Creating Fire

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Creating Fire

 

I have no problem with your choice to use Tranformation. That's a perfectly valid construct.

 

For my own part, I am not going to write up a match as a Sticky 1 Pip RKA Uncontrolled Yadda Yadda linked to Images (for the light), Change Environment (for the heat) and several hundred Aids and Transformation attacks with very specific conditions for each (to cook food, boil water, temper metal, etc, etc). There comes a point as a GM where you have to apply common sense. "It's a match. You can start a fire with it."

I was simply trying to remain within the confines of what I was under the impression Jm0z wanted.

 

(So if it helps think of it as a "If you applied a torch for as long as you cast the spell for it would have the same effect)

Because a torch is 1 pip to 1d6, I felt a 1 pip power would be too weak.

 

Stupid flame wars... *wink*

[Cancer]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Spoon: 1d6 Transform Cereal Bowl to Empty Cereal Bowl' date=' linked to Life Support: No Need To Eat, 1 Continuing Charge lasts 20 Minutes and OH GOD PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!!!!!![/quote']

 

It takes you 20 minutes to eat a bowl of cereal? Ewwwww. Must get all mooshy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Creating Fire

 

It takes you 20 minutes to eat a bowl of cereal? Ewwwww. Must get all mooshy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually no, he is saying that a bowl of cereal only fills him for 20 minutes I think. You would have to eat 72 bowls a cereal a day on that right up in order to live.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Creating Fire

 

One thing regarding the "official writeup/example" in the book: It's an example.

 

All three methods presented here:

Super Squirrel's Transform

Gary's Change Environment

My RKA

 

Are perfectly valid examples/methods of doing the intended effect: Getting an object that is flammable to catch fire and burn until it runs out of fuel.

 

This is HERO, I'd be disappointed if we didn't come up with several ways of doing the same thing. I like all three methods - each has their merits, flavor and uses.

[McCoy]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Just use a lighter.

Summon Zippo lighter

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Oddhat: The real question isn't statting out the spoon, as much as the question is how much CP does it cost you to create a spoon? You make a spoon. It's a Multipower (0 range TK, whatever). Let's say making a spoon costs you one CP.

 

You make spoons for a living.

 

What if you made guns for a living? Where does the CP come from? I ran into the same problem in d20; who (if anyone) spends the CP to create Flashbangs for the government? My world has and uses flashbangs on a regular basis; they're actually much easier to model in HERO than they were in d20 - 6d6 Flash Sight, 6d6 Flash Sound, OAF, Independent, 1 charge. I could also (if I felt like it) include a delayed effect/trigger on it, but I'm not so vested in the system yet that I can do all those things off the top of my head.

 

You head down to the armory before going on your op. The usual weapons assortment is on the walls; Imperial Great Swords, Standard long blades, daggers, short bows, arrows, flash bangs, tangle foot bags, lanterns, oils, fireburst bombs, etc.

 

Who burned all the CP to get these items in here?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Actually no' date=' he is saying that a bowl of cereal only fills him for 20 minutes I think. You would have to eat 72 bowls a cereal a day on that right up in order to live.[/quote']

 

Pretty much.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Oddhat: The real question isn't statting out the spoon' date=' as much as the question is [i']how much CP does it cost you to create a spoon?[/i] You make a spoon. It's a Multipower (0 range TK, whatever). Let's say making a spoon costs you one CP.

 

You make spoons for a living.

 

What if you made guns for a living? Where does the CP come from? I ran into the same problem in d20; who (if anyone) spends the CP to create Flashbangs for the government? My world has and uses flashbangs on a regular basis; they're actually much easier to model in HERO than they were in d20 - 6d6 Flash Sight, 6d6 Flash Sound, OAF, Independent, 1 charge. I could also (if I felt like it) include a delayed effect/trigger on it, but I'm not so vested in the system yet that I can do all those things off the top of my head.

 

You head down to the armory before going on your op. The usual weapons assortment is on the walls; Imperial Great Swords, Standard long blades, daggers, short bows, arrows, flash bangs, tangle foot bags, lanterns, oils, fireburst bombs, etc.

 

Who burned all the CP to get these items in here?

 

This is getting into a really sticky area and one of my pet peeves.

 

Short answer: items don't cost CP to create, only to own.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Ew. I don't think I like that answer. I see where it makes sense, oddly enough, but I still don't like it. So a party wizard can equip everyone in the group, and it costs him nothing, but the group pays full pop in CP for something crafted for them? Yeargh...

 

Then, again, I'm running a heroic setting where cash replaces CP for most of these people; they aren't paying for their magic shields, or their enchanted blades (although they spend CP on the swords themselves to improve them, because that's the design of the swords).

 

*gurgle*

[Peregrine]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Equipment only costs points in Superheroic settings, and then only to be able to carry it regularly. Independent means you can let an ally (NPC follower or fellow PC) carry it regularly, though you paid the points for them to carry/use it. (It also means that it can be taken away by an agent of the GM, i.e. NPC.) In Heroic, equipment only costs money; point costs are used to present the relative power level of one item vs. another. (Magic items are not equipment in this sense, usually; they count as powers (spells) bought through a focus. This keeps them rare, usually.)

 

The Equipment Room you describe works as follows:

 

In a Heroic game, somebody bought the gear with money.

 

In a Superheroic game, it's the ubiquitous Armory for a gear VPP or Equipment Allowance, i.e., it's a Special Effect.

[OddHat]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Oddhat: The real question isn't statting out the spoon' date=' as much as the question is [i']how much CP does it cost you to create a spoon?[/i] You make a spoon. It's a Multipower (0 range TK, whatever). Let's say making a spoon costs you one CP.

 

You make spoons for a living.

 

What if you made guns for a living? Where does the CP come from? I ran into the same problem in d20; who (if anyone) spends the CP to create Flashbangs for the government? My world has and uses flashbangs on a regular basis; they're actually much easier to model in HERO than they were in d20 - 6d6 Flash Sight, 6d6 Flash Sound, OAF, Independent, 1 charge. I could also (if I felt like it) include a delayed effect/trigger on it, but I'm not so vested in the system yet that I can do all those things off the top of my head.

 

You head down to the armory before going on your op. The usual weapons assortment is on the walls; Imperial Great Swords, Standard long blades, daggers, short bows, arrows, flash bangs, tangle foot bags, lanterns, oils, fireburst bombs, etc.

 

Who burned all the CP to get these items in here?

 

In a campaign where you don't spend points for equipment, no one burned any points to put it there. This only becomes a problem in campaigns where you do spend points on equipment, and start asking how much of the player's equipment he really needs to spend points on. How much is "fair"?

 

I don't stat it out, but if I did I'd take a page from Dark Champions and say that everyone has, for free, X Points of equipment that they can carry with them at any given time as a sort of unwritten VPP, only changes in store. That equipment must have the Real Tech (-1/4) limit, and most of it should have at least an additional -1 in limits including Focus (excepting vehicles and bases). Everyone has the same free points, which is as "fair" as I feel like getting. If you want better gear, you pay points for it.

 

In game, I just use the not-in-combat / Walmart rule. Any equipment you don't spend points on should not be used in combat in Superheroic campaigns; if it is, expect it to get broken quickly.

 

In the end, the math allows us to model the world in which our stories take place, but the math is not the world.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Thanks to all y'all for the further input. Notes made, thinking will ensue.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Ew. I don't think I like that answer. I see where it makes sense' date=' oddly enough, but I still don't [i']like it[/i]. So a party wizard can equip everyone in the group, and it costs him nothing, but the group pays full pop in CP for something crafted for them? Yeargh...

 

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Consider also: they don't have to pay points themselves, but if they don't you get to take them away at any time.

 

That aside, it's easy to limit the creation of magic items. Just say that it takes a month. Fantasy Hero suggests something like one day or one week per 10 Active Points. It can also cost rare materials, END, money, concentration, time away from other things.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Oh, actual item creation is going to be a bear, requiring all sorts of skill rolls, Prerequisites, items, etc. I haven't fully fleshed the system yet, but building anything will take time, money and the appropriate workshop (leather workers saddle, forge, various carving implements, etc.)

 

I expect to levy similar penalties on magic spell design. CAN they design spells? YES. Do they have to research them first? Oh my, yes.

 

In so far as magic items, I expect them to gain & lose all sorts of things. I want that option well open to me. I also don't want them burning tons of points on gear; it's a Heroic setting, not a high fantasy one. I'm particularly curious to see how the wizard stats out his Familiar, though.

[OddHat]

Re: Creating Fire

 

In so far as magic items, I expect them to gain & lose all sorts of things. I want that option well open to me. I also don't want them burning tons of points on gear; it's a Heroic setting, not a high fantasy one. I'm particularly curious to see how the wizard stats out his Familiar, though.

 

Usually it's best to do a Familiar as a Follower.

 

Zornwil once made a thoughtful post arguing that points determine how much control the player has over part of their character as opossed to the GM. The GM, at any time, can make a character vastly powerful or completely powerless, incredibly rich or dirt poor. That's his right as GM, though the players can always decide to leave. Spending points on something like a car or gun or energy blast is a way for the player to say to the GM "I'd like my character to be able to do this". If the player pays full points with no limits, the GM should probably let the character use that effect whenever and wherever the player wants, with very few exceptions. If the player decides to tack on limits, he gives up more and more control to the GM, down to the -2 level of No Conscious Control where the player has given almost full control of the ability away.

 

Not a bad way to look at it. If the player has spent no points on his equipment, that equipment is there only as long as the GM wants it to be there, and can only function as well as the GM chooses to allow. If the player wants a bit more control, he needs to spend a few more points.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Also a great example.

 

Thanks again, Oddhat!

[Rapier]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Who burned all the CP to get these items in here?

 

The short answer is noone.

 

CP works real well on a small basis, say for a single character or even a group of characters. However, you cannot model an economic theory or marketplace on CP. Somewhere in the background there is a conversion from $ to CP.

 

FlashBangs Inc has $x. Their factory processes $ to CP and creates FlashBangs. Your characters "recharge" their FlashBang charges through a system of resupply...this is usually one of the initial questions I ask a player when I see something like this on their sheet. Where are you going to get reloads?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Creating Fire

 

To get (momentarily) back to fire lighting, (and with a tip of the hat to McCoy's 'summon Zippo'), one possible way to do it is with a superskill: Survival (only for lighting fires -2) and ranged (+1/2), would cost 1 point, and allow you to, well, light fires at range with a skill roll. Being a superskill you probably don't need all the normal firelighting equipment like kindling and flints and so on. I quite like this approach because:

 

1. It has quite a fiddly feel I associate with cantrippy magic spells.

 

2. You can't really use it for anything else, like causing damage.

[Sean Waters]

Where does all the equipment come from?

 

Equipment is a special case. Everyone who has a manufacturing PS has spent a small part of the skill cost contributing to the Universal Pool of Equipment Points. Maybe 1/10 of a point. The trade off is that they can then dip into the pool when they need to.

 

The UPEP is basically a way of modelling all those items that all the people manufacturing them make.

 

Now say we are talking about flashbang grenades, 6d6 sight and hearing flash in an OAF costs 24 points, so we need 240 manufacturers to make one flashbang grenade, but as you can get twice as much equipment for +5 points, another 50 will get you two grenades, and another 1000 will get you an extra 1 million grenades. So if there are 1240 people with PS: Flashbang grenade manufaturer in the world there can be a million free floating grenades at any one time that any one of them can dip intot he pool to create.

 

Of course it is more complex as you don't buy PS: Flashbang grenade manufacturer, you buy PS Weaponsmith so what you are doing is building a million one slot VPPs - what the slot is being decided at the time of manufacture.

 

Of course there are more than a million weapons in the world, but some pay for their own and there are also a lot more than 1240 people with PS: Weaponsmith.

 

Please feel free to apply to any other field of human endeavour, or at least, manufacture, if you feel you really need to.....

[Mentor]

Re: Creating Fire

 

I'm with Ghost Angel here. It's a damn fire. Hit a flamable object with hot enough flame for a few seconds' date=' and it should catch fire. Demanding anything more complicated than an ED EB or KA with a Fire SFX for this is the same kind of silliness that has people statting out spoons.[/quote']

Pre-xactly!

[JmOz]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Thank you all for your imput.

 

I decide on a .5d6 Minor Transform

 

The reason I did not go with the RKA is simple, the primary purpose of an RKA is to damage, while the primary purpose of this is to make fire. I beleive in getting to the root of the issue, and a Minor Transform seemed the best way to me

 

I do agree that this is something an F/X should be able to do, but I feel that "banking" on what an F/X should do for the intended purpose of the power is wrong

 

Put another way, if the question was I want to ignite people on fire how do I do it, the answer would have required contionus, uncontrolable, etc..., even though a fire blast should in theory be able to do it anyways...

 

Thank you again for all the help I appreciate it.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Creating Fire

 

Well, setting PEOPLE on fire is a lot tougher than igniting a properly-built campfire or a puddle of lamp oil. We're made mostly of water and don't burn very well. If that's what you're looking to do, then a 1-pip RKA is definitely not going to do it. It might, or might not, set someone's clothes on fire a little bit. To guarantee a "screaming alpha", I'd use a Continuous, Uncontrolled attack.

 

Zeropoint