Animal Powered vehicles

[Ereinion]

How do I build animal powered vehicles like chariots or carriages?

 

I was thinking maybe buying clinging for the vehicle and assuming that the creatures it clings to pull it at their speed. any suggestions?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

Well, the official method for building this is detailed in The Ultimate Vehicle, but I don't want to give away too many details of Hero Games's copyrighted material. I'll just say that TUV gives such vehicles Gliding as their only movement capability, with the Limitation, "Towed" (-1/2). Towed means that the vehicle can only move when pulled by something else, at its maximum speed or that of the puller, whichever is less.

 

There's much more to it, but again I feel restrained in what I can reveal here.

[Curufea]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

This begs the question - why do you need to use the rules to build vehicles?

Will PCs be using character points to buy vehicles?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

Sometimes they do. Sometimes you just need some stats.

[Rage]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

and that's the (number) cruncher.

[Curufea]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

I just look up the stats for the materials in "destroying things" if I need to, and the animal in the bestiary - everything else I get from the real world (ie speed/carrying capacity). Check out the huge amount of Hârn resources.

[austenandrews]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

Well' date=' the official method for building this is detailed in [i']The Ultimate Vehicle[/i], but I don't want to give away too many details of Hero Games's copyrighted material. I'll just say that TUV gives such vehicles Gliding as their only movement capability, with the Limitation, "Towed" (-1/2). Towed means that the vehicle can only move when pulled by something else, at its maximum speed or that of the puller, whichever is less.

 

There's much more to it, but again I feel restrained in what I can reveal here.

Gliding? That sounds a bit silly.

[gojira]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

Unless the vehicle has special powers, shouldn't this be covered by wealth? Lord Relgith has a firey steed but Durnic the ploughman can only afford an ox and a creaky cart? I mean, that's character points too.

 

I guess if you seriously needed a mechanic, I'd either buy a follower with some heavy limitations. Or just buy STR, with the lim "only for transport of passengers / cargo, only where large animals and a cart will travel". At least -1.5, maybe -2 or more.

 

More details should come from the material list and the bestiary, as already mentioned.

[Ereinion]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

Well I guess I'll have to check out the ultimate vehicle to find the answers I seek.

 

I was trying to build an underwater chariot pulled by manta ray. It has a force wall which is transparent to energy attacks (good for shooting through with the character's lightning spear:eg: ) plus a magical auto-drive system (computer with the appropriate programs)

 

thanks for your help

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

Well, don't forget, that barring the occassional major difference, all of the core rules exist in HERO. Without stepping on any Copyright toes:

 

- Determine the mass of the vehicle itself. Determine the weight (on average) of passengers. If you want to get really specific, you can change movement rates based on total passengers. You can also cost it out at "max capacity" and use that as your base.

 

- Determine the STR of your creature, and note its unencumbered movement speed. There's a rule in there somewhere for 'encumbrance' - how much you slow down based on what you're carrying.

 

- Cost out each creature as a "follower." That's a guess, without my book in front of me, but if you want a cost, that seems like the fastest way to cost the creature itself.

 

- Take the total amount of weight in HERO terms of STR required to pull it, making any adjustments for an underwater/on water environment. Since you are underwater, Gliding actually makes a lot of sense here.

 

- Divide the net weight across the STR of each creature; then determine the final speed. Voila.

 

- Any powers you want to build stack after that. Since you can never actually go faster than the fastest creature, adding more creatures reduces the total weight ratio in terms of encumbrance. That should simulate it nicely.

 

My $0.02. Unless I answered the wrong question, in which case, discard this completely.

[Ereinion]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

Thankyou very much for your help. It's a little complicated but the strength calcuations will come in very handy when a char wants to hook up different animals to pull the vehicle.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

This begs the question - why do you need to use the rules to build vehicles?

Will PCs be using character points to buy vehicles?

 

Sometimes they do. Sometimes you just need some stats.

 

Some of those stats include not just movement, but also DEF and certain other abilities (in FH, for instance, a wagon could have magical defenses and counterattacks, healing properties, or a variety of other abilities).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

A while ago, I started a thread called "Lift, horsey, lift!" complaining about the TUV rules about animal-pulled vehicles. To be much more realistic, you shouldn't compair the animal's lifting STR to the weight of the vehicle, because the animal doesn't have to lift the vehicle off the ground (unless the vehicle is being pulled straight up). I can easily push a shopping cart full of groceries that I can't lift. You may have heard of a wonderful friction-reducing invention called the Wheel. The STR an animal needs to pull a vehicle is related to the friction in the wheel's axle, the friction between the wheel and the gound, the slope of the surface it's pulled along, and the size of the wheels. Yes, the vehicle's weight is involved, but the wheels are there to bear most of the load. In the case of a flying vehicle, the aerodynamics provides most of the lift, as does bouyancy in water vehicles.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

My original rules for towing in TUV allowed for more leeway with STR -- in effect allowing STR + 10 and other factors to involve how well a Vehicle can be towed. (I'd post some of the specifics, but they're not available on this computer if I even still have them at all.)

 

That said, perhaps a future edition (or DH article) could allow a new Adder for a towed vehicle allowing the towing party to do the job with less STR.

[gojira]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

I haven't seen the rules in question, but it does occur to me that pushing a shopping cart on a perfectly level and flat surface could be a lot different from towing a cart over the types of roads that are likely to exist back when animals where still used for transport.

 

(Whew! And sorry to all the English majors for that horrible run-on sentence.)

 

Anyhoo, very old wheels didn't have ball bearings. Certainly they didn't have steel bearings with good grease. Pulling a cart up even a mild grade must have been very tireing. From hiking experience, I can tell you that going downhill with a load can be even more tireing. Numerous rocks and ruts in a load can increase the strain on a draft animal greatly, and mud will stop them completely.

 

I think using STR as a measure of pulling capacity may be pretty reasonable.

 

One idea where you are correct is boats and water ways. I think just at the start of the industrial revolution, England was criss-crossed with small canals, about 10 feet wide or so, that were used to bear freight. One man with one horse could pull a very large load. A system of small locks where used to connect different levels together.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

You may have heard of a wonderful friction-reducing invention called the Wheel.

 

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

I haven't seen the rules in question, but it does occur to me that pushing a shopping cart on a perfectly level and flat surface could be a lot different from towing a cart over the types of roads that are likely to exist back when animals where still used for transport.

 

Anyhoo, very old wheels didn't have ball bearings. Certainly they didn't have steel bearings with good grease. Pulling a cart up even a mild grade must have been very tireing. From hiking experience, I can tell you that going downhill with a load can be even more tireing. Numerous rocks and ruts in a load can increase the strain on a draft animal greatly, and mud will stop them completely.

 

I think using STR as a measure of pulling capacity may be pretty reasonable.

If the STR required for a horse to pull a cart was the same as to carry the same load upon the horse's back, then the cart would never have been invented. Wheels don't need ball bearings to be able to bear the load. The ball bearings only reduce the friction in the axle. Yes, incline, rough ground, and primitive wheel-axle technology does make a difference, as I said:

The STR an animal needs to pull a vehicle is related to the friction in the wheel's axle' date=' the friction between the wheel and the gound, the slope of the surface it's pulled along, and the size of the wheels. Yes, the vehicle's weight is involved, but the wheels are there to bear most of the load.[/quote']

But the total STR needed is significantly less. People should know basic Newtonian physics. The force needed to pull a load up a hill is less than that needed to pull the load straight up. If the length of the slope is 20" and the height is 10" (that is, a 30 degree incline), if takes half the force it would to lift the load. Almost no amount of rough ground/sticky wheels is going to outweigh that reduction. Even if there are no wheels at all, it it usually easier to pull a load along the ground than to carry it. Have you ever moved furniture on carpet? I can't lift my desk, but I can push it along the carpeted floor - no wheels at all, and quite a bit of friction.

 

I think just at the start of the industrial revolution, England was criss-crossed with small canals, about 10 feet wide or so, that were used to bear freight. One man with one horse could pull a very large load. A system of small locks where used to connect different levels together.

That's very interesting. I didn't know about that. How did it work with horses pulling barges? Were the horses wading in the water? Or were they pulling at an angle with the barges scraping against the side of the canals? Did they do anything to reduce that friction? Or was there some other arrangement that I'm failing to visualize?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

That's very interesting. I didn't know about that. How did it work with horses pulling barges? Were the horses wading in the water? Or were they pulling at an angle with the barges scraping against the side of the canals? Did they do anything to reduce that friction? Or was there some other arrangement that I'm failing to visualize?

 

Pulling a boat on foot (cordelling) can be done in the river bed, but for regular canal routes, they would have used paths along the side. The boat's rudder would be used to keep it out in the water rather than scraping the sides. If there's room on the banks, this can be done along rivers, as well.

[gojira]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

If the STR required for a horse to pull a cart was the same as to carry the same load upon the horse's back' date=' then the cart would never have been invented.... as I said:[/quote']

 

I didn't mean to sound like I was being quarrelsome, so I'd like to appologize. It wasn't my purpose to try to denigrate your post, or anyone's posts, here.

 

I just remember that every book on games or medieval armies I've read emphasizes how bad medieval roads were, and how slow armies with wagons traveled (like 4 miles a day). When armies wanted to move quickly, the did carry everything on horseback. Check out Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army. I think Amazon has used copies.

 

That's very interesting. I didn't know about that. How did it work with horses pulling barges? Were the horses wading in the water? Or were they pulling at an angle with the barges scraping against the side of the canals? Did they do anything to reduce that friction? Or was there some other arrangement that I'm failing to visualize?

 

The correct answer is "I don't know." However, I'm gonna guess that they did not bump and scrape along the side of the canal. If you do a search on Google for "England canals", you get a lot of links. Some of the old canal boats pictured are very nice, and brightly painted. I don't think the owners would have let them get scraped up.

 

For example, there's a vacation service for people who want to rent a restored canal boat and go boating in England. Also, Canal Junction is a site with a lot of links, including history.

 

I'm gonna speculate that what they did with the horse was that they either had poles that they used to keep the barge off the sides of the canal, or the barges had a rudder and tiller that could be used to steer the boat. Either way, if you look at some of the pictures, you can see the boats were small and close to the edge of the canal. It would have taken not too long of a lead, I'd guess 30' to 40', to reduce the angle the lead made with the edge of the canal. This would have reduced the sideways force greatly and made it pretty easy to keep the barges off the sides of the canal.

 

It is funny that you should mention swimming horses though. According to this one story Tommy was a horse who hated the moon, and would chase it's reflection in the water if he was allowed. One at least one occation, he did go for a swim in the canal. I don't know if he was towing a boat at the same time, though.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Animal Powered vehicles

 

I didn't mean to sound like I was being quarrelsome' date=' so I'd like to appologize. It wasn't my purpose to try to denigrate your post, or anyone's posts, here.[/quote']

No need to apologize. I didn't take it that way. I hope I didn't sound quarrelsome either.