By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

**sigh**"You must spread Rep before giving to Incredibl" - Props for continuing to reply tactfully, Incredible, and for what sounds like a great game.

 

I assumed that you chumped out Gravitar's brains and/or handed the PCs a lot of lucky breaks to have her hang around in the target zone' date=' blind, for as long as they needed to repeatedly pound on her with a lot of cheesed-out attacks.[/quote']

 

Well, you know what they say about "***_u_ming"... Actually, based on your posts on these threads, anyone could be forgiven for assuming you DESIGNED Gravitar.

 

I think Incredibl's scenraio sounds way more consistent with the source material than "I am Gravitar - mightiest of the mighty! You shall feel my wrath after I flee from you because I am at a momentary disadvantage!"

 

(I mean' date=' you'd think somebody suddenly realizing they were blind in the middle of a major metahuman ambush would, o, Dive for Cover?)[/quote']

 

"Gravitar performs a leap of incredible grace, landing prone in front of a parked cab. Maybe if she could see, she would have been better able to locate some cover." Does she have a photoraphic memory, that a perfect image of the battlefield, in 360 degrees and three dimensions, is etched on her brain (mapped out in hexes) after she's been blinded?

 

> We can argue what diasadvantages mean all day. As a GM, if a PC tried

> to tell me his moderate overconfidence allowed him to withdraw from a

> fight

 

... temporarily, for the purpose of waiting for a Flash to time out a few Segments later...

 

hmmm...which one sounds overconfident?

 

(a) "Puny ants! I am Gravitar - fear my devestating ability to flee!"

 

( "Puny ants! I am Gravitar - I don't need to see you to destroy you!"

 

By your 'logic'' date=' Gravitar shouldn't attack Mentalla first when she fights Eurostar -- why should the mighty Gravitar make it such a high priority to attack one insignificant mentalist? She's Overconfident![/quote']

 

"You have proven capable of causing me slight pain - you shall be the first to be destroyed. They I shall slay yuor ineffectial colleagues." Sounds OK to me. And Gravitar has been hit by Mentalla before, so she now KNOWS Mentalla is a potentially serious threat.

 

Deliberately eschewing stealth and prep time' date=' never hiring any help, or picking fights with entire governments 'isn't much of a problem'?[/quote']

 

How many Champions characters hire help? If it's the same for everyone, it's not much of a disadvantage. What stealth capabilities does Gravitar have? To hear you describe her, as soon as she's in costume that Force Field (visible to three sense groups) goes up, and she's never on the ground so her flight (also visible to three sense groups) is always active.

 

A Moderate disadvantage isn't supposed to get you killed' date='[/quote']

 

2x BOD from [rare attack] is worth 10 points and can easily be fatal. Try 3d6 Unluck on for size at 15 points.

 

The behavior I am scripting for Gravitar /would/ be Total Overconfidence' date=' on almost any other character. It's only Moderate for her because she actually is capable of surviving it on most days. Most other people, they wouldn't be.[/quote']

 

"I shall flee and return when I am not at a disadvantage" is considered nigh on total overconfidence in your games, is it?

 

PS -- KS: Superhuman World allows you to get the same kind of detailed info that KS: Superheroes would' date=' at -1 or -2, so Gravitar still had a fair shot. But you didn't even bother rolling, did you?[/quote']

 

I think it's been made fairly clear that these characters are not known. If a character in my game has KS: Linguist at 17-, it doesn't mean he can "be familiar" with the language of a being who just arrived here from the 7th dimension, the first being from that dimension ever to be perceived in the 3rd Dimension. Nor can a 1930's Pulp character make his KS; Medicine skill, and realize how to perform a heart transplant. IOW, KS doesn't help you if the knowledge isn't actually out there.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Props for continuing to reply tactfully, [snip]

 

'Whiny powergamer' is tactful? I have been careful to avoid personally insulting his moral character or intelligence. He hasn't given me the same privilege. And you congratulate *him* for tact? Sheesh.

 

> "Gravitar performs a leap of incredible grace, landing prone in front of a

> parked cab. Maybe if she could see, she would have been better able to

> locate some cover." Does she have a photoraphic memory, that a perfect

> image of the battlefield, in 360 degrees and three dimensions, is etched on

> her brain (mapped out in hexes) after she's been blinded?

 

Why in the name of the hundred little gods is Gravitar trying to find cover *on the ground*? For her, 'cover' is called 'opening up the Range Penalty to where they're missing me more than half the time!' She's a flying energy blaster -- I keep having the woman dodge *up* for a reason, after all.

 

Dive For Cover works if you simply get the heck out of the hex you're currently standing in, even if you only jumped into another empty hex. (Only exception: if you're being hit with an Area Effect attack, then your Half Move must be able to carry you outside the AoE.) She didn't have to jump behind a piece of cover so flimsy that it couldn't stop super attacks anyway, and neither did she need 'photographic memory and a 3-d battle map'. Unless they were fighting underground, or at the bottom of a canyon, or somewhere else I didn't hear mentioned, pretty much the entire sky hemisphere was open, yes?

 

> hmmm...which one sounds overconfident?

 

> (a) "Puny ants! I am Gravitar - fear my devestating ability to flee!"

 

> ( "Puny ants! I am Gravitar - I don't need to see you to destroy you!"

 

Then why did you list c) "Puny ants! Excuse me while I hide behind this taxicab!"?

 

[snip]

> How many Champions characters hire help?

 

Master villains? Gravitar is almost unique among them for *not* having minions.

 

> If it's the same for everyone, it's not much of a disadvantage. What

> stealth capabilities does Gravitar have?

 

A holographic invisibility belt from ARGENT or Mirage -- something she could easily afford, and yet has deliberately chosen not to buy.

 

Remember, the woman can afford any Foci she wants and that is available in the criminal underworld. Including Mental Defense, Power Defense, and Flash Defense. She still refuses to get any. Now *that's* Overconfident (Moderate).

 

She's really paying for that disad just as she is. Having it also mandate that she stand around and play pinata for newbies is going too far, IMO.

 

[snip]

> "I shall flee and return when I am not at a disadvantage" is considered nigh

> on total overconfidence in your games, is it?

 

Strong *or* Total, yes. Those are the only levels of the disad that mandate irrational actions. Moderate does not. (addition -- I would also rule that Moderate would require that you not leave the *scene*... i.e., that you do not yield the field to the enemy without them clearly defeating you first. However, temporarily falling back some to take a Recovery is not 'yielding the field', it's merely a stop to catch your breath. Leaving the field, in this context, would mean departing the battle map.)

 

And why do you all keep going 'I shall flee!' when what I am saying is more on the order of 'Excuse me while I go take a few Segments of Recovery somewhere other than the Designated Kill Zone.'

 

[snip]

> I think it's been made fairly clear that these characters are not known.

 

Which means they get *one* free volley, at *best*. (After all, if I'm suddenly surrounded in an ambush by over eight people whose power levels I have no idea of, it would take irrational levels of Overconfidence for me not to worry a little about *that*...)

 

After that one lands... please check me if I'm wrong, but didn't their beatdown of her require at least two free volleys?

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Props for continuing to reply tactfully' date=' [snip']

 

'Whiny powergamer' is tactful? I have been careful to avoid personally insulting his moral character or intelligence. He hasn't given me the same privilege. And you congratulate *him* for tact? Sheesh.

 

> "Gravitar performs a leap of incredible grace, landing prone in front of a

> parked cab. Maybe if she could see, she would have been better able to

> locate some cover." Does she have a photoraphic memory, that a perfect

> image of the battlefield, in 360 degrees and three dimensions, is etched on

> her brain (mapped out in hexes) after she's been blinded?

 

Why in the name of the hundred little gods is Gravitar trying to find cover *on the ground*? For her, 'cover' is called 'opening up the Range Penalty to where they're missing me more than half the time!' She's a flying energy blaster -- I keep having the woman dodge *up* for a reason, after all.

 

Dive For Cover works if you simply get the heck out of the hex you're currently standing in, even if you only jumped into another empty hex. (Only exception: if you're being hit with an Area Effect attack, then your Half Move must be able to carry you outside the AoE.) She didn't have to jump behind a piece of cover so flimsy that it couldn't stop super attacks anyway, and neither did she need 'photographic memory and a 3-d battle map'. Unless they were fighting underground, or at the bottom of a canyon, or somewhere else I didn't hear mentioned, pretty much the entire sky hemisphere was open, yes?

 

> hmmm...which one sounds overconfident?

 

> (a) "Puny ants! I am Gravitar - fear my devestating ability to flee!"

 

> ( "Puny ants! I am Gravitar - I don't need to see you to destroy you!"

 

Then why did you list c) "Puny ants! Excuse me while I hide behind this taxicab!"?

 

[snip]

> How many Champions characters hire help?

 

Master villains? Gravitar is almost unique among them for *not* having minions.

 

> If it's the same for everyone, it's not much of a disadvantage. What

> stealth capabilities does Gravitar have?

 

A holographic invisibility belt from ARGENT or Mirage -- something she could easily afford, and yet has deliberately chosen not to buy.

 

Remember, the woman can afford any Foci she wants and that is available in the criminal underworld. Including Mental Defense, Power Defense, and Flash Defense. She still refuses to get any. Now *that's* Overconfident (Moderate).

 

She's really paying for that disad just as she is. Having it also mandate that she stand around and play pinata for newbies is going too far, IMO.

 

[snip]

> "I shall flee and return when I am not at a disadvantage" is considered nigh

> on total overconfidence in your games, is it?

 

Strong *or* Total, yes. Those are the only levels of the disad that mandate irrational actions. Moderate does not.

 

And why do you all keep going 'I shall flee!' when what I am saying is more on the order of 'Excuse me while I go take a few Segments of Recovery somewhere other than the Designated Kill Zone.'

 

[snip]

> I think it's been made fairly clear that these characters are not known.

 

Which means they get *one* free volley, at *best*. (After all, if I'm suddenly surrounded in an ambush by over eight people whose power levels I have no idea of, it would take irrational levels of Overconfidence for me not to worry a little about *that*...)

 

After that one lands... please check me if I'm wrong, but didn't their beatdown of her require at least two free volleys?

Why don't you accept the fact that you don't know enough to be this critical? None of your conclusions are solid because you are assuming a whole lot of things out of context.

 

Incredibl doesn't need to write down exhaustive notes about his adventures just so he can justify how things turned out to you before he brings them up as his experiences.

 

And, btw, what you are doing is very much a personal attack. You should back off.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Why don't you accept the fact that you don't know enough to be this critical?

 

Because I do. Here are my contentions:

 

* Gravitar was surprised by the PCs because she was used like a wandering monster -- there they were, coming in on a scene where Gravitar is smashing an IHA office. This is the DM's script... the PCs have, so far, not done a single thing to arrange for Gravitar's presence there under terms where it's possible to surround her unawares, it's being handed to them from the getgo.

 

* Their sneaking up on Gravitar required no effort beyond 'I declare that we sneak up on Gravitar!' and 'I roll my Stealth!'. Which means that their sneaking up on her is not due to their brilliant role-play, but their roll-play.

 

Edit -- or to put it another way, the PCs shouldn't get major congratulations just from being smart enough to avoid charging blindly at a vastly more powerful foe. Sure, it's a good thing when PCs do that, but it's like congratulating a bus driver for not crashing... this is just him doing his job, he shouldn't get a parade. So again, I don't grasp where they were especially clever here or anything.

 

* The tactics of 'surround an enemy who is oblivious to you, then Flash them, then unload full-auto' is neither brilliance nor cleverness, it's merely a minimum basic level of gamer competence, and shouldn't be acknowledged as anything greater than this

 

* Gravitar's Overconfidence does not require her to be entirely incapable of realizing when it's time to leave the hex marked 'Focal Point Of An Ambush' and go take a Recovery or two in a slightly more distant location.

 

* All of the above, added up, means 'that fight where Gravitar went down? only worked because the DM was generous with the setup and Gravitar was played dumber than she is'.

 

What 'context' is there that makes any of the above not true?

 

[snip]

> And, btw, what you are doing is very much a personal attack. You should

> back off.

 

The notion that disagreeing with someone's argument is a "personal attack" is wrong, foolish, and entirely misses the point of having a debate thread in the first place. Otherwise, I could claim that this entire board has been 'personally attacking' me from the day I first showed up... which is obviously silly.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Gravitar never comes anywhere near New York cabbies. She has drivers who take her from place to place in sound-proofed limousines' date=' and bodyguards who clear the way for her.[/quote']

 

Excellent point. Somebody of her wealth level can pretty much live in a bubble, if they want to.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Why don't you accept the fact that you don't know enough to be this critical?

 

Because I do. Here are my contentions:

 

* Gravitar was surprised by the PCs because she was used like a wandering monster -- there they were, coming in on a scene where Gravitar is smashing an IHA office. This is the DM's script... the PCs have, so far, not done a single thing to arrange for Gravitar's presence there under terms where it's possible to surround her unawares, it's being handed to them from the getgo.

 

* Their sneaking up on Gravitar required no effort beyond 'I declare that we sneak up on Gravitar!' and 'I roll my Stealth!'. Which means that their sneaking up on her is not due to their brilliant role-play, but their roll-play.

 

Edit -- or to put it another way, the PCs shouldn't get major congratulations just from being smart enough to avoid charging blindly at a vastly more powerful foe. Sure, it's a good thing when PCs do that, but it's like congratulating a bus driver for not crashing... this is just him doing his job, he shouldn't get a parade. So again, I don't grasp where they were especially clever here or anything.

 

* The tactics of 'surround an enemy who is oblivious to you, then Flash them, then unload full-auto' is neither brilliance nor cleverness, it's merely a minimum basic level of gamer competence, and shouldn't be acknowledged as anything greater than this

 

* Gravitar's Overconfidence does not require her to be entirely incapable of realizing when it's time to leave the hex marked 'Focal Point Of An Ambush' and go take a Recovery or two in a slightly more distant location.

 

* All of the above, added up, means 'that fight where Gravitar went down? only worked because the DM was generous with the setup and Gravitar was played dumber than she is'.

 

What 'context' is there that makes any of the above not true?

 

[snip]

> And, btw, what you are doing is very much a personal attack. You should

> back off.

 

The notion that disagreeing with someone's argument is a "personal attack" is wrong, foolish, and entirely misses the point of having a debate thread in the first place. Otherwise, I could claim that this entire board has been 'personally attacking' me from the day I first showed up... which is obviously silly.

I'd say badgering someone and claiming you know more about how their game works than they do and trashing their players is a personal attack.

 

tr.v. badg·ered, badg·er·ing, badg·ers

To harass or pester persistently.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

As near as I can figure this, it seems to be a 'personal attack' for me to keep talking past the point that *you* (or anyone else) are interested in hearing it, regardless of what *I* feel.

 

That is tantamount to handing you editorial control over my posting.

 

And if you want to do that, then hire me as your full-time assistant editor. Doing so will require offering a competitive salary, plus a generous surcharge for overtime (as it would obviously apply for the entire time I spend online, not just normal working hours), plus full benefits. Oh, and can you throw in a dental plan? I haven't had one in years.

 

(add) If my mere existence truly causes you such pain, then put me back on your Ignore List. That's what it's there for. But don't even bother asking me to act like your convenience here or your desires re: content trump my own, because you have no right to. Other people (read: admins) have that right, but you do not.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

As near as I can figure this, it seems to be a 'personal attack' for me to keep talking past the point that *you* (or anyone else) are interested in hearing it, regardless of what *I* feel.

 

That is tantamount to handing you editorial control over my posting.

 

And if you want to do that, then hire me as your full-time assistant editor. Doing so will require offering a competitive salary, plus a generous surcharge for overtime (as it would obviously apply for the entire time I spend online, not just normal working hours), plus full benefits. Oh, and can you throw in a dental plan? I haven't had one in years.

 

(add) If my mere existence truly causes you such pain, then put me back on your Ignore List. But don't even bother asking me to act like your convenience here or your desires re: content trump my own, because you have no right to. Other people (read: admins) have that right, but you do not.

I'm just trying to candidly point out to you how your behavior is being perceived by others. Read back through these posts and you might pick up that others are hinting at what I've said outright.

 

I can't stop you from badgering someone but I can point it out. Frankly, I think I'm doing you a favor. Not as much of one as if I'd PM'd you but I really don't think you deserve the benefit of that on this thread.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

And I am pointing out to *you* that while you might think you are doing me a favor, you are in fact doing no one a favor, and coming across as patronizing to boot. You also might want to lecture the guy who threw around flames like 'whiny' and 'powergamer' about manners next time, as opposed to lecturing the guy who didn't.

 

I am well aware that neither you or incdrbil are finding any pleasure in hearing a detailed failure analysis of his presented scenario. I just don't believe either of you has the right to make me *stop*. If you want a forum where nobody can tell you that he thinks you messed up unless you sign a permission slip first, then get a blog.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

While discussing disadvantages...

 

How does "Overconfidence" rate a "Very Common" on someone like Gravitar anyways? How frequently will she be in a situation when acting in such a fashion will get her in serious trouble? Let's see...Dr. Destroyer...army of supers...large alien armada...yup, that's about it. She can apparently take down entire competent hero and/or villain teams on her own, waltz through agents, military, police, etc. - yeah, sounds like it affects her on a "Very Common" basis to me.

 

Seems about as reasonable as letting characters in a modern game take "Hates Orcs" as a Common or VC.

 

Maybe we could get her an "Enraged when CON Stunned" as a Very Common as well?

 

IMO, the "Overconfidence" on people like Gravitar, Dr. D and the like that are on the high-end of the campaign universe should be treated as an "Uncommon" + severity.

 

*Note - I don't care how things are actually written on her sheet - I'm saying that it's bogus to assign those levels for many campaigns. If her normal encounter is going to be the JLA after a recruiting drive - sure. If her normal encounter is going to be the CU Champions or other under 500pt groups of heroes, then no.*

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> How does "Overconfidence" rate a "Very Common" on someone like Gravitar

> anyways? How frequently will she be in a situation when acting in such a

> fashion will get her in serious trouble?

 

Given that it's her Overconfidence disad that prevents her from hiring minions, building up a villainous organization, forming the Injustice Gang, or buying technologically-based Mental Defense / Power Defense / Flash Defense to cover the holes in her powers...

 

... it is not a snarky answer to say "all the time". Which is 'Very Common', natch.

 

Her Overconfidence is why she is doomed to never have any hope of actually succeeding in her goals of world conquest, because her methods of 'pick lots of solo fights' will never actually put her into the position of Queen of the World. To conquer the world takes more than just being a mondo powerful super, unless by 'mondo powerful', you mean 'The Infinite Man'. It takes large-scale organization, it takes an army, it takes the ability to put into motion grand events and have them keep grand eventing even while you're asleep in the Royal Bedroom.

 

And yet, until she buys off this psych lim, she won't ever admit to herself that she needs to change her plans and re-evaluate her potential a little more realistically. Even if -- or perhaps *especially* if -- she keeps winning those fights.

 

Her disad doesn't have to get her killed, or even beat up a lot. (Especially since it's only Moderate, not Strong or Total). It *does* do a very consistent job of having her self-sabotage her long-term goals, and as such, it's worth the 15 points, IMO.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

BTW, I won't know for sure until I get home from work and get my CKC out, but if I remember correctly, Doctor Destroyer does not actually have the Overconfidence disadvantage. He has quite a few other psych lims, all of which feed into his general megalomania, but while his goals and dreams are cosmically grandiose, he is allowed to have a great deal of realistic cunning in how he attempts to *achieve* those grandiose goals. Unlike Gravitar, who while she is not incompetent tactically, has all the strategic sense of a retarded gerbil.

 

(This may seem inconsistent with prior arguments of mine, but really, it's not. You can be more than competent at the small-unit tactics level while still having absolutely no idea how to effectively formulate a grand manipulative plan of world conquest. And God knows, she doesn't. This is why she is actually my /least/ favorite villain of the CU's "Big Six".

 

It's just, I can't stand unjustifiably underrating even a villain I hate, let alone one I like.)

[shadow_walker]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

My PC's fought her ealry on' date=' and beat her handily. If you have a smidgeon of a plan (or flash attacks or a good mentalist) Gravitar falls hard.[/quote']

 

Damn straight.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

If you can't make an argument without personal attacks, ask yourself why.

 

Let's see..who started off labeling someones play as imbecilic? If you talk to me in a rude manner, you don't get Mary Poppins.

 

I just don't believe that how you described her being beaten qualifies as brilliant play vs. a competent antagonist. It looked more like 'gang beatdown on a villain the DM was having job'.

 

And you decided that before actually knowing anything about the scenario, looking back on our discussion now, I don't see any major problem or fault with my call in her actions. To my appearance, you simply refuse to admit that I had a valid reason for my actions--other than the insulting references that you've made about imbecilic play, a stupid scenario and so on.

 

 

'Some' advantages? Short of finding her asleep, unconscious, or dead, I can't think of an advantage they *didn't* have.

 

They had the advantage of some information about her, time to make a plan and suprise. They were fortunate that they were not a known, recognized team. And, they were fotunate she was overconfident enough to not flee during the first two phases of a combat before she went enraged (and thats where things did go downhill for her). If she had not been enraged, she would have pulled back to the safe distance, and used her powers in mnay ways to make the heroes do other things than attack her. I was fully aware the players could have been soundly trounced.

 

 

Hardly, and given that I've said 'and this is why I would never use Gravitar as an opponent for PCs of that power level' at least twice already, you're being incredibly rude here in even claiming this

.

 

I'm only responding to the insulting tone you've had this entire time. I tend to return what is given. So you wouldn't use her. Your call. I gave the Pc's an edge, looked at her, and her powers. I wasn't sure they could win; I knew they could easily lose. There was a possibility of victory, and their actiions led to it--assisted by her properly played disadvantages. Their is no set definiton of what Overconfidence will or won't make a character do. If she had not went enraged, by about phase 3, I would have ruled that the current situation was enough that she could withdraw or take more sound tactical actions. However, her rationality had punched out for a lunch break at that time.

 

Because, you know, you're simply not listening to a damn thing I say, and repeatedly making claims that I would do or believe or act like such when I have specifically announced the exact opposite.

 

Hello pot.

 

What you seem to regard as some act of brilliance, I consider the minimum basic competence to qualify for the category of 'not a total beginner'.

 

I had one player with prior Hero system experience. The others were role players, but had not done super-heroic roleplaying before. But you know...if you had bothered to ask about the group before flying off on your rant....

 

And none of it would have been possible if you hadn't given them the freebie of 'go ahead, set up yourselves up however you want, she has no idea you even exist'.

 

Hmm, I guess paying for stealth skills, invisibility, or desolid, then using them in conjucntion with a diversion is a freebie.

 

If I had my players just happen to walk across the Evil Overlord while he was standing there with his back turned, and gave them time to not only hold a planning session but then set themselves up in multiple ambush positions all around, they'd feel cheated.

 

You were talking about straw man arguments?

 

A boss villain is not supposed to be used like a wandering monster.

Save the lecture on when I'm allowed to use NPC's in my campaign. She served for the campaign purposes at the time, and as a bonus..and I've got a guaranteed future scenario for the players.

 

 

You actually gave Gravitar PER rolls? Here, we paradoxically have you being *more* forgiving to Gravitar... because as you described the setup, I wouldn't have.

 

I decided that simply allowing an automatic suprise and success of stealth wasn't called for.

 

 

 

You want me to actually respect it as 'clever' or 'brilliant', it's got to get a lot better than that.

 

When you find me making that demand of you, or anyone, let me know.

 

Of course, this is also why I don't run games unless I have clever, experienced players. I know what my DM'ing style needs to work, and I recruit accordingly.

 

Ah, now you need to indirectly insult my players, and not just me

 

Seriously, you act like the mere act of me disagreeing with you is proof, prima facie, that I am a closed-minded whiny powergamer, to use just the insults from your most recent post.

 

Your repsonses, and the tone you took to a differing opinion suggested that. It's how you disagreed, or denying the validity of very reasonable (if not painfully obvious) explanations that reminded me of that type of player. It's not a favorable description, but it is how you came off to me.

 

God forbid that you actually treat your players with the same arrogant contempt, if *they* ever have a disagreement with you on gaming philosophy.

 

Well, if I ever have to worry about arrogant contempt, you've given me a fine example to check myself against.

 

5th Edition Revised. A Moderate disadvantage specifically does *NOT* require irrationally risky responses to a situation

 

And her response, based on her limited information, wasn't implauisble, or out of bounds for the disadvantage.

 

We are talking about Psych Lims (both 15-point and in general) here, and what 'Moderate', 'Severe', and 'Total Commitment' means in regards to them. Enraged is an entirely separate disad.

 

Good for you, you can read. You just miss the point. A disadvantage, regardless of severity, can have a major impact in certain situations. Actually, the impact of the overconfidence was minor--she hung around one or two phases instead of an immediate retreat. What Was the severe handicap was the enraged disadvantage kicking in. It was for Gravitar, an unfortunate combination. It could have been merely a momentary problem if she hadn't went enraged.

 

Having reviewed all the relevant rules and precedents in 5e revised that I know of, I still see no reason to agree that a Moderate Psych Lim should require a character to be 100% incapable of recognizing when it's time to fall back and take a Recovery, prepatory to a triumphant counterattack towards the end of the Turn. If you want to dispute that, please find something other than what you've already argued.

 

I'll repeat it, though you aren't going to listen. She wasn't compeletely disabled. It influenced her decision, based on what she knew about her powers, and what she thought she was facing into making a mistake not to immediately flee or withdraw. The events of the later phases would have freed her from that disadvantage, but another disadvantage was then in effect.

 

> By that logic, a major disadvantage should almost always result in defeat.

 

These are the rules on severity of Psychological Limitations.

 

and they are not concrete in laying out every possibel type of reaction, and you've not come close to somehow proving her hesitation was inappropriate--except through hindsight that she ultimately lost.

 

Compare them to the chart I wrote for Overconfidence, in my prior post. Pretty much nailed it, didn't I?

Your chart was your interpretation of a few specifics circumstances in which you think overconfidence could affect a character. There are all sorts of situations, and unique effects, which call for judgement calls and in this case flee or thrash the fools she beleived she could handle. (Your belief in the many easy ways she could take out the PC's is a nice example of overconfidence in action. Gravitar, lose to a ragtag group of nobodies?)

 

But they do *NOT* take it to *irrational* heights (such as, oh, being unable to notice when their STUN counter is rapidly heading towards the basement,

 

which wasnt a factor in this situation...

 

or refusing to take a Dive for Cover action even after it's getting obvious that the next volley is going to put them down for the count).

 

aand again.....doesnt apply here. The volleys putting her down for the count were against an enraged character.

 

You dont agree with my call--hey thats fine. Referring to my play as imbecilic, insulting my players, referring to their collection of cheesy attacks, as you called it was uncalled for.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Before we go on to argue the scenario, we first have to correct a very basic, and overemotional, misapprehension on your part.

 

> Let's see..who started off labeling someones play as imbecilic?

 

No one.

 

I did *not* say 'incrdbil is an imbecile', or even 'incrdrbil plays like an imbecile'. I said 'incridbil ran Gravitar as if *she* was an imbecile'.

 

If you're going to take /that/ personally, then really, you are overreacting vastly. 'You ran such-and-such NPC like they were an idiot' is nowhere near the same thing as saying 'You are an idiot'.

 

[snip]

> To my appearance, you simply refuse to admit that I had a valid reason for

> my actions--other than the insulting references that you've made about

> imbecilic play, a stupid scenario and so on.

 

You are *still* arguing against things I have never said, to the point where I honestly wonder if you're hearing things.

 

Let me repeat: I have never called you an imbecile. I have called your version of Gravitar an imbecile, or, more precisely, I said that you portrayed her as an imbecile when nothing in her writeup justifies casting her as one. (add -- and I have said that your well-written scenario was actually, you know, not so well-written, and your PCs' brilliant and clever play was actually just averagely competent play. But again, these are hardly insults o' doom.)

 

If you're going to claim that that is a personal attack on you, then that's just ridiculous.

 

Now take a deep breath, calm down, and stop venting outrage and wrath over insults that exist only in your imagination. We have wasted most of this day and a good chunk of yesterday because you chose to blow a gasket over something that was never actually said.

 

Come to think of it, you've gotten upset over a *lot* of things I never actually said.

 

Now get back to arguing against what I'm saying, not what you imagine I'm saying.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

As for some of the points you listed in your attempted defense:

 

* New data from you -- Gravitar had two Phases /before/ they triggered her Enraged. Presumably, since they did not spend all both of those Phases missing her repeatedly, she was already taking damage /before/ her Enraged popped.

 

Which means my point about you underrating her brains is entirely valid... even with zero knowledge about their PCs beforehand, she still had every chance to know that they were capable of delivering a significant amount of damage that bypassed her defenses. Because she was actually taking that damage.

 

By the second Phase of this, any villain short of the most irrational variety should have figured out that they should get off the spot marked 'X'.

 

* I am still unclear on whether they hit her Enraged trigger by accident, or because they knew about it and deliberately played on it. If the latter, then that does legitimately count as a clever bit of play. If the former, then, well, 'we got lucky' isn't exactly a testimony to tactical brilliance. Which one was it?

 

* Your argument against the difference between Moderate, Strong, and Total Overconfidence... is not much of an argument. AAMOF, it seems to boil down solely to 'Well I'm not convinced!' And hey, all right, you're not convinced. OTOH, *I'm* not convinced of *your* POV either, so how do propose we resolve this impasse?

 

Your point that 'there is no set definition of what Overconfidence will or will not make a character do' is incorrect -- there actually *is* one, and it's in Champions genre book. Likewise, the severity levels of Psych Lims are in the 5e Revised core book. To the best of my knowledge and ability to parse language, they agree much more closely with my interpretations than with yours. If you disagree, please do me the courtesy of explaining that disagreement in more detail than a simple 'Well that's not how *I* do it.'

 

* You still have said nothing that contradicts my point about how many freebie opportunities you gave your PCs... opportunities that most groups fighting Gravitar wouldn't normally get, and opportunities they didn't earn through efforts of their own. They knew all that they needed to know about Gravitar, /and/ she knew nothing about them, /and/ she had her back turned when they arrived, /and/ she was wholly occupied with other matters all the while they were busy setting themselves up as they saw fit. Setting up a scene like this is the DM equivalent of putting parsley behind the villain's ears, stuffing an apple in their mouth, and ringing a dinner bell.

 

* Your original contention -- the one that prompted my dissent in the first place -- was that 'any group with half a plan or a good mentalist can drop Gravitar'. You might want to change that to 'any group with half a plan, a good mentalist, one-sided prep time in their favor, a clear shot at her unsuspecting back (sp), Gravitar having no clue who they are or what they can do, and Gravitar having enough of a blonde day to deliberately remain in the kill sack even when it's more than past time for her to be leaving it can drop Gravitar', as it would be more accurate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Props for continuing to reply tactfully' date=' [snip']

 

It's all relative. If you started out referring to me as "imbecilic", I suspect I would have had a far harsher description.

 

'Whiny powergamer' is tactful? I have been careful to avoid personally insulting his moral character or intelligence.

 

"Imbecilic" is generally used to describe a person of well under standard inelligence, is it not? [And you DO sound like a whiny powergamer, plus a hole lot more]

 

Why in the name of the hundred little gods is Gravitar trying to find cover *on the ground*? For her' date=' 'cover' is called 'opening up the Range Penalty to where they're missing me more than half the time!' She's a flying energy blaster -- I keep having the woman dodge *up* for a reason, after all.[/quote']

 

While a "dive for cover" could certainly include "up", we now get into the issue of making that DEX roll at what, -1 per hex? If you aree referring to "at her phase, flying straight up", say so. [Now if Gravitar made this a standard tactic in my campaign , the military and/or her Hunteds would scramble fighter jets with heavy ordinance every time she appeared - if she's high enough up to be safely targetted, and she's blind to boot, that will be the end of that. Too bad she's got enough natural defenses to survive impact with the ground (military men and CvK don't tend to go hand in hand). The hard part, if course, is scrambling those jets fast enough in a supers situation.

 

Dive For Cover works if you simply get the heck out of the hex you're currently standing in' date=' even if you only jumped into another empty hex. (Only exception: if you're being hit with an Area Effect attack, then your Half Move must be able to carry you outside the AoE.)[/quote]

 

Great - now she's aborted her next phase and is lying prone in the next hex. And that assumes she managed to perceive an attack was just about to be launched at her at the right time to dive for cover and evade it - while blinded!

 

Then why did you list c) "Puny ants! Excuse me while I hide behind this taxicab!"?

 

We've already established ravitar and taxicabs don't mix, haven't we?

 

> How many Champions characters hire help?

 

Master villains? Gravitar is almost unique among them for *not* having minions.

 

> If it's the same for everyone, it's not much of a disadvantage. What

> stealth capabilities does Gravitar have?

 

A holographic invisibility belt from ARGENT or Mirage -- something she could easily afford, and yet has deliberately chosen not to buy.

 

Remember, the woman can afford any Foci she wants and that is available in the criminal underworld. Including Mental Defense, Power Defense, and Flash Defense. She still refuses to get any. Now *that's* Overconfident (Moderate).

 

She's really paying for that disad just as she is. Having it also mandate that she stand around and play pinata for newbies is going too far, IMO.

 

Champions is a point-based system. Player characters don't get to use money to hire an army of do-gooder mercenaries to back up their team. They don't get to fund R&D labs to create holographic invisibility belts, flash defense contact lenses and tinfoil hats to protect them from telepaths. Either you pay the character points, or you don't get the ability.

 

Wealth may explain why you have access to those goodies you paid points for, and Overconfidence may explain why you didn't use that Wealth to buy the goodies, but at the end of the day, you either shelled out the points for Flash Defense, Mental Defense and Followers, or you didn't. Gravitar didn't pay the character points, so her character doesn't have these abilities. I don't see not using powers you don't have because you didn't pay the points as "role playing your disadvantages", even in the slightest.

 

Refusing to believe that you could be beaten by a half dozen rookie Supers for a couple of phases - that's playing Overconfidence. Continuing to refuse to believe after they've knocked you down half your STUN in a phase or two? Now we're getting into stronger territory - but by then she was Enraged, as I understand it.

 

Strong *or* Total' date=' yes. Those are the only levels of the disad that mandate irrational actions. Moderate does not. (addition -- I would also rule that Moderate would require that you not leave the *scene*... i.e., that you do not yield the field to the enemy without them clearly defeating you first. However, temporarily falling back some to take a Recovery is not 'yielding the field', it's merely a stop to catch your breath. Leaving the field, in this context, would mean departing the battle map.)[/quote']

 

Tell me how Gravitar's overconfidence would cause her to behave differently from an otherwise identical character who had 15 points more cp and used it to buy off Overconfidence. Your games may be different. In mine, I expect disadvantages to be role played. A player who views his psych lim's as impediments to be overcome by attempting ego rolls, rather than defining facets of his personality that he doesn't WANT to overcome, is just roll playing.

 

And why do you all keep going 'I shall flee!' when what I am saying is more on the order of 'Excuse me while I go take a few Segments of Recovery somewhere other than the Designated Kill Zone.'

 

Because an overconfident character will perceive it as fleeing. "I don't need time to rest. I don't need to fall back and catch my breath. You are not powerful enough to pose a significant threat to the Mistress of the Fundamental Force."

 

And because, especially if they've now figured out her enraged, the group smartass will yell "That's right - flee with your tail between your legs after the whupping we gave you." And off goes the Enraged...

 

> I think it's been made fairly clear that these characters are not known.

 

Which means they get *one* free volley, at *best*. (After all, if I'm suddenly surrounded in an ambush by over eight people whose power levels I have no idea of, it would take irrational levels of Overconfidence for me not to worry a little about *that*...)

 

To the overconfident, "power levels I have no idea of" means "power levels vastly inferior to mine". The possibility that this unknown could have power to rival mine is inconceivable. [True "strong" overconfident is the Brick in my game who says "DCV 3 - my DEX is 23, but this loser can't really hurt me, so why waste effort dodging?]

 

After that one lands... please check me if I'm wrong' date=' but didn't their beatdown of her require at least two free volleys?[/quote']

 

The second of which took place after Gravitar was enraged.

 

To me, Gravitar is a classic comic book icon. An incredibly powerful villain who suffers from personality issues which, if trampled properly, will cause her to more or less defeat herself. And that's what happened here - her Overconfidence caused her to stand in the open and take an initial hit, and her Enraged kept her around when her Overconfidence might have been deflated.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Let's see..who started off labeling someones play as imbecilic?

 

No one.

 

I did *not* say 'incrdbil is an imbecile', or even 'incrdrbil plays like an imbecile'. I said 'incridbil ran Gravitar as if *she* was an imbecile'.

 

If you're going to take /that/ personally, then really, you are overreacting vastly. 'You ran such-and-such NPC like they were an idiot' is nowhere near the same thing as saying 'You are an idiot'.

 

OK, I have to admit Chuck has a point here. That would be almost as dumb as taking a statement like "You sound like a whiny power gamer" to imply that "You are a whiny wargamer". After all, it just said you SOUND LIKE one, not that you ARE one.

[CBikle]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I dunno... ChuckG seems to have very, very strong opinions on how Gravitar should be played.

 

Can't wait for the fan-fic.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

* New data from you -- Gravitar had two Phases /before/ they triggered her Enraged. Presumably' date=' since they did not spend all both of those Phases missing her repeatedly, she was already taking damage /before/ her Enraged popped.[/quote']

 

So do all of your NPC's flee the field as soon as they take some STUN, or only the ones with high movement rates?

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

So do all of your NPC's flee the field as soon as they take some STUN' date=' or only the ones with high movement rates?[/quote']

 

If I have an NPC who is blinded, alone, surrounded by enemies, and taking non-trivial amounts of STUN past their defenses every Segment, then yes, it would be a rare thing for that NPC /not/ to be falling back to where they were taking less fire and doing a Recovery or two. (add -- of course, this assumes that said NPC /can/. Many NPCs don't have sufficient Movement to disengage at will vs. an entire party of PCs.) Some exceptions would be the NPCs who are supposed to be either terminally stupid or notably irrational under fire.

 

And btw, given that I explained this in great detail...

 

Strong *or* Total' date=' yes. Those are the only levels of the disad that mandate irrational actions. Moderate does not. (addition -- I would also rule that Moderate would require that you not leave the *scene*... i.e., that you do not yield the field to the enemy without them clearly defeating you first. However, temporarily falling back some to take a Recovery is not 'yielding the field', it's merely a stop to catch your breath. Leaving the field, in this context, would mean departing the battle map.)[/quote']

 

... your phrasing the question "flee the field" was strongly disengenuous.

[Starlord]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Props for continuing to reply tactfully' date=' Incredible, and for what sounds like a great game.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure he's been entirely tactful, but given the way he's been treated here he has handled himself better than I probably would.

 

Incrdbil, having reviewed your description of your scenario, I believe you handled the encounter well and any concessions granted to your PCs seem to be reasonable given the parameters you presented. Sounds like it was a great fight!

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I still disagree.

 

If his PCs were really *that* much of a beginner group, then it did them no good service to hand them such a gift on such a platter -- it won't prepare them any to fight a Gravitar (or any other master villain of comparable power) RP'ed with greater intelligence than incrdrbil gave her credit for. Which, if they go on to play Champions in other games, they're going to run into sooner or later. Probably sooner, as it would be hard to run a /less/ intelligent version of Gravitar than the one I heard described here.

 

I do not see the wisdom in dumbing down an 1100+ point villain for use on the bunny slopes. Novice players running starting-level characters should fight GRAB, not Gravitar. If you want to challenge them, send 'em a few Ultimates... that's an uphill fight for them, but it's not so far above their normal power curve that they have no hope of survival except by the DM gifting them with an enormously lopsided starting position.

 

(add) Also, I see no reason to retract my characterization of them as not brilliant. From every description given, they weren't. They weren't stupid -- please note, that was "were not stupid", not "were stupid" -- but they did nothing that merits any especial congratulations, or any especial admiration for clever play, and I don't see where politeness requires anyone to pretend otherwise.

 

(add) Please note, I have seen a novice Champions player survive solo combat vs. Mechanon for half a Turn... while using a 350-pt version of Seeker. And he did it on role-play, not roll-play. Furthermore, his delaying tactics were instrumental in tying Mechanon up long enough to allow the military to finish getting there and drive him away from the naval base. So I may have a different POV on the topic of 'clever play'.

 

(add again -- I told only half the story) BTW, if you're wondering what kind of insanely sick DM sends Mechanon up against someone like that solo... well, I *didn't*. It was a novice group, and I'd given them the Champions 5e. The only difference was that the one person wanted Seeker, not Nighthawk, so we did a quick convert.

 

Mechanon, using tactics no more complicated than "stand, blast, punch, grab, throw, etc." managed to neutralize everybody but Seeker... they charged in blindly, you see. So, Seeker's player was the last man standing... he was the least threat to Mechanon, so he got shot at last. I was in the process of trying to fudge a reason for Mechanon not to kill him when his player suddenly started busting the moves out, and I watched and went 'well, at least /one/ of 'em is being brilliant today!'

[CBikle]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I'm not sure he's been entirely tactful, but given the way he's been treated here he has handled himself better than I probably would.

 

ChuckG gets treated like this because of his uncanny ability to find an adversarial position to any topic and debate it in a (perhaps unknowingly) hostile and insulting manner.

 

Personally, I love it when ChuckG gets involved in these threads and turns them into train wrecks, however, I can see where others wouldn't.

 

The only thing that would make it better would be if ChuckG pretended to be two hot lesbians whilst insulting someone else's game, game style and players.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

 

It's not my fault if somebody is able to take 'you ran Gravitar like she was an idiot!' and instead somehow manage to hear 'you are an idiot!'. I am writing in plain English, it shouldn't be that easy to misinterpret the point.