Advantagous sfx

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I do accept that sfx have to have an effect on the game from time to time, and I think they should, but only if they create a zero-sum situation - they give advantages, but also give limitations based on the sfx, and the advantages and limitations roughly balance and it would not really be practical to build.

 

Giving 'official' easter eggs is harful for these resons in my estimation:

 

1. It penalises accurate and thoughtful character design

2. It penalises players who take certain appropriate sfx

3. It encourages 'power sfxing' - picking the sfx that get you the most benefit

 

I mean, if you look at Mr Fantastic's stretching he SHOULD be able to do all sorts of things over and above increasing his reach: escaping entangles and grabs, performing enhanced grabs with his body, squeezing through small spaces, maybe even performing rudimentary disguises...

 

5th ed introduced the idea of shapeshifting (touch) that does a lot of his. There is a specific power allowing these additional effects. If someone wants to build a Mr Fanastic clone, do you, as GM tell them...

 

You'll need stretching and shapeshift (touch)

 

Or do you say...

 

Just take shapeshift, we'll handwave the rest...

 

And how would you recommend squaring that with the character in the same game who takes stretching defined as telescopic limbs rather than malleable flesh, and so can’t realistically rely on sfx to get these sort of (quite substantial) bonuses?

 

OK, I've beaten the dead horse and made my points. Just to be absolutely clear I am not claiming that there should not be SOME effect from the sfx of a power. I am saying that free bonuses should be balanced by free limitations. Sees to me that striving for that kind of balance is very much at the heart of Hero.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I was looking at the mechanics for grab, and noticed, that 'depending on sfx you can use streching to escape a grab'.

 

I thought that I'd quote the part of the original mail that started Sean off (on this topic anyway)

 

Now to me that reads like an absolute that is granted to some SFX that trumps the grabber and other people with the same power that have different SFX.

 

As I say - I think Sean has a legitimate grievance. He hasn't announced that all SFX advantages be abolished (alongside their disadvantages). He has also said that he likes the wiggle room that SFX can give to a GM looking to apply a small advantage or penalty to a player.

 

However, as read, the SFX here completely negate another players advantage - they allow the user of that SFX to escape grabs for free (very useful if you don't have to worry about one of the main combat manouevres.

 

If it had said that some SFX provide extra dice to escaping a grab then I don't think that Sean would be so concerned - that'd be obvious....

 

 

Doc

[Storn]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

And herein lies my current, biggest beef with Hero.

 

I mean, if you look at Mr Fantastic's stretching he SHOULD be able to do all sorts of things over and above increasing his reach: escaping entangles and grabs, performing enhanced grabs with his body, squeezing through small spaces, maybe even performing rudimentary disguises...

 

5th ed introduced the idea of shapeshifting (touch) that does a lot of his. There is a specific power allowing these additional effects. If someone wants to build a Mr Fanastic clone, do you, as GM tell them...

 

You'll need stretching and shapeshift (touch)

 

Or do you say...

 

Just take shapeshift, we'll handwave the rest...

 

Because there is "sloppy" character design...as Sean mentions... but there is also "I do want to be bothered with detail" players. I do NOT design sloppy characters.

 

However, I am in "buy Shapeshift and handwave" then marking down Disguise, Desolid (only for narrow spaces), and the grocery list of abilities marked down in loving detail.

 

And Hero is not so good at this. It WANTS everything quantified... its internal philosophy is based on 5 pts =1d6 FOR A SINGLE ability/power/effect and everythign falls somewhere along that line, with more powerful effects costing 10 or 15 pts for a 1d6. Which is why I have a big problem with Strength being so cheap.

 

I do think SFX is king. Small and sometimes HUGE bonuses should come from SFX. Because it is nature of drama... and it is especially the nature of drama in superhero comics. And if we are to emulate comics... then we should be encouraging of the rules, the mechanics and the esprit de corp that support those comic tropes. (the ones we like and want of course, and rejecting the tropes we don't like... but that is a group by group collective decision... not the decision of the game itself).

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I thought that I'd quote the part of the original mail that started Sean off (on this topic anyway)

 

Now to me that reads like an absolute that is granted to some SFX that trumps the grabber and other people with the same power that have different SFX.

 

As I say - I think Sean has a legitimate grievance. He hasn't announced that all SFX advantages be abolished (alongside their disadvantages). He has also said that he likes the wiggle room that SFX can give to a GM looking to apply a small advantage or penalty to a player.

 

However, as read, the SFX here completely negate another players advantage - they allow the user of that SFX to escape grabs for free (very useful if you don't have to worry about one of the main combat manouevres.

 

If it had said that some SFX provide extra dice to escaping a grab then I don't think that Sean would be so concerned - that'd be obvious....

 

 

Doc

But the example is itself the issue, as I think that's not an extraordinary or over-effective thing for the price of Stretching or Shape Shift or any other body-affecting ability (I realize SS is "sense-affecting" but its typical configuration is as a body-changing ability, so I think it falls into this category for this purpose) to be able to escape some Entangles based on SFX.

 

But you could argue (and it might not be a bad idea at all) that the Entangle ITSELF could/should take a small Lim, such as -1/4 probably or perhaps at highest -1/2, for "escaped by appropriate body-changing powers", as opposed to penalizing/changing the body-affecting powers' basic abilities.

 

In fact, I tend to think this is the better fix. Most Entangles probably would work with this. A handcuff-based Entangle is easily escaped by Shrinking, Stretching, or Shape Shift (but not Growth or Density Increase unless broken by STR increased as growing, which is more a side or related effect rather than direct).

 

I think Sean's right to raise the "0 sum" issue but I think this is already implied in the book, personally, even if an example like this isn't the best.

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

And herein lies my current, biggest beef with Hero.

 

 

 

Because there is "sloppy" character design...as Sean mentions... but there is also "I do want to be bothered with detail" players. I do NOT design sloppy characters.

 

However, I am in "buy Shapeshift and handwave" then marking down Disguise, Desolid (only for narrow spaces), and the grocery list of abilities marked down in loving detail.

 

And Hero is not so good at this. It WANTS everything quantified... its internal philosophy is based on 5 pts =1d6 FOR A SINGLE ability/power/effect and everythign falls somewhere along that line, with more powerful effects costing 10 or 15 pts for a 1d6. Which is why I have a big problem with Strength being so cheap.

 

I do think SFX is king. Small and sometimes HUGE bonuses should come from SFX. Because it is nature of drama... and it is especially the nature of drama in superhero comics. And if we are to emulate comics... then we should be encouraging of the rules, the mechanics and the esprit de corp that support those comic tropes. (the ones we like and want of course, and rejecting the tropes we don't like... but that is a group by group collective decision... not the decision of the game itself).

To broaden your point, this can and should be looked at in the broader context of characters and roleplaying, not just specific abiltiies. In the current story of our supers campaign, the team just went to Atlantis. One of the characters is of an alien race which the Atlantisians admire greatly, nearly worship. The player didn't pay for this. In fact, back at character conception this wasn't even considered, it's been an evolution of the campaign. But now it's quite useful, it's the equivalent of a Perk of some high order. Should he be "forced" to pay? On a pure points level, of course. But on the other hand his race is known to others as an ideal slave race...should we also put the Disad Reputation and Hunteds on his sheet? Should we do this for all characters as play evolves? Does anyone?

 

I think for the most part this isn't going to happen, yet is often "dramatic" and often the stuff that drives a part of a campaign.

 

It reveals the limitations of the "quantify and cost everything" model. I don't think it's practical, let alone desirable, to quantify every bit of these issues. Rather, it comes back to, as discussed in the Limitations Boondoggles thread, GM fairness, group balance, and so on. On the whole, we want our characters to be spotlighted at times and negatively treated at times, evening out on balance. Much of this relates to the evolving and situation-dependent aspects of a character.

 

So our powers should be considered similarly. Will the fire blast that allows the bearer to light candles and such end up actually revealing a similar minor limitation? Well, in the end, does it matter? If the lighting of a candle occurs once in 20 sessions and otherwise we hear nothing of the non-quantified advantage so the fire ability, who cares? But if such side abillities are common, e.g., regularly the candle is lit, every third session Darkness is illuminated "just briefly" for a "slight chance", and so on, then, sure, there really ought to be something to balance this, such as something is set on fire by accident on occassion or as soon as the firebearer lights up the Darkness someone gets a free pot-shot at him, and so on, then it works.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

So our powers should be considered similarly. Will the fire blast that allows the bearer to light candles and such end up actually revealing a similar minor limitation? Well, in the end, does it matter? If the lighting of a candle occurs once in 20 sessions and otherwise we hear nothing of the non-quantified advantage so the fire ability, who cares? But if such side abillities are common, e.g., regularly the candle is lit, every third session Darkness is illuminated "just briefly" for a "slight chance", and so on, then, sure, there really ought to be something to balance this, such as something is set on fire by accident on occassion or as soon as the firebearer lights up the Darkness someone gets a free pot-shot at him, and so on, then it works.

 

Jane "Dragon" Collins, Mrs. Oddhat's fire breathing character, ended one of our current group's battles by using her fire breath in a drug lab. I had made a point of repeatedly mentioning that there was almost no ventilation, and that the air was filled with white powder. Those working with the drugs were wearing breathing masks. She used her fire breath anyway. Blew up the house, knocked herself and the entire rest of the group out, destroyed evidence, severely injured the lab employees and allowed the bad guy and his chief lieutenant to flee.

 

Even if that never happens again in the campaign, I think quite a lot of lighting candles and illuminating dark rooms can be balanced against it.

[Tiree]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Wow, very tough thread.

 

I agree that sloppy character build should not be handwaved, no hindered either.

 

Say I have a Human Torch style character, but I didn't add the limitation - does not work in Vacuum and Water. Well, what does this tell me, it will work in a Vacuum and Water! Now you have to go: How does this work? Well it means that the character is creating its own Oxygen. That's cool, and now you have a small problem - Life Support! Now you need to buy the character life support, does not need to breathe. But lets say the character didn't? Now you have the option - the player now thinks of this, but how does he act upon it. GM Handwave? Or does the GM say no, you can't use it due to the fact your character hasn't perfected how to breathe his own Oxygen.

 

The Special Effect should help you with the build of the character. You can classify an NND where the fire character sucks out all the oxygen in a room. SFX is an Enhancer to how to build a character, not a get me out of Jail free card.

 

As for stretching, the player needs to buy Desolid to go through tiny holes. Even though his SFX is stretching and what not, he just may not be that good yet! But as a GM and it made sense, I might let the player do a Power Use roll with penalty based on Active Point of the power, and if he used it 3 times then they must buy the power, even if that means EP Debt.

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Jane "Dragon" Collins, Mrs. Oddhat's fire breathing character, ended one of our current group's battles by using her fire breath in a drug lab. I had made a point of repeatedly mentioning that there was almost no ventilation, and that the air was filled with white powder. Those working with the drugs were wearing breathing masks. She used her fire breath anyway. Blew up the house, knocked herself and the entire rest of the group out, destroyed evidence, severely injured the lab employees and allowed the bad guy and his chief lieutenant to flee.

 

Even if that never happens again in the campaign, I think quite a lot of lighting candles and illuminating dark rooms can be balanced against it.

Ha, great example of "on balance!"

 

That's another important factor, we simply can't predict, and so the ledger sheet, so to speak, might stay in the black, building up even, for a year or more of real time, then be wiped out or driven to the red ni one event.

 

Balance is an illusion.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

The Special Effect should help you with the build of the character. You can classify an NND where the fire character sucks out all the oxygen in a room. SFX is an Enhancer to how to build a character' date=' not a get me out of Jail free card.[/quote']

Again - no one disagrees with this. If you think your SFX are going to gain you a major advantage you haven't modeled the power properly. Likewise if you have a major Limitation on it due to SFX you haven't modeled it properly.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

But the example is itself the issue' date=' as I think that's not an extraordinary or over-effective thing for the price of Stretching or Shape Shift or any other body-affecting ability (I realize SS is "sense-affecting" but its typical configuration is as a body-changing ability, so I think it falls into this category for this purpose) to be able to escape some Entangles based on SFX. [/quote']

 

I don't think that entangles were the issue - though you made some very iunteresting points - the limitation should be on the entangle rather than an advantage on the body shifting.

 

The issue was grab. A common combat manoeuvre that becomes moot - regardless of the STR or anything else of the grabber.

 

the 'correct' SFX would effectively be removing that as an option for any opponent of a shifter.

 

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I don't think that entangles were the issue - though you made some very iunteresting points - the limitation should be on the entangle rather than an advantage on the body shifting.

 

The issue was grab. A common combat manoeuvre that becomes moot - regardless of the STR or anything else of the grabber.

 

the 'correct' SFX would effectively be removing that as an option for any opponent of a shifter.

 

 

Doc

I think the problem is that a "grab" can also be based on various SFX, but a straight hands-on grab shouldn't be "escaped". I put the latter term in quotes as well because it depends on what we mean - a Stretching character can still stretch, normally, whatever is not grabbed, so if grabbed around just the waist, he's generally fairly free other than being restrained at that single point (i.e., he can move all his appendages freely). So while one cannot escape literally, from my perspective, they could still be almost as good as free, just being contained at one point but able to move around that point.

 

However, a grab using a tool would be different, it would depend on the tool even if the maneuver is the same. To me, that's okay, because the tool is a "real world" implement or an implement being used for an unintended purpose, unless it's bought of course as an Entangle tool.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Balance is an illusion.

 

 

Zen Zornwil.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I sure do love that dead horse taste...

 

Do you know what really got me about this? Remember all those REALLY long threads on shapeshift? Well, many grabs, especially martial grabs (which often rely on your anatomy following certain fundamental principles), SHOULD be escapable if you have a completely maleable body. I have long argued - you can go back and check that the ability to deform yourself SHOULD be a part of the power description of stretching, possibly as an adder. It is not though, it is part of the power description of shapeshift (touch).

 

I mean I could argue with some authority that if I had full spectrum shapeshift then that should include a degree of stretching, as I can turn into a very tall person with thin limbs twice as long, but that is not how the power works, so I can't do that.

 

I really am not against individual games having rules that you can do all kinds of things with sfx: I would not want to discourage that at all. What I am against is the rule book suggesting that this sort of thing is appropriate, in a main rules section. In a campaign philosophy bit, fine and dandy. If it had said that SHAPESHIFT (TOUCH) would allow you to get out of grabs and maybe entangles, I would not be writing this in all likelihood: that is what the power does.

[Tiree]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I sure do love that dead horse taste...

 

Do you know what really got me about this? Remember all those REALLY long threads on shapeshift? Well, many grabs, especially martial grabs (which often rely on your anatomy following certain fundamental principles), SHOULD be escapable if you have a completely maleable body. I have long argued - you can go back and check that the ability to deform yourself SHOULD be a part of the power description of stretching, possibly as an adder. It is not though, it is part of the power description of shapeshift (touch).

 

I mean I could argue with some authority that if I had full spectrum shapeshift then that should include a degree of stretching, as I can turn into a very tall person with thin limbs twice as long, but that is not how the power works, so I can't do that.

 

I really am not against individual games having rules that you can do all kinds of things with sfx: I would not want to discourage that at all. What I am against is the rule book suggesting that this sort of thing is appropriate, in a main rules section. In a campaign philosophy bit, fine and dandy. If it had said that SHAPESHIFT (TOUCH) would allow you to get out of grabs and maybe entangles, I would not be writing this in all likelihood: that is what the power does.

 

No, but if a player built this character correctly, wouldn't they buy desolid? At that point, they would get out of the grab? I have to admit, I am not that up on Shapeshift, and that might be my limitation.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

No' date=' but if a player built this character correctly, wouldn't they buy desolid? At that point, they would get out of the grab? I have to admit, I am not that up on Shapeshift, and that might be my limitation.[/quote']

They may or may not have Desol depending the concept of their shapeshifting abilities. But it's not a garaunteed, or required, or expected, Power in a shapeshifter build.

[Tiree]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

They may or may not have Desol depending the concept of their shapeshifting abilities. But it's not a garaunteed' date=' or required, or expected, Power in a shapeshifter build.[/quote']

 

That may be true for a Shapeshifter build, but for an Elasti-Hero Build it would be. Wouldn't it? I don't see why a Person who shapeshifted into J-Lo would still be able to get out of the Entangle, or even the Pope. Heck even a Werewolf. I might rule it would be possible for someone shapeshifting into another creature - but wouldn't the person grabbing still not keep their grip? I would be more inclined to give someone Growth or Shrinking a better chance at escaping than shapeshift.

 

If you had a character who had telescopic arms and legs (Go, Go Gadget Arms) you could buy a more limiting Desolidification - just for arms and legs. Your SFX should determine what side abilities and what should limit the character.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

That may be true for a Shapeshifter build, but for an Elasti-Hero Build it would be. Wouldn't it? I don't see why a Person who shapeshifted into J-Lo would still be able to get out of the Entangle, or even the Pope. Heck even a Werewolf. I might rule it would be possible for someone shapeshifting into another creature - but wouldn't the person grabbing still not keep their grip? I would be more inclined to give someone Growth or Shrinking a better chance at escaping than shapeshift.

 

If you had a character who had telescopic arms and legs (Go, Go Gadget Arms) you could buy a more limiting Desolidification - just for arms and legs. Your SFX should determine what side abilities and what should limit the character.

You could buy Desol - I certainly wouldn't require it for any concept build. It may be that telescoping arms can't get out of an entangle (I wouldn't let them out of handcuffs).

 

There's nothing anywhere that says all forms of Stretching or Shapeshifting can get out of an Entangle - which is how I read the implication of your post. Just as there's nothing anywhere stating you Haev to buy something like Desol to fit a character concept (strong suggestions not withstanding).

 

Or have I just completely missed your point?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

There is certainly a large degree of potential overlap between shapeshift (touch) and desolid (only to deform to pass through gaps/escape entangles and grabs etc), and desolid is probably the superior power in terms of utility, but a touch shapeshifter, especially one who can change into ANY shape can do a good Houdini too. The point I make is that, logical as supposing stretching gives you the power to deform yourself is, stretching is not a power that, as it is defined, allows you to escape grabs/entangles/closely spaced bars. This is the sort of thing that SHOULD be in the power definition if it is something that the power can do. If the power can't do it then it seems, given that there are specific powers for accomplishing this sort of thing, a quite substantial gift to allow it to be used in that way. To me this goes beyond the utility that should be expected from a clever definition of sfx.

 

In fact I think that, to an extent we have it all backwards. The book says it is up tot he player to decide what his hero's powers sfx are like. Surely we should be starting with sfx, as part of the concept, and then deciding what the POWERS should be like?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I think the problem is that a "grab" can also be based on various SFX' date=' but a straight hands-on grab shouldn't be "escaped".[/quote']

Growth? Shrinking? Desolid? Duplication? Multiform?

 

Those can -- and should -- give automatic breakout of a grab, depending on their SFX, regardless of whether or not it's a "straight hands-on grab" or not.

 

• Suddenly too big to hold onto (so large no body part is capable of being grasped by the former grabber)
  
• To small to hold onto, possibly even to the point of being able to slip between tightly clenched fingers if small enough
  
• Just turning into a wraith and walking away
  
• Depending on the way the Duplication is defined, the grabber may still be holding the original, be holding one arm each of two identical people, or whatever. In any case, there are a lot of circumstances where he'd no longer have his target 'grabbed', as defined by the rules, if the target simply turns on her Duplication
  
• The target changes into something very large (t-rex), very small (flea), offensive (porcupine, electric eel), or whatever. The grab is going to be broken.
  

 

Sorry, zornwil, but I have to flatly disagree with your blanket statement about a straight, hands-on grab not being able to be broken through the activation of a body-affecting Power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

In fact I think that' date=' to an extent we have it all backwards. The book says it is up tot he player to decide what his hero's powers sfx are like. Surely we should be starting with sfx, as part of the concept, and then deciding what the POWERS should be like?[/quote']

Reason from Effect you mean? Or something else?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Growth? Shrinking? Desolid? Duplication? Multiform?

 

Those can -- and should -- give automatic breakout of a grab, depending on their SFX, regardless of whether or not it's a "straight hands-on grab" or not.

 

• Suddenly too big to hold onto (so large no body part is capable of being grasped by the former grabber)
  
• To small to hold onto, possibly even to the point of being able to slip between tightly clenched fingers if small enough
  
• Just turning into a wraith and walking away
  
• Depending on the way the Duplication is defined, the grabber may still be holding the original, be holding one arm each of two identical people, or whatever. In any case, there are a lot of circumstances where he'd no longer have his target 'grabbed', as defined by the rules, if the target simply turns on her Duplication
  
• The target changes into something very large (t-rex), very small (flea), offensive (porcupine, electric eel), or whatever. The grab is going to be broken.
  

 

Sorry, zornwil, but I have to flatly disagree with your blanket statement about a straight, hands-on grab not being able to be broken through the activation of a body-affecting Power.

 

Desolid, quite right, but then that is what the power specifically does, but if Hulk has Hank Pym by the wrist when he tried to turn into Giant Man, I'd let him at least have a crack at throwing him or twisting him up as he grows, or even make Hank take damage to the wrist becasue even his growth can't break the Hulk's adamantine grip. Hulk may not be big enough to hold on to several limbs any more, but that doesn't mean he has to let go...

 

Similarly turning into a porcupine if Defender has hold of you (in his armour) may avail you little.

 

Turn into a flea and I can still close my hand around you, duplicate and I may have all kinds of new problems but it shouldn't break my hold on the original.

 

I would agree that a power activation could warrant a new breakout attempt, possibly at a substantial bonus (which I'd relate to the active points of the power, probably), but I agree with zornwil - the grab should not be automatically escaped (except, as conceded, by desolid, or maybe teleport).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Similarly turning into a porcupine if Defender has hold of you (in his armour) may avail you little.

Sean, you'll note that I specifically said with the proper SFX. Obviously, that would be a case where it wasn't the proper SFX.

 

Sheesh.

 

 

And my whole point was not that such things would always grant a free breakout, but that I thought zornwil's flat, "no exceptions" wording was wrong.

 

RTFP.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Sean' date=' you'll note that I specifically said with the proper [i']SFX[/i]. Obviously, that would be a case where it wasn't the proper SFX.

 

Sheesh.

 

 

And my whole point was not that such things would always grant a free breakout, but that I thought zornwil's flat, "no exceptions" wording was wrong.

 

RTFP.

 

Fair enough but even if Defender was not in armour he could still hold onto the porcupine. Might hurt if the spines are built as a damage shield, but it is not an automatic let-go.

 

I still believe that the base state should be that the application of a power should not change the fact that the target is grabbed* (no 'automatic breakout'). If you meant 'automatic breakout attempt' we are on the same page.

 

*unless that application moves the target away like a teleport or changes its state like a desolid.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I still believe that the base state should be that the application of a power should not change the fact that the target is grabbed* (no 'automatic breakout'). If you meant 'automatic breakout attempt' we are on the same page.

 

*unless that application moves the target away like a teleport or changes its state like a desolid.

No, we're not on the same page, obviously.

 

Using Growth as an example, if the grabbed character uses enough Growth to become so large the grabber can't even manage to bear-hug something like the grabbed character's little finger, because the grabber's arms won't reach far enough to be able to encircle the little finger, then I don't care if the Grower started off grabbed or not...they're no longer grabbed if there is no way for the grabber to maintain a hold on them.

 

The fact that I can think of one such situation that could come up invalidates zornwil's claim, and yours, too.

 

And even things like Desolid aren't a 'given' to get away in every situation...if the grabber has purchased Affects Desolid for their STR, they can continue to hold onto (and damage) the person they grabbed. But since that's not always the case, a flat statement like zonrwil's doesn't hold up.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

No' date=' we're [b']not[/b] on the same page, obviously.

 

Using Growth as an example, if the grabbed character uses enough Growth to become so large the grabber can't even manage to bear-hug something like the grabbed character's little finger, because the grabber's arms won't reach far enough to be able to encircle the little finger, then I don't care if the Grower started off grabbed or not...they're no longer grabbed if there is no way for the grabber to maintain a hold on them.

 

The fact that I can think of one such situation that could come up invalidates zornwil's claim, and yours, too.

 

And even things like Desolid aren't a 'given' to get away in every situation...if the grabber has purchased Affects Desolid for their STR, they can continue to hold onto (and damage) the person they grabbed. But since that's not always the case, a flat statement like zonrwil's doesn't hold up.

 

Are you not assuming that growth trumps strength though? You are preferring one sfx over another - what if someone with growth wakes up in a small box, and tries to break out by activating their growth - fine if it is made of wood, useless if it is made of Throbmoanium .

 

I'd allow the grower to apply their full growth strength and if that did not work then they would stay small and take damage based on the same strength they tried to apply to break out. I'd do it exactly the same way if someone tried to break out of a grab using strength: if I have them round the throat and they try to grow but STILL can't break my grip, they are just damaging themselves for me

 

I do appreciate that affects desolid on strength will allow you to keep a hold on a desolid character, but I'm pretty sure the point is that you paid for the ability specifically. What we are talking about here is getting a bonus from sfx, and I'm not adverse to the idea, subject to appropriate balance. I'm not, no matter what the book suggests, going to assume that one sfx trumps another though.

 

I mean take the one that started all this: stretching. Assuming it is Mr Fantastic stretching, and he has not been bought with a version of desolid, then he becomes rubbery and maleable and my arm lock is now useless. Doesn't mean he automatically gets away in my book - now he is squishy, I can just take a handful of face and hold on that way - no bones stopping me getting a good grip.

 

I am not arguing for the complete repression of in game effects for sfx, I promise, just that we don't get all over excited and assume that there is anything automatic about sfx 'trumping' mechanics.