Worst comic book superfight ever

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Given most of the "worst super-fight ever" nominees feature charaters suddenly able to take on threats far beyond anything their prior history shows them as beong remotely competetive with' date=' it seems to me X-Men #213 is a worthy nominee. The only reason it doesn't come up is because the huge power-up was retained afterwards, but we're still left with "Bad @$$ Sabertooth" (1st app X-Men #213; lengthy history following) and "Sabretooth Lite" (lengthy history of being beat up by Iron fist, SpiderMan and similar characters - not challenging them, getting beat up by them).[/quote']

 

Maybe Mister Sinister cloned Sabertooth and gave him an upgrade using Logan's DNA?

[Kenn]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

See there is this canadian Mutant with claws and a healing factor, and this alien who normaly fights GL's and Superman who is super strong, has knives, and a even BETTER healing factor. They meet up in an intergalactic bar and throw down (over some stupid, this is how bar brawls start issue), they take it behind the bar, and then some fight noices, then wolverine stands up and says "He's the best at what he does bub"

 

Shows you how popularity can turn the tide of common sense

 

From that same series... Could someone explain to me how the mostly human (except for her weather control abilities) Storm could have been trading blows with Wonder Woman (you know, strength and speed to rival the gods, or Superman.) I mean, maybe Storm could beat Wonder Woman by throwing a hurricane at Diana or something. But when they showed Diana kicking Ororo in the head, and Storm stayed conscious (and alive, rather than being decapitated)... That was messed up.

[nexus]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

"

See there is this canadian Mutant with claws and a healing factor, and this alien who normaly fights GL's and Superman who is super strong, has knives, and a even BETTER healing factor. They meet up in an intergalactic bar and throw down (over some stupid, this is how bar brawls start issue), they take it behind the bar, and then some fight noices, then wolverine stands up and says "He's the best at what he does bub"

 

Shows you how popularity can turn the tide of common sense"

 

 

That was only the prequel. Anyone read the Access sequel, where the JLA fought the X Men (Storm, Cyclops, Jubilee, De-Phoenixed Jean Grey, Bishop, Ice Man, and Cannonball)? Here's a partial list of the cheese:

 

1. Cannonball nails Aquaman with his canonflight...so far, so good. But he then proceeds to pimp slap Aquaman in hand to hand combat. Umm...no.

 

2. Batman is shown charging Cyclops and dodging his blasts...pretty bad, but THEN he grabs Cyclops in a rear choke hold, and someohw Cyclops STILL manages to blast him off panel. Scott can turn his head 180 degrees? Who knew?

 

3. Jean Grey holds off SUPERMAN by TK'ing rocks into him. Fist-sized, kriptonite-free rocks.

 

But the winner?

 

4. Bishops beats up the Martian Manhunter. Just kicks his ass (Physically, mind, not through absorbing J'ohns Martian vision) in each and every panel shown. At one point, he pulls a bookcase on top of J'ohn, and THIS HURTS HIM.

 

 

I can see the writter having a Marvel bias, but he could have at LEAST done some basic research on the characters he was using.

 

Were JLA members pulling their punches? That doesn't explain how the Xmne were able to hurt some of them though...

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Maybe Mister Sinister cloned Sabertooth and gave him an upgrade using Logan's DNA?

I thought it was obvious that all the Marauders were clones; especally as Sabertooth seemed to be in more than one place at a time following that story line. And IIRC Sabertooth died in that story line. As did many other Marauders who have showed up alive and well without explanation since then.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

From that same series... Could someone explain to me how the mostly human (except for her weather control abilities) Storm could have been trading blows with Wonder Woman (you know' date=' strength and speed to rival the gods, or Superman.) I mean, maybe Storm could beat Wonder Woman by throwing a hurricane at Diana or something. But when they showed Diana kicking Ororo in the head, and Storm stayed conscious (and alive, rather than being decapitated)... That was messed up.[/quote']

 

Maybe Mister Sinister cloned Sabertooth and gave him an upgrade using Logan's DNA?

 

Clearly, Mr. Sinister was very busy in the Access multiverse...

 

Why would Sinister upgrade Sabertooth and never upgrade any of his other clones again?

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I thought it was obvious that all the Marauders were clones; especally as Sabertooth seemed to be in more than one place at a time following that story line. And IIRC Sabertooth died in that story line. As did many other Marauders who have showed up alive and well without explanation since then.

 

Well, it could be clones, or it could just be lousy writing. Both seem popular with Marvel these days.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Why would Sinister upgrade Sabertooth and never upgrade any of his other clones again?

Maybe the Spidey/Iron Fist Sabertooth was an inferior clone? [i think they've shown flashbacks of Sabertooth where he was the tougher version.]

 

Then again, why am I bothering trying to fix Marvel's continuity? They obviously aren't too concerned about it.

[Twilight]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Maybe the Spidey/Iron Fist Sabertooth was an inferior clone? [i think they've shown flashbacks of Sabertooth where he was the tougher version.]

 

Then again, why am I bothering trying to fix Marvel's continuity? They obviously aren't too concerned about it.

 

Actually I used to have a comic, a Power Man & Iron Fist one, where Sabretooth teamed up with Constrictor to fight Power Man, Iron Fist, Colleen Wing and Misty Knight. The villains were originally going after the Daughters of the Dragon when Power Man and Iron Fist showed up and while the villains did lose in the end it was by no means an easy fight. He was most definetly a challenge.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No offense, but *Iron Fist* has himself trashed whole groups of X-Men, too. Losing to Iron Fist is no big black mark.

[Twilight]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No offense' date=' but *Iron Fist* has himself trashed whole groups of X-Men, too. Losing to Iron Fist is no big black mark.[/quote']

 

None taken. I was just saying that Sabretooth didn't do badly in the fights mentioned is all. No insult to Power Man or Iron Fist, both of whom are characters I'm quite fond of.

[Jhamin]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No offense' date=' but *Iron Fist* has himself trashed whole groups of X-Men, too. Losing to Iron Fist is no big black mark.[/quote']

 

I don't think anyone is accusing Sabretooth of being whussy in the old days, just that he clearly lacked the powers that current continuity says he "always" had.

 

I have the Spiderman comic Hugh Neilson refrenced. Getting skin torn off when he pulled the webbing off of his face inflicted so much pain that Sabretooth fainted. I also have a Mutant Massacre crossover issue of Daredevil where the Man Without Fear fights Sabretooth to a standstill. DD's super senses are described as being far superior to ST's cat eyes.

 

From what I gather from Iron Fist fans, these appearences are pretty much in keeping with Sabretooth's old school appearences. Suddenly, somebody decided he is a good foil for Wolverine and suddenly he has a healing factor, super senses, super strength, and always did from the first time he showed up.

 

It just didn't really track. If there had been some kind of "Sinister cloned them with upgrades" plotline I would be fine. There wasn't. He was just cool all of a sudden and for purposes of this fight we were supposed to ignore all the previous appearences of the character.

[Twilight]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well to be fair, most villains wouldn't have been able to tear Spidey's webbing off anyway so that indicates some measure of superstrength and I recall him tracking Coleen Wing and Misty Knight by scent [though I could be mistaken on that one, it's been a long time since I read that comic] so he had super strength and super senses to some degree at that point. Not saying they weren't upgraded at somepoint though.

 

Healing factor is harder to pinpoint. How long did it take him to recover from the skin torn off face thing?

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No explanation was offered for this huge power-up. To my knowledge' date=' no explanation has been offered to date.[/quote']

 

It was written by Claremont; sometimes I wonder if he's ever read a single comic by another writer. Certainly, he's never cared about what anyone else has written -- things are how he wants them to be, in his own little universe. That's all that matters.

 

Witness, for instance, Rogue evidencing brick-related powers that Ms Marvel never had, even as Binary. Or any one of a dozen inconsistencies with the rest of the marvel universe that cropped up in any given issue.

 

Not that internal consistency (in characterisation or powers) was a big thing, either. Even such glaring stuff, like Kitty having two 14th birthday parties, years (of real time) apart. That was funny.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well' date=' it could be clones, or it could just be lousy writing. Both seem popular with Marvel these days.[/quote']

 

It's been explicitly stated that many of the Marauders have been cloned. This was fanon for a long time, but later issues are clear on this issue.

 

By 'many', I mean ones such as Scalphunter, Riptide and Vertigo. There have been clones of Sabretooth created (Gambit and... Bishop or Jean, I forget... fought one in Sinister's lab when it was released as a defence mechanism). I don't believe it's been explicitly stated that any particular appearance of Sabretooth is a clone. It's possible that he's never died, therefore clones of him have never been released 'into the wild'. But neither, up to when I read, had it been stated that there was only one Sabretooth.

[Twilight]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It was written by Claremont; sometimes I wonder if he's ever read a single comic by another writer. Certainly, he's never cared about what anyone else has written -- things are how he wants them to be, in his own little universe. That's all that matters.

 

Witness, for instance, Rogue evidencing brick-related powers that Ms Marvel never had, even as Binary. Or any one of a dozen inconsistencies with the rest of the marvel universe that cropped up in any given issue.

 

Not that internal consistency (in characterisation or powers) was a big thing, either. Even such glaring stuff, like Kitty having two 14th birthday parties, years (of real time) apart. That was funny.

 

Err....wasn't Ms Marvel a flying brick? Before she became Binary I mean? I remember that being her powerset at any rate. She's essentially at the same power level now as Warbird as she was back when she was Ms Marvel.

[Vestnik]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I'm thinking, specifically, of the ultimate moment when Thor and the Hulk grapple and it says in the narrative, essentially, that "the two titans lock into an unmoving sculpture of bridled force" and that they subsequently grapple, motionlessly, for over an hour with neither relenting until they are split apart by the arrival of their teams.

 

Vigil

 

I think this scene is ripe for exploitation by the gay porn industry.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wonder Woman vs Storm: Most of the X-men have no right to survive what they do, since they are essentially normal humans. So while Wonder Woman could well have taken Storms head off, so could the Juggernaut or other super powered characters. This is probably why the old Marvel Superhero game used to claim that mutants were tougher and more resiliant then normal humans (I don't know if this claim was founded on any statement by Marvel mind you). That said, there is no doubt in my mind that Wonder Woman would school Storm's ass... an admitedly appealing immage

 

Ms Marvel: In her first incarnation Carol was a typical flying brick with the added twist of a danger sense ability and an instant change wardrobe. These are the exact powers (minus the costume) Rogue stole from her in Avengers Annual #10 which was written by Claremont in 1981. She didn't get her cosmic Binary powers until X-Men #163 or 164, which was also written by Claremont in late 82 or early 83.

 

For the record, Carol has since switched back from Warbird to Ms. Marvel again

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Err....wasn't Ms Marvel a flying brick? Before she became Binary I mean? I remember that being her powerset at any rate. She's essentially at the same power level now as Warbird as she was back when she was Ms Marvel.

 

Yup, was a flying brick. But Rogue has evidenced far greater power levels than Ms Marvel ever did (until she became Binary). She's also exhibited super-speed (in recent comics, she did the Superman trick of catching bullets... but EVERY BULLET from a gatling gun). That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I seem to remember various other powers cropping up and thinking 'hang on, where did that come from?'

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

This is probably why the old Marvel Superhero game used to claim that mutants were tougher and more resiliant then normal humans (I don't know if this claim was founded on any statement by Marvel mind you).

The closest I can think of is one issue of Xcalibur, which stated explicitly that mutants heal faster than normal humans (in this case, Nightcrawler recovered from a broken limb -- leg, I think -- in half the time). I don't recall it being stated anywhere else, but it's not inconsistent with the rest of the series, so it's fair enough to assume.

[quoteMs Marvel: In her first incarnation Carol was a typical flying brick with the added twist of a danger sense ability and an instant change wardrobe. These are the exact powers (minus the costume) Rogue stole from her in Avengers Annual #10 which was written by Claremont in 1981. She didn't get her cosmic Binary powers until X-Men #163 or 164, which was also written by Claremont in late 82 or early 83.

 

For the record, Carol has since switched back from Warbird to Ms. Marvel again

Heh, I didn't realise she had the instant change wardrobe. The danger sense was also not used much by Rogue.

 

I also seem to remember that Carol got her powers from Captain Marvel, and them ending up being not a heck of a lot like his (other than the tough and strong bit). I guess the danger sense is a VERY watered down cosmic awareness... presumably she only got part of the powerset!

[Bloodstone]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yup' date=' was a flying brick. But Rogue has evidenced far greater power levels than Ms Marvel ever did (until she became Binary). She's also exhibited super-speed (in recent comics, she did the Superman trick of catching bullets... but EVERY BULLET from a gatling gun). That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I seem to remember various other powers cropping up and thinking 'hang on, where did that come from?'[/quote']

 

hmmm... I don't remember that specific issue. How recent was it?

 

Rogue has absorbed a LOT of powers in her day. Not too long ago, she went through a period of time when she cuold access the power templates of anyone she had touched in the past. Sometimes these powers manifested without conscious control, which is why she started wearing ruby quartz sunglasses at all times. If it was during that period of time, all bets are off

 

For the record, she has since been nerfed back to a more reasonable level, but she no longer has any of Ms Marvels powers. Instead, she has permenantly absorbed Sunfire's plasma generation abilities.

 

also seem to remember that Carol got her powers from Captain Marvel, and them ending up being not a heck of a lot like his (other than the tough and strong bit). I guess the danger sense is a VERY watered down cosmic awareness... presumably she only got part of the powerset!

 

You know, I was going to try and explain this all from memory... but why do all that typing when somone else has done it for me?

Spotlight on Carol Danvers

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

hmmm... I don't remember that specific issue. How recent was it?

 

Rogue has absorbed a LOT of powers in her day. Not too long ago, she went through a period of time when she cuold access the power templates of anyone she had touched in the past. Sometimes these powers manifested without conscious control, which is why she started wearing ruby quartz sunglasses at all times. If it was during that period of time, all bets are off

 

For the record, she has since been nerfed back to a more reasonable level, but she no longer has any of Ms Marvels powers. Instead, she has permenantly absorbed Sunfire's plasma generation abilities.

I'd heard of the Sunfire thing. As for the super-speed, it was shortly after Claremont's return, during the whole Neo saga (I AM SALVO. I AM THE LIVING GUN! -- it was the guy she blocked). I wouldn't think it was something related to her manifesting odd powers, because no-one (including her) batted an eyelid.

 

You know, I was going to try and explain this all from memory... but why do all that typing when somone else has done it for me?

Spotlight on Carol Danvers

Hey, thanks!

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It was written by Claremont; sometimes I wonder if he's ever read a single comic by another writer. Certainly' date=' he's never cared about what anyone else has written -- things are how he wants them to be, in his own little universe. That's all that matters.[/quote']

And the fact that Sabertooth and Rogue were created by Claremont certainly does not excuse him from any mishandling of the characters by other writers.

 

Folks, we take this far too seriously.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Heh, I didn't realise she had the instant change wardrobe. The danger sense was also not used much by Rogue.

 

I also seem to remember that Carol got her powers from Captain Marvel, and them ending up being not a heck of a lot like his (other than the tough and strong bit). I guess the danger sense is a VERY watered down cosmic awareness... presumably she only got part of the powerset!

Yet she could fly without the Nega-bands, something Mar-Vell cuuldn't do.

 

I suggested to Clairmont once that she might be the best of Kree with the best of Human, Strength and resilience from the Kree, precognition and effortless levitation (powers that humans are evolving toward in the Marvel Universe) from her Human potential. He said he liked the idea, but I don't recall if he ever used it in a script.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well to be fair' date=' most villains wouldn't have been able to tear Spidey's webbing off anyway so that indicates some measure of superstrength [/quote']

 

Technically, he didn't tear off the webbing. He tore off the skin from his face.

 

Healing factor is harder to pinpoint. How long did it take him to recover from the skin torn off face thing?

 

As I recall, he appeared a few issues later in Spidey and tore the stitches on his face. With the healing factor a few months later in X-Men #213, he should have healed up in a couple of panels, much less several issues. In fairness, I don't know whether his healing factor had previously been established and the Spidey issues are out of sync on this matter.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And the fact that Sabertooth and Rogue were created by Claremont certainly does not excuse him from any mishandling of the characters by other writers.

 

Folks, we take this far too seriously.

Heh, did he? I didn't know that. Changed my opinion slightly... but only slightly. Guy still couldn't be bothered with consistency. It just saddened me. I guess it grates more than it should, because his run on X-Men was what finally drove me out of comics. Funds were getting tighter, I wasn't prepared to keep shelling out for titles that hadn't been good in years, when they were showing no sign of improving and every sign of getting worse... so I dumped my X-Titles. this put me below the threshold titles required to keep a standing order, and since I don't make it to the comic shop every week, and thus would necessarily miss titles... well, I just stopped collecting. The only title I actually missed was Black Panther (but I ended up getting the rest of that run in back-issues later).