal abuse, which I'm not going to rise to, being immature and all.

[Kirby]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

"Stupid"?

Since the KISS acronym is generally used when referring to yourself or a group, it's more self-depracating than an insult. It's even in the dictionary. And KIS isn't a word, so something needed to be added. Another one would be: Proper Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance. If you find that insulting, you just need to grow some thicker skin.

 

As I don't have 5ER, I can't look up that. And since you think my "diatribe" is abusive (?) when I point out holes in your argument, I guess this ends this. And since it's not related to the topic, that's fine by me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

Since the KISS acronym is generally used when referring to yourself or a group, it's more self-depracating than an insult. It's even in the dictionary. And KIS isn't a word, so something needed to be added. Another one would be: Proper Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance. If you find that insulting, you just need to grow some thicker skin.

 

As I don't have 5ER, I can't look up that. And since you think my "diatribe" is abusive (?) when I point out holes in your argument, I guess this ends this. And since it's not related to the topic, that's fine by me.

 

I'm not quite sure how we got to DefCon 2 but I'm happy to let it drop.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

Einstein proposed Time as the fourth Dimension based on the idea that if you travel far enough in one direction in the universe you arrive back where you started.

 

Time is, at best, a poor analogy for that concept. Though the concept itself it sound enough.

 

The idea of the 4TH Dimension being either Time or another Spacial Dimension is still debated by scientists and nothing is definite. Mostly because we can't perceive into 4D at all.

Einstein treated time as a fourth dimension based upon the invariance of the speed of light, and differences in velocity appearing mathematically similar to rotations in space: pure spatial rotations maintain the physical distance between two points (x^2 + y^2 + z^2 is a constant); space-time, "rotations," seem to preserve a similar interval (x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - [ct]^2 is a constant). This fis the core of Special Relativity, and the, "dimension," of time is similarly treated homogeniously with respect to spatial dimensions in General Relativity, seemingly without contradiction.

 

After such mathematical observations it is fun and easy to imagine such things as moving backwards in time, particles with, "imaginary mass," and wormholes, but at that point it is completely conjectural; I don't believe the man ever claimed they were certain conclusions or based upon physical evidence.

[zornwil]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

Sean, "KISS" really is "just a phrase." Maybe you don't have it in the UK. But in the US it is entirely innocuous.

 

As to the on-topic, I am with Sean on this. EDM is a mechanic that is explicitly about moving to another dimension, not remaining in this one. It's simply a bad ruling, in the way the mechanic is bent (i.e., BROKEN), to declare it can be used in the manner being advocated on occassion wherein you change reality or stop time. The issue here isn't oneself; if the character wants to move to Happy Land where things go as he likes, fantastic. But the other characters in THIS (whichever) dimension are unaffected. Unless it's UAA, the we're just talking about moving them somewhere and declaring, carte blanche, "this dimension works a certain way and so you will obey."

 

As a usage of the HERO system, it sucks screaming out loud, to be blunt.

 

However, if someone wants a game with such fantastic elements at an affordable price, you can use the ability - just don't pretend it relates to the way the HERO system really works. Obviously IMNSHO, and with all due respect to Steve Long. I'm not suggesting a person's game is "broken" in and of itself, and to each his own, when it comes to individual games. I won't even say that I might not come across a reason to do so. But at this point we're simply talking GM fiat, not real rules usage. At best, it's rules corruption.

 

All that being said, personally, as a GM, I might allow the time traveling character to have a SPD > 12, either doubling the points per 1 SPD > 12 or simply allowing them at normal 10 per 1 SPD.

 

I also like the idea of some SPD with Invisible Power Effects, but then you also have to buy the attacks with IPE as well. Well, I guess you don't, I guess all of a sudden people realize the time guy has moved somehow (even if just his head or hand) and you say, "Ah-ha, he stopped time and attacked me!" But the certainty to hit is hard to deal with; I'd say just call it 1 hex area and assume that a missed attack is simply a normal critical failure (simply be sure to build up the CV so that any area hit fails only on an 18).

 

And of course an area suppress versus SPD with Personal Immunity is really a great way to go.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

As I opined in a different thread, I think "Time Stop" is a Variable Power Pool. As with any other SFX, the question isn't "What Power lets me stop time?"... the question is "What do I want to be able to accomplish as a result of having stopped time?"

 

Whenever you want to stop time in order to accomplish something, ask yourself, "What game mechanic would best simulate the accomplishment of this task?" Whatever game mechanic that is, you use the VPP to create it.

 

(I suppose if you wanted a more restricted type of time stop, where you could only accomplish a limited number of things as a result of the time stoppage, you could use Multipower instead of VPP...)

 

Of course, this is likely to be a horrifically expensive VPP. But then, stopping time is potentially a horrifically powerful effect...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

"Stupid"?

 

Well, it's not intended to be interpreted as "Keep it simple, you stupid idiot!" It's more of a general thing, like "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!" No one is suggesting you intend to put an immature human into a container of dirty water and then throw him/her out a window.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

However' date=' if someone wants a game with such fantastic elements at an affordable price, you can use the ability - just don't pretend it relates to the way the HERO system really works. Obviously IMNSHO, and with all due respect to Steve Long. I'm not suggesting a person's game is "broken" in and of itself, and to each his own, when it comes to individual games. I won't even say that I might not come across a reason to do so. But at this point we're simply talking GM fiat, not real rules usage. At best, it's rules corruption.[/quote']

 

I'm not certain how you can say that as a blanket statement.

 

Extradimensional Movement has the ability to affect time; it says so right there in the book.

 

Dimensions where time moves differently or even flows backwards are staples of various genres. It's not unreasonable to use EDM to get to them, nor is it unreasonable to require EDM bought with the ability to move through time to get there.

 

It's certainly reasonable to postulate a dimension, where time in this dimension is stopped (or nearly so) relative to that dimension. And it's reasonable to use EDM, again bought with the ability to move through time, as the means for accessing that dimension.

 

There are many good reasons why EDM has a stop sign next to it, this being one of them.

 

There are a million reasons completely unrelated to rules legality why doing it this way might not be a good idea. And I'm certainly on board with making anything you can do to the home dimension be more expensive (for instance requiring Transdimensional on your normal senses to be able to sense the real world, or requiring Transdimensional on your Strength to pick up and move objects there, or requiring Affects Physical World on attacks to harm people there).

 

But I absolutely disagree that reading the description of EDM this way is in any way breaking or corrupting the rules.

[zornwil]

Re: Freezing the Time

 

I'm not certain how you can say that as a blanket statement.

 

Extradimensional Movement has the ability to affect time; it says so right there in the book.

 

First, where did I not say it was legal? I reread what I wrote - nowhere do I indicate the book doesn't say this. I said it was a horrid ruling, and I stand by that.

 

It says so in a section of "other uses" preceding such discussion with "to simulate any situation in which a character is in a different state of being, cannot interact with the "real world", or is any place which is inaccessbile to others". First this entire explanation is dubious from the start given the declared mechanics of the power, but it's not an unfair extension. While it gives a one-off sentence of "Similar uses include stopping time (the character "travels to the dimension" where he's the only thing in the world not frozen in time"), it gives neither form nor function to this. Do you really take this seriously as a rule of the HERO system? What rational basis does it have? The paragraph following mentions how EDM should be managed carefully. The toss-off of "stop time" with no further discussion, and notably in light of the specific sentence (the bolded highlighted one) which kicks off this discussion is clearly not a usable rule as such.

 

Let's say I took over HERO games tomorrow, and in Energy Blast I inserted "You can also choose to make Energy Blast destroy an object outright, if the situation fits." Sure, it's "in the book" and "it's a rule", but it has no basis in the system and is just plain wrong or, rather, useless, anyway.

 

Dimensions where time moves differently or even flows backwards are staples of various genres. It's not unreasonable to use EDM to get to them, nor is it unreasonable to require EDM bought with the ability to move through time to get there.

 

Agreed.

 

It's certainly reasonable to postulate a dimension, where time in this dimension is stopped (or nearly so) relative to that dimension. And it's reasonable to use EDM, again bought with the ability to move through time, as the means for accessing that dimension.

 

Again, absolutely agree.

 

These are all different things than someone wanting to stop time in THIS dimension and impact the beings around them, the clear implication of the kick-off post.

 

There are many good reasons why EDM has a stop sign next to it, this being one of them.

 

There are a million reasons completely unrelated to rules legality why doing it this way might not be a good idea. And I'm certainly on board with making anything you can do to the home dimension be more expensive (for instance requiring Transdimensional on your normal senses to be able to sense the real world, or requiring Transdimensional on your Strength to pick up and move objects there, or requiring Affects Physical World on attacks to harm people there).

 

But I absolutely disagree that reading the description of EDM this way is in any way breaking or corrupting the rules.

 

As I said, the ruling is the problem. Sure, it's in the book. Are we suggesting the book is necessarily the best implementation in all aspects of the HERO sysetm, that each rule is as inviolate as the system from which it arises?