Mjolnir

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Busiek specifically said Supes didn't resort to his speed advantage.

 

 

You know AEO energy attacks, which Thor has in spades, handle speed advantages...verily.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Mjolnir

 

I would almost say that, because of the leverage and such, the hammer may apply what a normal warhammer gives. This, combined with Thor's strength, makes it a devistating attack. The whole point of making the hammer indestructable was to handle Thor's godly might, thus it could take a pounding that it delivers. The enchantments on it, besides the weather abilities, I would almost buy as Advantages. Things like AP, AE and Indirect would all be well for it

 

As for Thor vs. Supes? Bah ... Batman could beat them all

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

 

As for Thor vs. Supes? Bah ... Batman could beat them all

 

No, Bats would get trashed fight one then he'd come back and destroy both Supes and Thor at the same time having seen them fight once. He's cool like that.

[proditor]

Re: Mjolnir

 

The way it was written up in one of the old "Who's who" journals was something like this: "Superman has no greater defense against magical effects/attacks than a normal human."

 

So I take that to mean that Mjolnir hits Supes' Invulnerability. After all, we know what all of the enchantments are on the hammer, and not one of them increases damage. It doesn't need it. This thing is swung around be a guy who was at the center of a forming planet and managing to keep himself from being crushed by sheer muscle power (Thor vs. the Celestials, no issue reference as I don't remember honestly). So if you have a sword enchanted to cut through anything, Supes is in trouble as the spell is designed to counteract his invulnerability. Since Mjolnir does not have a "Greater Bashy!" enchantment, he will, as Chuckg said, go "Ow, that freakin' hurt!" but not scream as limbs are crushed instantly to powder.

 

I'll also agree that depending on the writer, laziness will creep in and suddenly vampires can pierce his skin (May you rot in the nether realms Mister Byrne, you lazy hack) and anything that had a Nystul's magic aura waved near it at some point can suddenly pwn Supes with ease. But then again....

 

Could he beat Firelord?

[Starlord]

Re: Mjolnir

 

If you had a shield and someone threw a dirt clod at you' date=' would you block it? [/quote']

 

Exactly, he blocks them simply because he can. It is pretty much all ranged attacks that he's ready for, so why not? I don't see Thor as having Superman type invulnerability, but I see him more as a damage sponge...he's just really, really tough. From a HERO standpoint, Thor has more damage reduction and Supes has more damage resistance (hardened, of course). Bullets and lasers probably sting a bit, so why let them. Although, I agree with Chuck that it's also a good setup for a PRE attack.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Busiek specifically said Supes didn't resort to his speed advantage.

 

True, he didn't go into superspeed mode and punch Thor thousands of times in an eyeblink -- which, given that Supes is 98+% as fast as the Flash, is a possible maneuver for him.

 

OTOH, even without his superspeed, Supes was still giving Thor an offensive rush, not giving Thor any opportunities to take Full Phase Maneuvers... such as haymaker wind-ups.

 

As for...

 

You know AEO energy attacks' date=' which Thor has in spades, handle speed advantages...verily.[/quote']

 

Thor's AoE lightning frag does less damage than directly attacking with Mjolnir's business end... and remember, Thor already knows that Supes is tough enough to take a good solid hit with the business end and come back for more. So unless he *knows* that Superman has a magic vulnerability, switching to the area frag is pointless. To put it in Champs terms -- it's like switching to your 12d6 Explosion EB vs. an opponent you've already seen survive a shot from your 20d6 EB. It's not usually a good idea.

 

So, Thor lost the fight because he wasn't allowed to use 'out-of-character' knowledge -- such as knowing exactly what Supes' vulnerabilities were.

 

By the end of the series, however, he'd figured them out.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Oh, BTW, I'd like to note that even in the fight Thor lost, he'd taken so much out of Superman that Supes was then cold-cocked by a coordinated attack from Iron Man, Wonder Man, and Warbird -- three people who normally shouldn't have been able to do more than nudge him.

 

So even in a fight where Thor had no idea of Supes vulnerabilities and never got a chance to launch his most devastating attacks, he *still* took Superman down to the 'just barely on his feet' level before dropping.

 

Thor didn't do too badly at all.

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

The way it was written up in one of the old "Who's who" journals was something like this: "Superman has no greater defense against magical effects/attacks than a normal human."

 

So I take that to mean that Mjolnir hits Supes Invulnerability. After all, we know what all of the enchantments are on the hammer, and not one of them increases damage. It doesn't need it. This thing is swung around be a guy who was at the center of a forming planet and managing to keep himself from being crushed by sheer muscle power (Thor vs. the Celestials, no issue reference as I don't remember honestly). So if you have a sword enchanted to cut through anything, Supes is in trouble as the spell is designed to counteract his invulnerability. Since Mjolnir does not have a "Greater Bashy!" enchantment, he will, as Chuckg said, go "Ow, that freakin' hurt!" but not scream as limbs are crushed instantly to powder.

 

I'll also agree that depending on the writer, laziness will creep in and suddenly vampires can pierce his skin (May you rot in the nether realms Mister Byrne, you lazy hack) and anything that had a Nystul's magic aura waved near it at some point can suddenly pwn Supes with ease. But then again....

 

Could he beat Firelord?

 

 

With that logic Thor could just fry supes with magic, and it really wouldn't be hard. Everyone forgets just how powerful Thor really is because Thor essentailly plays with kid gloves all of the time. Yes I know Superman does as well, but I don't know it its to the same extent. Thor has beaten, and I mean trashed Thanos in a fight toe to toe and Thanos is a galactically powerful uber-villian. Alot of that has to do with the fact that Thor knows Thanos can take, and give, a punch. Also remember that Thor has three levels of power that have been pretty neatly defined.

 

Regular Thor - Normal power level. Rarely uses Mjolnir to whack someone although will use it often to hit other objects, most notably projectiles. Never uses the blasts that Mjolnir is capable of and doesn't use his weather control powers(Which BTW make Storm's look sad).

 

"I say thee nay!" Thor - Ramping it up, he's pissed and he's letting you know. Alot of times storms rise up just to show you his mood and he uses Mjolnir alot more, particularly his choke smack whcih most people do not get up from. This is the level of power he goes to when someone around him is hurt, but not necessarily mortally, also he goes to this when he's had enough of a fight. Its rarely not enough.

 

"Ultron, we would have words with thee." Thor- Quite simply this version has never been beaten. This level of power has felled a celestial, this level of power has dropped Thanos, this level of power has put an unholy beating on Ultron, this level of power has made Adam Warlock cry like a girl, and this level of power is rarely, rarely, rarely used. In addition to this rank of power Thor has two items of magic he can use. His belt, which doubles his strength, and his gauntlets which help him 'unlock' more of the powers of Mjolnir, it also give him more access to the 'well of the all father', meaning he has more godly powers much like Odin.

 

Supes runs up against the second he's in for a world of hurt because Thor is willing to use his magic at that level. Supes runs up against the third he's done. That level of power makes Thor one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel universe, not just heroes. Supes is nasty, don't get me wrong, but when you're talking high end, and you have to in this siutation, Thor has got him.

[proditor]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Oh, BTW, I'd like to note that even in the fight Thor lost, he'd taken so much out of Superman that Supes was then cold-cocked by a coordinated attack from Iron Man, Wonder Man, and Warbird -- three people who normally shouldn't have been able to do more than nudge him.

 

So even in a fight where Thor had no idea of Supes vulnerabilities and never got a chance to launch his most devastating attacks, he *still* took Superman down to the 'just barely on his feet' level before dropping.

 

Thor didn't do too badly at all.

That's because Thor is THE MAN! (tm, pat pending).

 

On a side note, how strong is new ionic breeze Wonderman? Always liked Simon, he seemed suitably complex without (usually) becoming whiny.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

"Ultron' date=' we would have words with thee." Thor- Quite simply this version has never been beaten. This level of power has felled a celestial, this level of power has dropped Thanos, this level of power has put an unholy beating on Ultron, this level of power has made Adam Warlock cry like a girl, and this level of power is rarely, rarely, rarely used. In addition to this rank of power Thor has two items of magic he can use. His belt, which doubles his strength, and his gauntlets which help him 'unlock' more of the powers of Mjolnir, it also give him more access to the 'well of the all father', meaning he has more godly powers much like Odin.[/quote']

 

Umm, note, Adam Warlock usually smokes Thor -- even pissed-off Thor -- fairly regularly, it took 'Thor with Warriors' Madness *and* the Power Gem' to make Adam Warlock do the crying thing. This goes beyond even "Ultron, I would have words with thee." Just a detail. The rest of what you said, 99% accurate.

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Umm' date=' note, Adam Warlock usually smokes Thor -- even pissed-off Thor -- fairly regularly, it took 'Thor with Warriors' Madness *and* the Power Gem' to make Adam Warlock do the crying thing. This goes beyond even "Ultron, I would have words with thee." Just a detail. The rest of what you said, 99% accurate.[/quote']

 

 

Yeah that's right, I had forgotten that. Remember though Adam Warlock is an odd duck and Thor rarely knows what to expect. By that I mean Thor usually comes in not even expecting to fight, and yet...there it goes.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Anybody else seen this yet?

 

I love some of the side comments:

 

The prototypical DC Comics character is -- whether by nature (think Superman, here); accident (think Flash); determination (Batman); or commission (Green Lantern) -- so far above and removed from the ordinary constraints of common humanity, as to be well and truly something... other.

 

The prototypical Marvel Comics character, by way of comparison, is (very nearly always) One Who Has Been Exalted; only to end up sighing and pining for their long-lost humanity. (The Thing, longing for a return to the feelings and frailties of the flesh; Spider-Man, staggering under the accumulated tonweight of his own assumed, super-heroic responsibilities; the X-Men, chaffing jointly under the yoke of their own "mutant"-hood; etcetera, etcetera.)

 

Under meta-fictive constraints such as these, then: it remains highly unlikely that the keystone characters of the latter could ever, ever "measure up," battle-wise, to the (literally) Olympian standards of the former; failing, of course, the standard fanboyish gerrymandering of roster and rationale.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

The Thanos incident, also the Power Gem + Warriors' Madness thing. Normally, Thanos laughs Thor off. (Then again, that's no shame -- Thanos normally laughs off things that would put the Silver Surfer in the coma ward, he's just plain ridiculous that way.)

[proditor]

Re: Mjolnir

 

With that logic Thor could just fry supes with magic, and it really wouldn't be hard. Everyone forgets just how powerful Thor really is because Thor essentailly plays with kid gloves all of the time. Yes I know Superman does as well, but I don't know it its to the same extent. Thor has beaten, and I mean trashed Thanos in a fight toe to toe and Thanos is a galactically powerful uber-villian. Alot of that has to do with the fact that Thor knows Thanos can take, and give, a punch. Also remember that Thor has three levels of power that have been pretty neatly defined.

 

Regular Thor - Normal power level. Rarely uses Mjolnir to whack someone although will use it often to hit other objects, most notably projectiles. Never uses the blasts that Mjolnir is capable of and doesn't use his weather control powers(Which BTW make Storm's look sad).

 

"I say thee nay!" Thor - Ramping it up, he's pissed and he's letting you know. Alot of times stroms rise up just to show you his mood and he uses Mjolnir alot more, particularly his choke smack whcih most people do not get up from. This is the level of power he goes to when someone around him is hurt, but not necessarily mortally, also he goes to this when he's had enough of a fight. Its rarely not enough.

 

"Ultron, we would have words with thee." Thor- Quite simply this version has never been beaten. This level of power has felled a celestial, this level of power has dropped Thanos, this level of power has put an unholy beating on Ultron, this level of power has made Adam Warlock cry like a girl, and this level of power is rarely, rarely, rarely used. In addition to this rank of power Thor has two items of magic he can use. His belt, which doubles his strength, and his gauntlets which help him 'unlock' more of the powers of Mjolnir, it also give him more access to the 'well of the all father', meaning he has more godly powers much like Odin.

 

Supes runs up against the second he's in for a world of hurt because Thor is willing to use his magic at that level. Supes runs up against the third he's done. That level of power makes Thor one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel universe, not just heroes. Supes is nasty, don't get me wrong, but when you're talking high end, and you have to in this siutation, Thor has got him.

Wait a sec....

 

Now I dig my main shakespearean man, more than Big Blue, btw, but there are no other enchantments to unlock on Mjolnir. We've seen the list of enchantments Odin put on the hammer. If you mean his Unfettered Might attack, I think it's jobbing Thor to assume that it's based in his weapon and not the fact that he's, ya know, a god and all.

 

Iarn Greiper allows him to use the hammer regardless of how much energy he channels though it. It's more like a set of armor than a power conduit. As for Megingarder and his strength, sure it doubles it, but so what? That's only +5 active points. More seriously, it's almost ridicuous to talk about strength when post crisis "weak" superman has the great pyramid of cheops listed as his lift capacity (2 million stones, average weight, 2 tons each, 4 MILLION tons....). Doubling at the levels we're talking about is almost a non-issue for both combatants.

 

I have a question for chuckg though, I can't recall Thor ever charging the hammer with magic and then whacking someone with it, out side of the Unfettered Might haymaker of the Apocalypse. I've seen him shoot numerous pure magical blasts through it, but not charge and smack. Has he done that?

[OddHat]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Superman's power levels have always been all over the map; he also has the psych limits "Forgets his powers" and "Just stands there". Personally, I think it's the X-Ray and Telescopic vision. He'll be in the middle of a fight, when he notices a sunbathing eighteen year old in Brazil or a really hot junior college girl in Taipei. The villain can walk right up an stab him at merely-Human Speed with a Magic Pencil because Supes is using the full processing power of his Super Brain to come up with a better pick up line than "I'm Super, thanks for asking".

 

As to Superman vs Thor, Thor should lose battle #1 because he's just plain not as fast, strong, or tough as Superman. As soon as he figures out that his magic lightning will pass Supes defenses, he probably wins. However, that's only probably; Supes may still take more than one shot to kill, and that speed advantage is huge once Supes stops oggling Japanese school girls long enough to realize he needs it.

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

The Thanos incident' date=' also the Power Gem + Warriors' Madness thing. Normally, Thanos laughs Thor off. (Then again, that's no shame -- Thanos normally laughs off things that would put the Silver Surfer in the coma ward, he's just plain ridiculous that way.)[/quote']

 

 

No, I'm talking about sans power gem, I'll find the issues when I get home, but it was Thor, and Firelord vs.(I'm wanting to say Kurse) and Thanos. Thor broke out the gaunts and belt and gave him a whoopin' big time. Thanos even made the comment 'Ah Odinson I see you have finally come prepared to fight me, it is about time you learned I am not one of those terran bound insects you play with so often and seem to care so much for.'

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Wait a sec....

 

Now I dig my main shakespearean man, more than Big Blue, btw, but there are no other enchantments to unlock on Mjolnir. We've seen the list of enchantments Odin put on the hammer. If you mean his Unfettered Might attack, I think it's jobbing Thor to assume that it's based in his weapon and not the fact that he's, ya know, a god and all.

 

Iarn Greiper allows him to use the hammer regardless of how much energy he channels though it. It's more like a set of armor than a power conduit. As for Megingarder and his strength, sure it doubles it, but so what? That's only +5 active points. More seriously, it's almost ridicuous to talk about strength when post crisis "weak" superman has the great pyramid of cheops listed as his lift capacity (2 million stones, average weight, 2 tons each, 4 MILLION tons....). Doubling at the levels we're talking about is almost a non-issue for both combatants.

 

I have a question for chuckg though, I can't recall Thor ever charging the hammer with magic and then whacking someone with it, out side of the Unfettered Might haymaker of the Apocalypse. I've seen him shoot numerous pure magical blasts through it, but not charge and smack. Has he done that?

 

 

Uhhh you're wrong there, the gaunts help him channel the greater power of Mjolnir that he is unable to use without them. First time I remember them being used was when he fought Kurse while the Beyonder had souped up his powers. The gaunts allow Thor to use more of his powers than he could without them and more than one time has this been set forth.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Sometimes, the hammer head is glowing when Thor swings or throws it, and sometimes it's not.

 

An example would be FANTASTIC FOUR #28 (Claremont run, not the original), where Thor does a hammer toss that knocks an entire starship the size and general build of an Imperial Star Destroyer several hundred feet sideways. ISTR a bit of glowy thing on the end while he threw that one, but I am going from memory

 

Of course, said ship had been built by Doctor Doom, which is why the shields managed to just barely absorb the kinetic energy of the impact -- and then fire it all back into Thor's face, thus resulting in Thor being knocked back half a dozen zip codes away. He needed a couple pages to fly back.

 

But still, knocking something the size and build of an Imperial-II several hundred feet sideways and into a severe tilt before it managed to right itself, that's not shabby.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

No' date=' I'm talking about sans power gem, I'll find the issues when I get home, but it was Thor, and Firelord vs.(I'm wanting to say Kurse) and Thanos. Thor broke out the gaunts and belt and gave him a whoopin' big time. Thanos even made the comment 'Ah Odinson I see you have finally come prepared to fight me, it is about time you learned I am not one of those terran bound insects you play with so often and seem to care so much for.'[/quote']

 

Ummm, IIRC that wasn't Thanos -- it was a Thanosbot.

 

... yes, Starlin invented Thanosbots in a retcon later on to explain away several of Thanos' less impressive showings. (See INFINITY ABYSS).

 

I know, I know, it's very sad, but how else are you going to get rid of crap like Thanos supposedly jobbing to Ka-freakin'-Zar, of all people? (They did that too, once... ow, my poor thinking organs!)

[proditor]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Uhhh you're wrong there' date=' the gaunts help him channel the greater power of Mjolnir that he is unable to use without them. First time I remember them being used was when he fought Kurse while the Beyonder had souped up his powers. The gaunts allow Thor to use more of his powers than he could without them.[/quote']

I think we're now safely into semantics. Cuz when he fights the Midgaurd Serpent with the gloves and belt, it's pretty clear that the reason he needs the gloves is that he's releasing so much godly energy, not even he could survive it unscathed. Thus, he needs the gloves to protect him from his own energies.

 

I'll absolutely agree that without the gloves he cannot safely channel the levels he can channel with them on. I just disagree that he can't channel them period. But really, it's a side track and not all that germaine. And honestly, we'd probably get two different answers from Marvel anyway.

[Catacomb]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Ummm, IIRC that wasn't Thanos -- it was a Thanosbot.

 

... yes, Starlin invented Thanosbots in a retcon later on to explain away several of Thanos' less impressive showings. (See INFINITY ABYSS).

 

I know, I know, it's very sad, but how else are you going to get rid of crap like Thanos supposedly jobbing to Ka-freakin'-Zar, of all people? (They did that too, once... ow, my poor thinking organs!)

 

You're f'n kidding me? That was a great freaking fight too.

[austenandrews]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Post-Crisis' date=' Supes has gotten better, to the point where he's only a lot more vulnerable vs. magic, not totally puked out against it. (It does seem to vary -- [b']the more 'purely magical' something is, the less tough he is against it.[/b]

This is the best reconciliation I can see here. To me, the whole "Mjolner is magical but its blows aren't" bit is a dodge. However, it's easy to say that Mjolner's standards blows are less magical than its energy powers. Hence Superman can somewhat take the blows, but he'll get whupped by the lightning.

[Chuckg]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Catacomb -- Not kidding in the slightest bit, about either the Thanos-clones ("My own unique blend of clone, android, and mystical doppelganger") or about the Ka-zar thing.

 

To get rid of 'Thanos vs. Ka-zar, Thanos loses', I will accept Thanosbots. The alternative is just too sanity-blasting to contemplate.

 

(But Squirrel Girl still legitimately kicked his ***! )

[OddHat]

Re: Mjolnir

 

 

Supes runs up against the second he's in for a world of hurt because Thor is willing to use his magic at that level. Supes runs up against the third he's done. That level of power makes Thor one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel universe, not just heroes. Supes is nasty, don't get me wrong, but when you're talking high end, and you have to in this siutation, Thor has got him.

 

Supes, at full Silver Age power, is as fast as the Flash with Super Strength as a bonus. He throws planets and blows out stars. If we're talking about the silliest extremes of power that a writer has applied, Superman wins.

 

On the other hand, he's usually far from the most powerful being in the DCU, unless enjoying a massive writer-induced power up.

[proditor]

Re: Mjolnir

 

Sometimes, the hammer head is glowing when Thor swings or throws it, and sometimes it's not.

 

An example would be FANTASTIC FOUR #28 (Claremont run, not the original), where Thor does a hammer toss that knocks an entire starship the size and general build of an Imperial Star Destroyer several hundred feet sideways. ISTR a bit of glowy thing on the end while he threw that one, but I am going from memory

 

Of course, said ship had been built by Doctor Doom, which is why the shields managed to just barely absorb the kinetic energy of the impact -- and then fire it all back into Thor's face, thus resulting in Thor being knocked back half a dozen zip codes away. He needed a couple pages to fly back.

 

But still, knocking something the size and build of an Imperial-II several hundred feet sideways and into a severe tilt before it managed to right itself, that's not shabby.

Wouldn't it be nice if we had concrete explanations of this stuff? Then again, we could all go play a rules lite system and probably not care.

 

Yeah, I've seen the energy when he throws it a lot, but I always figured it was just atmospheric effects or lightning trails. Like when he throws the hammer into low orbit and then holds Loki by the throat and then reminds him that the hammer always returns to his hand...and over his shoulder Loki sees the Hammer burning with fire from re-entry...heh.. great bit there.