Advantagous sfx

[schir1964]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

No' date=' but if a player built this character correctly, wouldn't they buy desolid? At that point, they would get out of the grab? I have to admit, I am not that up on Shapeshift, and that might be my limitation.[/quote']

Don't even get me started on Desolid in relation to this... (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I sure do love that dead horse taste...

 

Do you know what really got me about this? Remember all those REALLY long threads on shapeshift? Well, many grabs, especially martial grabs (which often rely on your anatomy following certain fundamental principles), SHOULD be escapable if you have a completely maleable body. I have long argued - you can go back and check that the ability to deform yourself SHOULD be a part of the power description of stretching, possibly as an adder. It is not though, it is part of the power description of shapeshift (touch).

 

I mean I could argue with some authority that if I had full spectrum shapeshift then that should include a degree of stretching, as I can turn into a very tall person with thin limbs twice as long, but that is not how the power works, so I can't do that.

 

I really am not against individual games having rules that you can do all kinds of things with sfx: I would not want to discourage that at all. What I am against is the rule book suggesting that this sort of thing is appropriate, in a main rules section. In a campaign philosophy bit, fine and dandy. If it had said that SHAPESHIFT (TOUCH) would allow you to get out of grabs and maybe entangles, I would not be writing this in all likelihood: that is what the power does.

But what if Stretching has built into its points value a rough approximation of this partial utility?

 

Just to play devil's advocate...

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Growth? Shrinking? Desolid? Duplication? Multiform?

 

Those can -- and should -- give automatic breakout of a grab, depending on their SFX, regardless of whether or not it's a "straight hands-on grab" or not.

 

• Suddenly too big to hold onto (so large no body part is capable of being grasped by the former grabber)
  
• To small to hold onto, possibly even to the point of being able to slip between tightly clenched fingers if small enough
  
• Just turning into a wraith and walking away
  
• Depending on the way the Duplication is defined, the grabber may still be holding the original, be holding one arm each of two identical people, or whatever. In any case, there are a lot of circumstances where he'd no longer have his target 'grabbed', as defined by the rules, if the target simply turns on her Duplication
  
• The target changes into something very large (t-rex), very small (flea), offensive (porcupine, electric eel), or whatever. The grab is going to be broken.
  

 

Sorry, zornwil, but I have to flatly disagree with your blanket statement about a straight, hands-on grab not being able to be broken through the activation of a body-affecting Power.

 

Like anything, it's a generalization - but it doesn't require rules codification, and your "common sense" may not be the same as mine.

 

Growth?

 

Why can't one hang on to a giant? Even if only by their hair. What you have grabbed will change, but I really don't think it is broken out of, precisely, aside from any corresponding STR changes.

 

Shrinking?

 

Again, generally, why wouldn't the person's grab simply end up with the shrinker in their hand? If molecular they (the Shriinker) still has to buy Desol in some form to move through the hand, though of course in that case the shrinked being is undetectable.

 

Desolid?

 

True, but it is built for that by definition, I think it was pretty obvious to be fair I wasn't including powers already designed specifically to evade solids.

 

Duplication?

 

Shouldn't you be holding the original, again generally? I understand your "could be" and all reasonably true, but mostly, again, one would expect not to lose grasp.

 

Multiform?

 

Again, the form may be problematic, but why wouldn't you have a grasp?

 

I'm not suggesting there can't be special cases, but as a rule I think grabbing characters should have the upper hand in these cases, although their ability to continue on will certainly be changed by these. The shrinker will get away as the guy opens his hands to see what happened. The giant just shakes his leg and if you're holding a leg hair, you go flying. A morphed creature will vary as to what's grabbed and whether that handle can be maintained. But as your note suggests, it's not as if we even need the rules to suggest such a thing, and "as a rule" I don't see a need to address it.

 

PS - I think you're fairly over-excited if you call the below paragraph a "flat fiat" or such:

 

"I think the problem is that a "grab" can also be based on various SFX, but a straight hands-on grab shouldn't be "escaped". I put the latter term in quotes as well because it depends on what we mean - a Stretching character can still stretch, normally, whatever is not grabbed, so if grabbed around just the waist, he's generally fairly free other than being restrained at that single point (i.e., he can move all his appendages freely). So while one cannot escape literally, from my perspective, they could still be almost as good as free, just being contained at one point but able to move around that point."

 

- what's so "fiat" about this - I said "shouldn't", not "couldn't" and I indicated that there's certainly some degree of change in condition in "they could still be almost as good as free, just being contained at one point but able to move around that point," re the stretching example, which pretty well applies as a generality to other cases.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

But what if Stretching has built into its points value a rough approximation of this partial utility?

 

Just to play devil's advocate...

 

Then, my friend, it is unique in the hero lexicon of powers

 

I think we have to start by assuming that powers do what they say they do and nothing more, otherwise every one of us is working from a different set of base rules.

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Then, my friend, it is unique in the hero lexicon of powers

 

I think we have to start by assuming that powers do what they say they do and nothing more, otherwise every one of us is working from a different set of base rules.

Well, it does state it in the rules...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Well' date=' it does state it in the rules... [/quote']

 

Not in mine: I have scissors

[Utech]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Growth? Shrinking? Desolid? Duplication? Multiform?

 

Those can -- and should -- give automatic breakout of a grab, depending on their SFX, regardless of whether or not it's a "straight hands-on grab" or not.

I think Dr. Anomaly has the right idea here. Appropriate special effects of a power should be able to trump the straight up mechanics of a maneuver.

 

Would I always go that route? No. 'Course not. I would probably give player characters a break before handing them out to my own GM baddies. If the team brick has Largely Icky Shrinking Person in a solid grip I would probably let that grip continue even when LISP shrinks. I would definitelyallow the team brick to hold LISP if the brick said something like, "I'm going to hold on tight. I know LISP can shrink and I'm ready for it."

 

There are lots of other powers that by their very nature -- and assuming that their special effects merit -- remove the ability to perform combat maneuvers or limit their effects:

• Entangle

• Mental Illusions

• Mind Control

• Telekinesis (TK grab)

• Extra Limbs

• Force Field (defending against some NND attacks)

• Force Wall

• Missile Deflection and Reflection

• Extra Dimensional Movement

• Flight

• Gliding

• Leaping

• Running

• Swimming

• Swinging

• Teleportation

• Tunneling

I no doubt missed some.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that there is something broken in the system because the Human Torch's Flight allows him to ignore every hand-to-hand combat maneuver in the rulebook when fighting The Thing.

 

---

 

Edited to clarify that Powers in and of themselves are not the deciding factor in removing combat maneuvers. It is the combination of Powers and Special Effects that do the trick. At least around these here parts.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I think Dr. Anomaly has the right idea here. Appropriate special effects of a power should be able to trump the straight up mechanics of a maneuver.[/Quote]

 

From your later comments I think you mean that appropriate powers would trump the straight up mechanics of a manoeuvre,no?

 

Flight and EB are a tactic for avoiding HtH combat and thus removing HtH manoeuvres from play - they don't trump the manoeuvre - it was never used.

 

If the team brick has Largely Icky Shrinking Person in a solid grip I would probably let that grip continue even when LISP shrinks. I would definitelyallow the team brick to hold LISP if the brick said something like' date=' "I'm going to hold on tight. I know LISP can shrink and I'm ready for it."[/Quote']

 

And what Sean is saying is that when the grabbed person shrinks they should get a new breakout roll - possibly enhanced due to the use of their power rather than simply straight STR vs STR.

 

Your proviso would mean that the bonus for using shrinking would be less or non-existent (in my or Sean's game).

 

There are lots of other powers that by their very nature remove the ability to perform combat maneuvers or limit their effects:

 

Exactly - powers limit or remove the ability to perform cambat manouevres not SFX, powers. Those points you spent on the powers are allowing you to get an advantage the SFX that you didn't spend points on should not be as effective as the powers...

 

 

Doc

[Utech]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

From your later comments I think you mean that appropriate powers would trump the straight up mechanics of a manoeuvre' date='no?[/quote']

If the power has the appropriate special effects, yes.

Flight and EB are a tactic for avoiding HtH combat and thus removing HtH manoeuvres from play - they don't trump the manoeuvre - it was never used.

Nonsense! The Thing is welcome to throw punch after punch at The Human Torch. They just won't do any good. Just as The Thing is welcome to Grab Mr. Fantastic. It just won't do any good.

 

And what Sean is saying is that when the grabbed person shrinks they should get a new breakout roll - possibly enhanced due to the use of their power rather than simply straight STR vs STR.

And I think that's a good way to handle it. I also think there are cases where the special effects of Shrinking would simply allow the shrinker to walk away from a grab without the need for any breakout roll at all. Case by case, special effect by special effect.

 

Your proviso would mean that the bonus for using shrinking would be less or non-existent (in my or Sean's game).

No, I'm sure you'll keep doing things your own way. Which is exactly as it should be.

 

powers limit or remove the ability to perform cambat manouevres not SFX' date=' powers. Those points you spent on the powers are allowing you to get an advantage the SFX that you didn't spend points on should not be as effective as the powers...[/quote']

Sorry, Doc, but I'm just going to keep disagreeing with you. I think the time and creativity spent on making a great set of special effects are to be rewarded. And I will.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

No, I'm sure you'll keep doing things your own way. Which is exactly as it should be.

 

Sorry, Doc, but I'm just going to keep disagreeing with you. I think the time and creativity spent on making a great set of special effects are to be rewarded. And I will.

 

And as long as you understand you are wrong then me and Sean will be happy.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

 

What?

[Utech]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

And as long as you understand you are wrong then me and Sean will be happy.

oO(No. I'm not wrong. But that animated GIF...

 

So compelling...

 

The waving fingers... The tongue...

 

Losing will... Unable to fight...

 

Curse you, Doc Democracy! Curse you! Curse...)

 

Yes. I understand. I am wrong. It is all so clear to me. Now.

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

oO(No. I'm not wrong. But that animated GIF...

 

So compelling...

 

The waving fingers... The tongue...

 

Losing will... Unable to fight...

 

Curse you, Doc Democracy! Curse you! Curse...)

 

Yes. I understand. I am wrong. It is all so clear to me. Now.

 

 

I love these boards

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I love these boards

 

I'd have repped him but I'm out for the day - will have to wait and join the list...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I'd have repped him but I'm out for the day - will have to wait and join the list...

 

Me too but I'm going to have to spread the love first, apparently. Anyone out there feel like making any sense?

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Me too but I'm going to have to spread the love first' date=' apparently. Anyone out there feel like making any sense?[/quote']

Why start something new?

[OddHat]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Me too but I'm going to have to spread the love first' date=' apparently. Anyone out there feel like making any sense?[/quote']

 

I got him.

 

As to sense, well, the common ground is that SFX should allow trivial advantage and impose trivial limits, and that the Power skill may be a useful way to stretch things a bit further.

 

The conflict is over the idea that SFX may actually sometimes trump mechanics, as with Stretching vs Grab.

 

In that specific case, I'd argue that Stretching already has "Flexibility" built into it, and can thus sometimes trump Grab. Characters like Macine Man buy their Mechanical Streching with the -0 limit "Does Not Grant Flexibility". It's a real limit, like Cinematic Invulnerability's implied -0 limit on the Armor mechanic of "Not when being invulnerable wouldn't be very cinematic". It's just too minor to be worth stating out. If it does seem more limiting than that in a given campaign, maybe -1/4 would be appropriate.

 

More generally, I'd suggest that very occasionally, when it suits the flow of the story, special effects may be permitted to trump mechanics. However, if that's not the case in your campaign, no worries.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

As a general rule, I'd look at the active points of the power you are using, less anything like 0 END - only advantages that actually enhance the use of the power in this situation. Then I'd divide by 5 and use that as a base 'adder' (so 30 points of shrinking might allow us to, in effect add 30/5=6d6 to our effective strength for breaking out of a grab, if that is what it is used against, or +6 on a stealth/concealment roll to vanish in plain sight. Or you could, with 60 points in growth, grow and shrink again real quick and, in effect get a 12" bonus to a leap so that you can cross a gap and land on something that would not support your giant form). Limitations on the power that would logically affect the bonus would either reduce or negate it. I might well require a power skill roll to actually make it happen.

 

Pretty simple to administer, generally, and it relates the amount you have spent on the 'complimentary power' to the utility you get from it, which I also like - it makes sense to me that someone with 1" of stretching is going to get less use from it than someone with 10", when it comes to escaping grabs and so on.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I would feel more comfortable with a mechanic for incorporating sfx/powers in unexpected ways. It avoids paper/scissors/rock arguments about which power beats which power, or at least quantifies the arguments into a more coherent form.

 

Oh, and thanks Oddhat for repping Utech: much obliged

[Stormspace]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

When I read the first post that used stretching as an example I immediately thought of a PC in a game I played in. Unlike Mr. Fantastic the characters stretching special effect duplicated spiderman's web swinging. In effect the webs stretched to the target and then she swung on those. The SFX didn't include the PC stretching at all. In this case the PC wouldn't be able to avoid a grab manuever like Mr. Fantastic.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Me too but I'm going to have to spread the love first' date=' apparently. Anyone out there feel like making any sense?[/quote']

You're asking an aweful lot here...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

When I read the first post that used stretching as an example I immediately thought of a PC in a game I played in. Unlike Mr. Fantastic the characters stretching special effect duplicated spiderman's web swinging. In effect the webs stretched to the target and then she swung on those. The SFX didn't include the PC stretching at all. In this case the PC wouldn't be able to avoid a grab manuever like Mr. Fantastic.

 

I agree, but I'd have given the character a cost break on stretching for the limited utility you describe...for one it would not have had the inherent indirect aspects that stretching can entail, and could only really be used for pulling (either you to something or something to you) or maybe striking, so I'd have thought quite a big limitation was in order, anything up to -1 maybe.

 

I shouldn't be bringing this up here of course, but I am of the view that streching is too expensive anyway, and I wouldn't mind easter eggs like increased effective strength against grabs and entangle as part of the actual power description, if they didn't feel like just making it cheaper. Point is there would then be equal access and if that is not the effect you want then you couls apply an appropriate limitation.

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

As a general rule, I'd look at the active points of the power you are using, less anything like 0 END - only advantages that actually enhance the use of the power in this situation. Then I'd divide by 5 and use that as a base 'adder' (so 30 points of shrinking might allow us to, in effect add 30/5=6d6 to our effective strength for breaking out of a grab, if that is what it is used against, or +6 on a stealth/concealment roll to vanish in plain sight. Or you could, with 60 points in growth, grow and shrink again real quick and, in effect get a 12" bonus to a leap so that you can cross a gap and land on something that would not support your giant form). Limitations on the power that would logically affect the bonus would either reduce or negate it. I might well require a power skill roll to actually make it happen.

 

Pretty simple to administer, generally, and it relates the amount you have spent on the 'complimentary power' to the utility you get from it, which I also like - it makes sense to me that someone with 1" of stretching is going to get less use from it than someone with 10", when it comes to escaping grabs and so on.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I would feel more comfortable with a mechanic for incorporating sfx/powers in unexpected ways. It avoids paper/scissors/rock arguments about which power beats which power, or at least quantifies the arguments into a more coherent form.

 

Oh, and thanks Oddhat for repping Utech: much obliged

This is good as an idea, but I think it's way overcomplicated compared to adjudicating SFX on a common sense basis, personally. I think most groups dont' have a hard time wingnig it in such instances.

[Utech]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I would feel more comfortable with a mechanic for incorporating sfx/powers in unexpected ways. It avoids paper/scissors/rock arguments about which power beats which power' date=' or at least quantifies the arguments into a more coherent form.[/quote']

I can see what you're after and I think your idea of using Active Points as a guildeline is a good one. But I think it is too much work when common or dramatic sense will generally say "This here is one of them times when y'all ought to just hand wave that puppy."

 

(I love it when common or dramatic sense talk to me. They are so much more friendly than the other voices in my head. )

 

Oh' date=' and thanks Oddhat for repping Utech: much obliged [/quote']

I am feeling the love.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Growth?

 

Why can't one hang on to a giant? Even if only by their hair. What you have grabbed will change, but I really don't think it is broken out of, precisely, aside from any corresponding STR changes.

Fine. Sure. Whatever.

 

Yup. Holding onto one hair of a giant really lets you do the things that Grab does, doesn't it? Squeeze them for damage ("Ow! My hair hurts!", right?), throw them (pull out the hair, maybe), immobilize two limbs (only if you count hair as a "limb") and so on and so forth.

 

Yes. You're right. The Grab may not be "broken", in that they still have ahold of some part of the target, but they aren't going to be able to do any of the things the Grab is supposed to allow you to do...so I fail to see the point of claiming the Grab "isn't broken".

 

And besides, there's this, from 5ER, p. 386, 2nd column, 3rd full paragraph unter the "Making A Grab" header:

 

"A character may not be able to Grab targets significantly larger than himself. A human, no matter how strong, isn't really able to Grab a giant."

 

Was the target Grabbed before he became a giant?

 

Yes.

 

Will he still be Grabbed after he uses his Growth to become a giant?

 

Doesn't look like it.

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Fine. Sure. Whatever.

 

Yup. Holding onto one hair of a giant really lets you do the things that Grab does, doesn't it? Squeeze them for damage ("Ow! My hair hurts!", right?), throw them (pull out the hair, maybe), immobilize two limbs (only if you count hair as a "limb") and so on and so forth.

 

Yes. You're right. The Grab may not be "broken", in that they still have ahold of some part of the target, but they aren't going to be able to do any of the things the Grab is supposed to allow you to do...so I fail to see the point of claiming the Grab "isn't broken".

 

And besides, there's this, from 5ER, p. 386, 2nd column, 3rd full paragraph unter the "Making A Grab" header:

 

"A character may not be able to Grab targets significantly larger than himself. A human, no matter how strong, isn't really able to Grab a giant."

 

Was the target Grabbed before he became a giant?

 

Yes.

 

Will he still be Grabbed after he uses his Growth to become a giant?

 

Doesn't look like it.

I really don't see how you got such a blanket statement from what I posted earlier, nor how it's inconsistent. Like I said, the condition can greatly change. But the starting point is if they grabbed such a thing already in that state as opposed to starting with a de facto dissolving of contact.