Mjolnir

[Starlord]

I submit that Thor's hammer is a magical weapon that hits with increased magical damage. Firstly, having Thor's hammer thrown at you is something pretty much every being in the MU fears. There are hundreds of examples that show it doing far more damage than a simple punch from Thor. It often trails magical energies and lightning when he REALLY cuts loose. There are also probably hundreds of examples of Thor getting enraged and wailing away on someone with energy and lightning flaring around the weapon.

 

From one standpoint, a being as strong as Thor does not need to use a weapon like us normal humans. If I use a baseball bat on you, it will do far more damage than my fist. However, Thor's fist is pretty much unbreakable for all intents and purposes. If he used an adamantium baseball bat on someone it shouldn't help him do significantly more damage than his punch. Yet, his hammer blows are ALWAYS far more dangerous than his fists. He will often speak of 'calling on Mjolnir's power' before delivering shots. I've always thought it a given that his hammer delivers an extra 'magical' oomph.

 

Discuss...or not.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

From one standpoint' date=' a being as strong as Thor does not need to use a weapon like us normal humans. If I use a baseball bat on you, it will do far more damage than my fist. However, Thor's fist is pretty much unbreakable for all intents and purposes. If he used an adamantium baseball bat on someone it shouldn't help him do significantly more damage than his punch.[/quote']

 

You're forgetting leverage and density count as well as toughness.

 

An indestructibilium hammer, whether magical or not, will do these two things for Thor:

 

* It will make his 'arm' effectively about two feet longer on a swing.

 

* It will make his 'fist' effectively dozens of pounds *heavier* on a swing.

 

Now, if you took Thor's arm, made it 5 feet long instead of 3 (or 4.5 instead of 2.5, or whatever), and then made his fist weigh 50 pounds instead of its usual weight, he'd be hitting harder on his roundhouse swing than even he does normally, right?

 

That's what holding Mjolnir (or the aforementioned adamantium baseball bat) does. Like any other club, the increased force of the blow comes from a) the increased weight of the club and the fact that it acts as a lever to multiply the momentum of the tip, because longer 'arm' = endpoint of 'arm' swinging faster.

 

Granted, a *normal* hammer won't do this for Thor, for the simple reason that if he applies any fraction of his full strength through it, the damn thing will shatter before it can transfer all the force of his blow to the target. But that's why he uses indestructibilium hammers.

 

 

(add) There's also the fact that the hammer allows Thor to put the strength of both of his arms behind only one 'fist', but he doesn't always use it two-handed style.

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

How long before this degrades into Supes vs. Thor?

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

My opinion?

 

If Thor doesn't know about the magic weakness and thus sticks solely to big blunt attacks (which is what Thor usually does, him having that Psych Lim of "Prefers The Slugfest, Common, Moderate"), Supes has a legitimate chance to win.

 

If Thor *does* know about the magic weakness and thus adjusts tactics to compensate (after all, his Psych Lim about preferring the straight-up brawl is only Moderate, meaning he can set it aside at need), then Superman's frickin' screwed.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Lest not forget that Thor is magic. Not weilds magic Thor *is* Magic! Thus like Captain Marvel Thor can beat Superman. It might no not be easy, Superman still has all that Stun and Body, but his Defenses are lower to Thor's blows whether or not he uses the hammer to deliver them.

 

But I digress, yes Mjolnir increases the damage Thor delivers in combat...significantly.

 

Hawksmoor

[Bloodstone]

Re: Mjolnir

 

I thought this WAS a Thor vs Superman argument...

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Note, Captain Marvel beat Superman only when he specifically charged his fist with magic lightning beforehand. (Even then it took two punches, not one, and surprise shots to the back of Supes' head besides... although CM was only trying to KO him, not kill him, so the first shot was definitely pulled.)

 

When CM just punches Superman in the normal way, it's only a normal superstrong punch to Big Blue's defenses. It has to be a deliberately magic-charged attack to down him.

 

Just like...

 

* Thor swings Mjolnir

 

Superman goes "ow! damn! that hurt!"

 

* Thor charges up Mjolnir, to where mystic energies and the magic lightning is crackling around the head... and then swings it.

 

Superman goes "AGH! Oh, my shattered bones! Oh my bleeding internal organs!"

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Note, Captain Marvel beat Superman only when he specifically charged his fist with magic lightning beforehand. (Even then it took two punches, not one, and surprise shots to the back of Supes' head besides... although CM was only trying to KO him, not kill him, so the first shot was definitely pulled.)

 

When CM just punches Superman in the normal way, it's only a normal superstrong punch to Big Blue's defenses. It has to be a deliberately magic-charged attack to down him.

 

Just like...

 

* Thor swings Mjolnir

 

Superman goes "ow! damn! that hurt!"

 

* Thor charges up Mjolnir, to where mystic energies and the magic lightning is crackling around the head... and then swings it.

 

Superman goes "AGH! Oh, my shattered bones! Oh my bleeding internal organs!"

 

Right two blows, never argued otherwise. I like that comic. I disagree that the blows were pulled. Billy knew he had to get Superman out of commision quick. This is the reason that The Big Red Cheese is *the* Anti Superman weapon in the JLA's arsenal. Think way back to the Eclipso event of 1990ish. Who did they send against an Eclisped Kal El? Captain Marvel.

 

Really, Superman's vulnerability to magic is highly variable. To me, it is any attack/effect with a magic origin. Thus Superman cannot break down a door with his Superstrength that has been enchanted with a Hold Portal type spell. The could Heat Vision it out of existence, but he could not rip it from it's hinges. Same thing applies to Magic bricks punching him. It does not kill Superman, he has too much stun and Body, but his DR and Enhanced PD are way, way down.

 

But anyway Mjolnir is the Mightiest Weapon in the Marvel Universe!

 

Hawksmoor

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Wow, this so had nothing to do with Supes until I posted his name...one post, that's how long it took, one post.

 

I win.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

No, I think Billy was pulling his blows for two simple reasons:

 

a) Billy knows Supes is vulnerable to magic. But he *doesn't* know *exactly how much*. So he runs a risk of killing Superman on the first shot, if that first shot is his best haymaker and not a pulled punch.

 

Desperate situation or not, ain't no way Billy is wanting to kill Superman. This kind of behavior is what CvKs are *for*.

 

So the first shot was pulled enough to test Supes' defenses, so that Billy knew how hard the second punch had to be to KO Supes, without being too hard to kill him.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Wow, this so had nothing to do with Supes until I posted his name...one post, that's how long it took, one post.

 

I win.

 

Well you did bring it up. So monkey man enjoy your spoils.

 

Hawksmoor

[Starlord]

Re: Mjolnir

 

You're forgetting leverage and density count as well as toughness.

 

An indestructibilium hammer, whether magical or not, will do these two things for Thor:

 

* It will make his 'arm' effectively about two feet longer on a swing.

 

* It will make his 'fist' effectively dozens of pounds *heavier* on a swing.

 

Now, if you took Thor's arm, made it 5 feet long instead of 3 (or 4.5 instead of 2.5, or whatever), and then made his fist weigh 50 pounds instead of its usual weight, he'd be hitting harder on his roundhouse swing than even he does normally, right?

 

That's what holding Mjolnir (or the aforementioned adamantium baseball bat) does. Like any other club, the increased force of the blow comes from a) the increased weight of the club and the fact that it acts as a lever to multiply the momentum of the tip, because longer 'arm' = endpoint of 'arm' swinging faster.

 

Granted, a *normal* hammer won't do this for Thor, for the simple reason that if he applies any fraction of his full strength through it, the damn thing will shatter before it can transfer all the force of his blow to the target. But that's why he uses indestructibilium hammers.

 

 

(add) There's also the fact that the hammer allows Thor to put the strength of both of his arms behind only one 'fist', but he doesn't always use it two-handed style.

 

All true, but at those damage levels, again, I don't think it is the significant increase that is generally portrayed in all of Thor's battles. Definitely grant you your last point.

[Starlord]

Re: Mjolnir

 

How long before this degrades into Supes vs. Thor?

 

Shhh. I was trying to be sneaky about it.

[Starlord]

Re: Mjolnir

 

No, I think Billy was pulling his blows for two simple reasons:

 

a) Billy knows Supes is vulnerable to magic. But he *doesn't* know *exactly how much*. So he runs a risk of killing Superman on the first shot, if that first shot is his best haymaker and not a pulled punch.

 

Desperate situation or not, ain't no way Billy is wanting to kill Superman. This kind of behavior is what CvKs are *for*.

 

So the first shot was pulled enough to test Supes' defenses, so that Billy knew how hard the second punch had to be to KO Supes, without being too hard to kill him.

 

Are you saying that Supes basically has no defenses whatsoever against magic? I don't understand that to be accurate given what I've seen of Superman.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Are you saying that Supes basically has no defenses whatsoever against magic?

 

Seeing as how I've seen vampires bite through his supertough skin as if it were normal human flesh, do I have much of a choice?

 

In the Silver Age, Pre-Crisis, at least, Superman had absolutely no defenses at all vs. magic. Willow Rosenberg could conceivably have killed him with a magically levitated pencil, it was about that bad. Along with the "his powers all instantly turn off if he's hit with a red sunlamp!" weakness, PC-Supes' magic weakness was the most debilitating he had. (Kryptonite was his most famous weakness, but paradoxically it was actually his least crippling one.)

 

Post-Crisis, Supes has gotten better, to the point where he's only a lot more vulnerable vs. magic, not totally puked out against it. (It does seem to vary -- the more 'purely magical' something is, the less tough he is against it. So magical creatures punching him with mundane punches, barely bugs him at all... magical lightning wrapped around a fist like mystic energy brass knuckles and *then* punching him, he goes down.)

 

However, this is Captain Marvel we're talking about here. He's strong enough that even if Superman kept, oh, 10% of his defenses vs. magic (and remember, that means he's 10% as durable as something that can soak multi-megaton nuclear blasts, i.e., still pretty godawful tough)... well, a 90% vulnerable Superman taking Billy Batson's haymaker to the back of his head is still quite likely to die, never mind that he's still got metahuman durability. Captain Marvel is strong enough to beat even lower-tier bricks to death, let alone normal people.

 

So when hitting a Superman whose lost a major chunk of his defenses against him, but him not knowing *exactly how much* of those defenses are gone, Billy still has to be a little careful.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

All true' date=' but at those damage levels, again, I don't think it is the significant increase that is generally portrayed in all of Thor's battles.[/quote']

 

Note, a lot of Thor's really top-end "MJOLNIR SMASH!" feats have been:

 

a) after Thor has done a deliberate wind-up and

with the head of Mjolnir visibly crackling with magical energy

 

Two things that the vast majority of Thor's casual hammer swings *don't* have.

 

Which would tie into what I said earlier about having to deliberately pump up the magical lightning and charge the head with it, for a truly nice +d6 bonus to the smash.

 

Normally, however, Thor doesn't need it, because how many things does Thor run into that requires him to use his Wave Motion Gun attack to take down? He's Thor, most normal Avengers foes fall before his mighty pinky finger, let alone Mjolnir in 'overcharge' mode.

[Starlord]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Normally' date=' however, Thor doesn't need it, because how many things does Thor run into that requires him to use his Wave Motion Gun attack to take down? He's Thor, most normal Avengers foes fall before his mighty pinky finger, let alone Mjolnir in 'overcharge' mode.[/quote']

 

I like the Starblazers reference.

 

Surely, he'd have used this against Superman the millisecond after he determined Supes' power level, which was pretty apparent when he got up from Thor's opening salvo.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Surely' date=' he'd have used this against Superman the millisecond after he determined Supes' power level, which was pretty apparent when he got up from Thor's opening salvo.[/quote']

 

Thor didn't have a chance -- after Supes got back up, he took it back up into Thor's face and started working his speed advantage for everything he could get. Thor never got a free phase to do a haymaker wind-up.

 

After all, Supes isn't stupid either -- he knew damn well that he didn't want to take any more hits like that again, so he started speedblitzing.

 

And note again that Thor said later in the series 'I know Superman's measure now... him and me ever have a rematch, he's going to get one fugly surprise right in the face.'

[keithcurtis]

Re: Mjolnir

 

My take has always been (though there will never be a consensus by the editors of DC Comics) that Superman is vulnerable to Magic, not things that are inherently magical. Magic spells work on him. Magic weapons only affect him if the enchantment is specifically to give them unnatural damage ability. Thus Wonder Woman's sword is enchanted to cut through anything; it can cut Superman. Thor's hammer is magically enchanted to control weather (and open interdimensional gates, and- and- anything else Thor;s writers need), not to hit harder. It hurts because Thor is swinging or throwing it.

Vampires can bite him for the same reason that Dracula can catch Colossus' punch (canon), He is a supernatural (infernal) being. He is specifical created to be a magical predator of humans. Vampires are the "Wolf in the Fold" for humanity. Superman counts as human in symbolic terms, thus they can affect him.

There's a lot of wiggle room in that definition, but it fits the established pattern as well as possible.

 

In game terms, I would still allow him one point of resistant defense (perhaps Combat Luck) that is resistant to magical effects. This way, even if he bleeds, he is able to use his awesome stun and PD totals to avoid being KO'd outright.

 

Keith "Not to mention the fact that he has about 40 BOD and slow regeneration" Curtis

 

PS. No one ever mentions what happens to Thor when Superman punches him. Thor suffers from the Wonder Woman Problem. He takes world class damage from gigantic death rays, mega-punches, falling mountains, yet for some reason finds it necessary to use a tool to deflect bullets.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

PS. No one ever mentions what happens to Thor when Superman punches him. Thor suffers from the Wonder Woman Problem. He takes world class damage from gigantic death rays' date=' mega-punches, falling mountains, yet for some reason finds it necessary to use a tool to deflect bullets.[/quote']

 

I find that entirely ridiculous and console myself with the mental rationalization that Thor only uses Mjolnir to deflect bullets to psyche the living hell out of his opponents. (Note -- I freely admit this is a total fan-wank and has no canon status whatsoever.)

 

'Hey, I'm not just a big muscle dude, I'm so freaking badass with this thing that I can actually lightsaber bullets out of the damn air! Why don't you morons just start begging for mercy right now and save me the work?'

[Starlord]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Thor didn't have a chance -- after Supes got back up, he took it back up into Thor's face and started working his speed advantage for everything he could get. Thor never got a free phase to do a haymaker wind-up.

 

After all, Supes isn't stupid either -- he knew damn well that he didn't want to take any more hits like that again, so he started speedblitzing.

 

And note again that Thor said later in the series 'I know Superman's measure now... him and me ever have a rematch, he's going to get one fugly surprise right in the face.'

 

This version though makes it sound like Clark pretty much overwhelms Thor...yet out of all the thousands of battles Supes has fought he declares Thor to be possibly his toughest ever. To me that says knockdown, dragout slugfest ala Supes' battles against Doomsday and such.

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

My take on the issue remains the same as it has always been. I wrote this about a year ago.

 

...I guarantee that DC writers and Marvel writers got together and said. "Alright you can't make Spidey, Wolverine, or Cap look bad and We can't Make Batman, Superman or WonderWoman get egg on their face. Agreed? Agreed. hrumph, hrumph, hrumph, hrumph..."

 

 

Simply put you will make your Golden Goose look good in that situation. Thor's not a bankable 'frontline' Marvel property but Superman is the definition of that for DC. Just the way the industry is...

 

Thus Supes wins, always.

[austenandrews]

Re: Mjolnir

 

If you had a shield and someone threw a dirt clod at you, would you block it?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Correct. Much like the majority of fights that Superman has had with Martians, or more correctly the one remaining Green Martian, or as Kal likes to put it the "Single most powerful being on the face of the Earth!"

 

Hawksmoor

[austenandrews]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Thor didn't have a chance -- after Supes got back up, he took it back up into Thor's face and started working his speed advantage for everything he could get. Thor never got a free phase to do a haymaker wind-up.

 

After all, Supes isn't stupid either -- he knew damn well that he didn't want to take any more hits like that again, so he started speedblitzing.

Busiek specifically said Supes didn't resort to his speed advantage.