Hidden Template

[Lucius]

Sean Waters said something in another thread that got me to thinking. He described a character that was not overly powerful, but came out very expensive because, as he put it, it went "against the hidden template."

 

The phrase has a resonance for me. I think it is giving a name to something real, something that is part of the Hero System but hard to define or delineate clearly.

 

Something that might make for an interesting and possibly even fruitful discussion.

 

What is the "hidden template?" Where and how is it hidden? And how can we drag it out of hiding?

 

I have some ideas, but I want to give everyone else a chance before I broach them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Playing hide and seek with a palindromedary

[OddHat]

Re: Hidden Template

 

For myself, I'd say that:

 

1) HERO favors Bricks.

 

2) Hero favors Martial Arts.

 

3) Hero favors advantaged Hand Attacks in combination with Martial Arts to the point of being completely broken.

 

4) Hero favors Multipowers and Elemental Controls

 

5) Hero favors Multiform and Duplication to the point of being laughably broken.

 

If you want a non-metamorph non-brick with no frameworks or martial arts, your character is not going to be as point efficient in HERO.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Hidden Template

 

One of the hidden templates that is hard to do with Hero is what I call Mystery Powers.

 

Hero A has flame powers. A flame bolt, a flame shield, the ability to fly and others. This is very easy to do in Hero as long as these have well-defined effects.

 

Hero B has a set of bizarre powers which can only fit into a VPP, most of her design is trying to use this VPP correctly and takes horrible side-effects when it works wrong. (Think X-men's Rogue) It's doable, but it loses alot of its mystery aspect (unless the GM runs the VPP for the player).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hidden Template

 

..

3) Hero favors advantaged Hand Attacks in combination with Martial Arts to the point of being completely broken.

..

 

I agree with you on ever point but this one. Steve answered a couple of recent questions regarding this that indicate it is not quite as broken as it appears.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39575

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39586

 

HM

[OddHat]

Re: Hidden Template

 

I agree with you on ever point but this one. Steve answered a couple of recent questions regarding this that indicate it is not quite as broken as it appears.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39575

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39586

 

HM

 

If this is the current ruling, then the advantaged HA is no longer as broken as it appeared to be.

[zornwil]

Re: Hidden Template

 

Right, I think that it wasn't so broken before, I think Steve answered a question in a way which most, including me, thought he was approving something when he wasn't (his answer to Prestidigitator some time back just addressed how MA DCs can stack but didn't really come out and naysay what Prestidigitator was getting at, so it sounded like Steve was okay with a more aggressive stacking - now it all seems sensible again, but having reread his earlier answer I think it was just an overly-brief answer that missed perhaps what Prestidigitator's "real" question was).

[Bloodstone]

Re: Hidden Template

 

Ignoring the hand attack thing, I think HERO generally favors powers and characteristics over skills and skill levels.

[zornwil]

Re: Hidden Template

 

Ignoring the hand attack thing' date=' I think HERO generally favors powers and characteristics over skills and skill levels.[/quote']

Can you be a little more specific? To me, on the face of it, that's really more an issue of the fact that skills tend to be more powerful out of combat and less so in combat, on the whole, therefore it could seem as you state, but my impression is it's only from that combat perspective. Well, that and I would add that skills in general do tend to depend on the genre, the GM, and the campaign a lot more than the others, for related (out of combat) reasons.

[stan da ork]

Re: Hidden Template

 

A couple thoughts I have on the subject:

 

1) HERO favors Characteristics above all else, and it greatly encourages characters to spend at least one third of their total points on them. Many characters spend closer to half (or more) of their total points on Characteristics. High Characteristics make a character more effective all around, even with skills, since so many skills are Characteristic based.

 

2) Martial Manuvers are extremely efficient, to the point where any character who is allowed to take them probably should. I mean, when wouldn't you want to pay 4 points to get +2 DCV and +2 DC on every attack?

 

3) Because of the subtractive nature of defenses in HERO, one big attack tends to be better than several smaller attacks, making some Advantages very poor in games with AP caps, such as Autofire and AoE. If a character's one big attack is STR, the character gets a big boost from all the free Figured Characteristics it brings; if it's Martial Arts, the character saves lots of points to spend elsewhere.

 

4) HERO encourages characters to focus on a single mode of movement, because a character can only use one type of movement in a given Phase.

 

5) Characters are expected to buy a suite of "basics": some offense, some defense, and some movement. Characters who don't take advantage of some of these ideas will have lower values in the "basics," and will have less room for extras, like Enhanced Senses, Change Environment, etc.

 

Based on the above, I think HERO may have a hidden template. I think the hidden template is Captain America. No, not the Patriot type, but the super-trained normal type. Captain America has spent lots of points on all around high Characteristics. Captain America has Martial Arts. Captain America has a big attack (his Martial Arts or his shield could qualify). Captain America has only one mode of movement (Running). Captain America has certainly bought all the basics, and saved enough points by taking advantage of the system to afford all kinds of neat tricks with his shield as well. As far as I can tell, Captain America (and other characters built like him) is about as points-efficient as you're going to get.

[OddHat]

Re: Hidden Template

 

Based on the above, I think HERO may have a hidden template. I think the hidden template is Captain America. No, not the Patriot type, but the super-trained normal type. Captain America has spent lots of points on all around high Characteristics. Captain America has Martial Arts. Captain America has a big attack (his Martial Arts or his shield could qualify). Captain America has only one mode of movement (Running). Captain America has certainly bought all the basics, and saved enough points by taking advantage of the system to afford all kinds of neat tricks with his shield as well. As far as I can tell, Captain America (and other characters built like him) is about as points-efficient as you're going to get.

 

80% agreed. If you're not getting muchkin, the Golden Age Superman (leaping brick) and Wonder Woman (brick with some martial arts and a couple of OIFs and OAFs for her special powers) are also very strong builds in Champions. And Spiderman, who can rule all on 350 points.

[stan da ork]

Re: Hidden Template

 

Only 80%? Man, back to the drawing board...

 

Seriously, I forgot about Foci (and their little brother, OIHID). HERO loves Foci. Foci give characters potentially huge point savings plus access to the equipment doubling rule, and as far as I've seen, rarely get taken, broken, etc. in most games. That's not to say that there aren't people who use them as the Limitations they are meant to be, but many GMs just plain don't want to deal with having all the opponents disarming and grabbing and attacking Foci left and right. All of this goes double for OIHID, which is just free points in most games, especially since more than any other Limitation, the downside of OIHID is mostly unquantified.

 

Spiderman is another excellent example of a character following the hidden template: high Characteristics, Martial Arts (in most builds, anyway), a big attack (the aforementioned Martial Arts/STR), one mode of movement (Swinging), and tons of points saved to buy Clinging and his web shooters (multipower of utility powers bought through a Focus). Superman and Wonder Woman are both close, but since most people tend to build them on thousands of points, they don't have to worry about the template as much.

 

Edit: More specifically, here is why I don't think Superman totally fits the template (as I have put it forth, anyway). Most people would not give Supes any Martial Arts, as he tends to just punch guys in the face. However, I can make a Superman clone, save just 14 points (maybe by weakening the super breath or something), and buy Defensive Strike, Martial Strike, and Offensive Strike. I spent the requisite 10+ points on Martial Arts, and I have both Defensive Strike and Martial Strike, both of which are in all ways better than just punching someone, plus Offensive Strike, which is a great replacement for Haymaker against tough opponents. All in all, Superman, but better.

 

Another note that I haven't mentioned is that while I think HERO encourages this template from an efficiency standpoint, many character concepts don't suggest following it. Which means, as Sean's comment which prompted this thread pointed out, many character concepts end up costing more points and being less powerful than a concept which does suggest following the template.

[OddHat]

Re: Hidden Template

 

Superman and Wonder Woman are both close' date=' but since most people tend to build them on thousands of points, they don't have to worry about the template as much.[/quote']

 

Agreed on all of that, but I'd add that the early Golden Age Superman and Wonder Woman work very well on 350 point builds or less. You can do the first few appearances of either character on 250 points, give or take.

 

The high Silver Age versions require much higher point builds if you're not going to get very tricky with your limits.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Hidden Template

 

Sorry to Necro up a thread from a few days ago, but I've been away from my computer and only read it now. We call these characters "speedbricks", and they are defined as characters who have spent more than 60% (give or take) of their points on Characteristics. While this is obviously not the only defining factor, it's a good indication of what a character is about- melee combat, usually.

[Lucius]

Hidden Template

 

I think it's funny that one part of the "template" is so deeply hidden (or hidden in plain sight?) I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Not even the palindromedary

[OddHat]

Re: Hidden Template

 

I think it's funny that one part of the "template" is so deeply hidden (or hidden in plain sight?) I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Not even the palindromedary

 

Asking leading questions is easy; actually making and defending an assertion is the tough part. Socrates was a poseur.

 

If you have an idea, do share.

[DrFaust]

Re: Hidden Template

 

In making a Champions character and receiving critique over on that board a couple months ago, I came to think of it as the "buy-in." Basically, it seems if you want your character to stay standing in a combat, you need so much SPD, PD, ED, CON and all those other things, to the point you may find you've spent more than half your points in making a character unlike the one you planned to play.

 

It's honestly one of the most frustrating things about HERO, for me.

[stan da ork]

Re: Hidden Template

 

Totally agreed, DrFaust. My first Champions character ever was going to be a mentalist, and I built her with a 10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 CON, etc. This was completely in concept, as she was physically nothing special, but had a tremendous EGO, along with EGO Attack, Telepathy, and I think Mind Control. The GM pointed out (and quite correctly, I might add) that any hit that didn't knock her out cold would STUN her, and the second hit would finish the job. She would get maybe one Phase in a normal combat before she was removed from the fight. As you put it, she hadn't spent enough on the "buy-in," and as a result, she wasn't effective; but spending more on the "buy-in" would have taken away from her concept.

 

This is why, I think, the speedbrick (I like that term, and am going to use it for the "template" character) is so efficient in the system - because it is totally in concept for such a character to spend his points on the "buy-in." Since that's what he was going to spend points on anyway, he basically ends up with extra points to either up his core stats, or buy some utility tricks.

[DrFaust]

Re: Hidden Template

 

So my question is: what we can do to remove the bias? Making the elements of the speedbrick more expensive doesn't seem like it would solve anything, because then speedbricks are still proportionately more well-suited to the system than other concepts. Maybe elements of the system need to be changed, like, say, what causes a character to be stunned?

 

Also, does this come out in other genres, or is it an issue just with super heroes?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hidden Template

 

I think a common misconception here is that "speed-bricks" have to have a higher SPD score than other character types. The "combat-speed" is of those character types is usually reserved to movement powers and attack actions that can affect multiple oponents (multiple moveby or HA's bought with area affect linked to movement). Other speed effects can be simulated with Overall levels used towards moving down the time chart.

 

Since we are mostly talking supers here I am going to refer to one of the best sources: Justice League Animated. Flash and Superman do not "think" any faster than Batman. Once they decide on a particular action they can perform it much faster but the key is that they still must "decide" major changes of actions (just about anything but changing directions while moving) by use of a SPD score very close if not the same as Batman's. I would put forth that a Mentalist should have as high or higher SPD than a speedster in most games.

 

HM

[Bloodstone]

Re: Hidden Template

 

We've kicked around the idea that EGO and CON could be combined to determine both ttal STUN and the the point at which you become stunned.

 

Never figured out a price structure for it though...

[Bloodstone]

Re: Hidden Template

 

Since we are mostly talking supers here I am going to refer to one of the best sources: Justice League Animated. Flash and Superman do not "think" any faster than Batman. Once they decide on a particular action they can perform it much faster but the key is that they still must "decide" major changes of actions (just about anything but changing directions while moving) by use of a SPD score very close if not the same as Batman's. I would put forth that a Mentalist should have as high or higher SPD than a speedster in most games.

 

Not true in the comics though. The Flash, has a mind that is essentially the fastest computer on the planet. He's capable of running millions of computations in the blink of an eye. Infact, it's one of the reasons he's so damn stubborn. In the time it takes Batman to consider one or two angles, Wally has already considered all of the angles he's possibly able to, made a decision and been ready to go for relative hours. The problem is, Wally isn't that observant or particulalry brilliant. He's a mostly normal guy with a mind that operates at the speed of light...

 

That said, most of the mentalists I have built hava a "Speed of Thought" type power. Bonus SPD that only applies to activating their mental powers, not physical actions. Good way to save a few points, remain mostly in concept and still be quite effective. You can also buy limited CON, only to determine when a character is Stunned...

[DrFaust]

Re: Hidden Template

 

That said' date=' most of the mentalists I have built hava a "Speed of Thought" type power. Bonus SPD that only applies to activating their mental powers, not physical actions. Good way to save a few points, remain mostly in concept and still be quite effective. You can also buy limited CON, only to determine when a character is Stunned...[/quote']

 

Those are very interesting ideas! How would that kind of SPD work in the course of a combat? What's the value for that limitation on CON?

[zornwil]

Re: Hidden Template

 

So my question is: what we can do to remove the bias? Making the elements of the speedbrick more expensive doesn't seem like it would solve anything, because then speedbricks are still proportionately more well-suited to the system than other concepts. Maybe elements of the system need to be changed, like, say, what causes a character to be stunned?

 

Also, does this come out in other genres, or is it an issue just with super heroes?

I think this problem is rooted in the source material. RDU Neil and I were discussing a bit ago that HERO rationalizes the fantastic - and when you do that, you illuminate/challenge where the fantastic isn't coherent. In the comics (and not just there, but given the examples I'll use that) the mentalist or other sort of non-physical type never gets smacked down quickly by the faster, speedier brick directly unless it's part of the plot. Often we have heroes running around with really nothing like the defenses we would build in Champions/HERO, and the reason is that in the comics they get missed a lot and in team settings the tough guys will take the blows while someone like Jean Gray or Sue Storm manages to avoid getting taken out early on, sticking around to serve as combat support in the important mid-battle phase, at least, if not serving as the ace in the hole in the end.

 

So some of the response, i'd say, is for the GM not to smack down the weaker characters. To play by the genre, it becomes important to metagame in a way, to have villains who play by the rules of "let's blast the brick first!" or otherwise go after the flamboyant character who is perceived as important to put down simply because they keep going otherwise.

 

Another possibility is to do what the comics are basically doing, and pile on Combat Luck. As GM, you can be more generous, too, about Combat Luck and allow it to exceed the total character points limits of the game. To come back to the problem of points, maybe just allow the concepts which work well but otherwise are too exposed to have extra XPs so they can have this Combat Luck or higher DCV or other such ways to ensure they last.

 

To your point, another problem I see, especially in higher-points games, is that the tough guys also have to start competing with mental powers, since otherwise they are smacked down immediately by any mentalist at a certain power level unless they do. This isn't so bad in one way - in the comics through whatever rationalizations our heroes often stand up against mentalists somehow, to some degree. But it does stretch one's sense of appropriateness for the character.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Hidden Template

 

One of the elements of the "hidden template" that's easy to overlook is that HERO places far greater weight on elements that are usable in combat over those which work out of combat, even if those provide considerable benefits. Consider the low, low price of Perks, for example: for the cost of a 1D6 Killing Attack, you can be a multi-billionaire or the leader of your own country. Benefits like those are far costlier in many other games, even HERO's cousin, GURPS; and when you think of what you could practically do with such resources that's hard to argue with.

[Gary]

Re: Hidden Template

 

High Dex High Speed Bricks with basic martial arts are just about as efficient as you're going to get if you don't start getting cheesy with limitations.

 

Characters with overall broad limitations such as OIHID, IIF, or OIF are going to be terrifying if they're built properly.

 

Sniper types of all varieties are also enormously effective, depending on what a GM actually allows.

 

There are any number of ways of optimizing the system. These 3 are probably the easiest.