Cyberpunk Hero?

[zakueins]

Next big genre book?

 

What would you want to see in it? What sort of cyberpunk, from classic "the world sucks and we're all gonna DIE, but we get neat toys" to existential angst...

 

And, how much would you pay...

[hancock.tom]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

Next big genre book?

 

What would you want to see in it? What sort of cyberpunk, from classic "the world sucks and we're all gonna DIE, but we get neat toys" to existential angst...

 

And, how much would you pay...

 

It looks like Cyber will be the next one, though PA came very close. If past genre books are any indication, I am sure we will get "all of the above" in regards to the sorts of cyberpunk covered. The "what would you want to see" thread won't be up for a while, but aside from the obvious coverage of the genre, I would like to see a little section on nanotechnology and perhaps some computer rules or hacking rules of some sort.

 

I'd be willing to pay whatever it is worth. If its sized like Pulp Hero, I'd be willing to pay like $50, but it will probably cost $34.99. It could be smaller, and come in at the $27 mark, but I'm guessing it will be Pulp Hero sized and come in at $34.99.

 

I hope Steve throws in a little setting with it, ala Pulp Hero. Pulp's history and timelines served as "building blocks" for GM to build setting with. I don't know how feasible it would be with a genre as diverse as Cyber, but I loved it in Pulp.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

I wouldn't say it looks like Cyber will be the next big one. The Poll up in the Discussion Group is not an absolute, or even good, indicator.

 

While I wouldn't mind it coming out in 2006 or 2007, I think there are better and more interesting genre's to make the Big Gencon Release. Especially considering the glut of cyber games out there...

 

But this is just one man's opinion.

[zakueins]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

I'd agree-and also would add fixes to the problems of "the hacker always seems to nice and safe while we get shot at" (even with software that can turn their brain to rice crispies) and some of the other genre conventions that make it hard to RPG in the system.

 

It looks like Cyber will be the next one, though PA came very close. If past genre books are any indication, I am sure we will get "all of the above" in regards to the sorts of cyberpunk covered. The "what would you want to see" thread won't be up for a while, but aside from the obvious coverage of the genre, I would like to see a little section on nanotechnology and perhaps some computer rules or hacking rules of some sort.

 

I'd be willing to pay whatever it is worth. If its sized like Pulp Hero, I'd be willing to pay like $50, but it will probably cost $34.99. It could be smaller, and come in at the $27 mark, but I'm guessing it will be Pulp Hero sized and come in at $34.99.

 

I hope Steve throws in a little setting with it, ala Pulp Hero. Pulp's history and timelines served as "building blocks" for GM to build setting with. I don't know how feasible it would be with a genre as diverse as Cyber, but I loved it in Pulp.

[Steve Long]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

It looks like Cyber will be the next one, though PA came very close.

 

At the risk of being accused of muddying the waters for my own sick fun, remember that the poll is in no way binding. Just because CH and PAH are the top vote-getters doesn't mean we're guaranteed to do 'em. It definitely makes us pay more attention, though -- the same way HH's strong showing in last year's poll did.

[Steve Long]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

I hope Steve throws in a little setting with it, ala Pulp Hero. Pulp's history and timelines served as "building blocks" for GM to build setting with. I don't know how feasible it would be with a genre as diverse as Cyber, but I loved it in Pulp.

 

Pulp (and any other historical) has the benefit of coming with a built-in setting by its very nature. Fictional genres don't do that. It's unlikely that we'd include a setting in a genre book, or at least not a fully-developed one -- three or five "mini-settings" would be more likely, to showcase the possibilities of the genre. And even that would depend on page space in the book; FH, for example, couldn't have absorbed another 100 pages of material.

[Susano]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

1) I'd like to see Cyber Hero contain several types of netrunning -- ranging from modern day command line interface type stuff (a.k.a. pure skill versus skill cracking/hacking) to Shadowrun-ish personas to Matrix-ish "let's bend the laws of reality" in the Net.

 

2) I'd like to see some sensible cyberware rules -- the old Cyber Hero rules were more than a little silly. Also, a clear idea of what "Restrainable" means when dealing with cybernetics, as well as ways to shut down cyber (such as EMP devices and the like).

 

3) Let's give a nod to Japan and their take on cyberpunk. As seen in Ghost in the Shell and the like, you can have androids, cyborgs, and all sorts of high-end data hacking going on. The original Ghost in the Shell had wireless transmission of data, and since many people had "cyberbrains" installed, you could pull such stunts as Mind Control, Telepathy, Mind Scanning, and Force Wall, all defined as various forms of data attacks and barriers.

 

4) A little one Steampunk and the like. Perfect examples are Girl Genius and Full Metal Alchemist -- both have androids, cyberware, and questions of humanity in the face of technology. Girl Genius is more Pulp-ish, though, which its weird science and the like.

 

5) Allow for PCs to be more than 150 points. Cyberpunk -- at least in some forms -- results in characters who easily push into the 200-300 point range. If there are any sample NPCs, show some built on higher than a 75-point base.

 

6) Hmm... that's all I have at the moment.

[Rapier]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

5) Allow for PCs to be more than 150 points. Cyberpunk -- at least in some forms -- results in characters who easily push into the 200-300 point range. If there are any sample NPCs' date=' show some built on higher than a 75-point base.[/quote']

 

No genre is point specific. You can very easily play some SuperHeroic Fantasy characters, Galacticly Heroic Dark Champions characters etc. You may have to spend a little more time with prep work and more carefully choose opponents but all are valid constructs.

 

Simply because MOST Fantasy or DC characters run between 150 and 250 doesn't mean that they MUST. As you've already seen, with cyberware and spells it is very easy to run into characters that are EXTREMELY point heavy for your average NCM characters.

[Susano]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

No genre is point specific. You can very easily play some SuperHeroic Fantasy characters, Galacticly Heroic Dark Champions characters etc. You may have to spend a little more time with prep work and more carefully choose opponents but all are valid constructs.

 

Simply because MOST Fantasy or DC characters run between 150 and 250 doesn't mean that they MUST. As you've already seen, with cyberware and spells it is very easy to run into characters that are EXTREMELY point heavy for your average NCM characters.

 

Sure, but the xyz HERO books have ben pretty consistent with their sample heroes. Supers are 200+150 and non supers are 75+75. Granted Pulp Hero does mention having characters built on more than 75 base, but it didn't show any (NPC villains don't count). And the genre-by-genre characters in 5th Ed. Revised all follow this pattern. I think only Dark Champions didn't do this with the sample PC team.

 

So I was just saying that it would be nice to see a sample PC built on a higher point scale.

[Dauntless]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

Begin nitpicking....

First off, I think Cyberhero, while being more of a household name, is inferior to calling it Transhuman hero or if you want to get esoteric Extropian Hero.

 

Yeah yeah, I know, it'll sound too much like Transhuman from SJ Games, but so what? It fits the bill better. Transhuman encompasses all technologies that will extend the capabilities of humans. Cyberpunk, which has its roots in the 80's has a much different feel and flavor. Cyberpunk deals almost entirely in mechanical/electronic augmentation, with perhaps the rare "juicer/roider" augmentation. Moreover, we can't neglect the "punk" part of the term.

 

Being born in the 80's, cyberpunk deals with the idea of meganational corps eventually ousting the need for Governments. While some may argue that having contractors in the Government has borne this out, if anything, quite the opposite has happened.

 

Transhumanism on the other hand deals with the question, "What does it mean to be human?" when you've got things like AI, androids, uplifted animals, and augmented humans who virtually cease to look like humans. It's an exploration of social issues. It's a case of technological progressives vs. Luddites. In exceeding the limitations of humanity, do we become something less than human? What happens to those humans unfortunate enough to not have access to any enhancements? Instead of dealing with super national megacorps, it deals with technology-haves vs. technology-have nots.

 

So I say we leave Cyberpunk behind as a niche field of science fiction that has evolved into Extropian transhumanism. Extropy has no leanings. It could be a dystopia or a utopia (unlike Cyberpunk, which by default is a mild dystopia). It could be peaceful or warlike. It could be run by government sponsorship or corporations. In essence, it is a broad idea that isn't as constrictive as the term cyberpunk.

...end nitpicking

[Susano]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

I just started watching Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex and I'm loving it. Cyberbrains, cyborgs, androids, it has it all! Personally, this is what I want in my "cyberpunk" setting.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

My God I hate the word "transhumanism"

 

sorry.. not to pick on you or the current "incarnation" of CPism, but I really hate that stupid word. And what you describe as "transhumanism" is what Cyberpunk had been dealing with all along BTW.

[Dauntless]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

Well, Cyberpunk isn't even really the first sub-genre to explore the ideas of what post-humans would be like. In fact, the first recorded usage of the term "transhuman" or "transumanare" (italian) was in Dante Alighieri's "Divine Inferno".

 

I think Cyberpunk relates to a niche set, it is in effect a subset of Transhumanism. So I think it's just not a good idea to use the term since it already hedges in the possibilities. While it probably has a bigger mindshare in many people, it also comes with it a set of preconceived ideas about what "Cyberpunk" means depending on who you talk to. Talk to older foggies like me, and we think William Gibson or Walter Scott Williams. Talk to younger folks, and they might thing Greg Egan (whom I'd call post-human) or something like Ghost in the Shell (which I also would firmly call Transhumanism as it hardly has any of the "punk" element). The term Transhuman, being newer, wouldn't have all the preconceived baggage surrounding it.

 

Me personally, I'd use the word Extropy (the opposite of entropy). It has a catchy ring and it basically is the philosophical side of Transhumanism. The only downside is that it connotes a utopian mindset. On the plus side, people won't relate it to Transhuman from SJ Games.

 

Sticking with using the term Cyberpunk to define the kinds of issues of technologies, social issues and possibilities of the near future is kind of like calling all comic book superhero genre settings, "4 Color Comic Hero". It doesn't do justice to the modern storytelling of "Iron Age" comic book storytelling.

 

But that's just me. I mean I hate it when people say TO-MAH-TO (it's TO-MAY-TO dang it!!)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

Cyberpunk.

Futureshock.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

Just not Transhuman HERO. I think the title alone would set me off, I'm with Ghost-Angel on this, and his little red shirt. Cyberpunk (as we all know I prefer a little magic with my tech, but I won't sully the thread more than necessary) as a genre is what I would consider to be the controlling point. Not the other way round.

 

And the Divine Comedy didn't really deal with the effects of machine on man, although one can easily make the argument that it is an indepth look at the intricacies of the human soul from Dante's perspective, each ring being not a form of punishment, but allegorical of the state of man. This is in part a genre convention, and also in part a story telling convention. I could create a tower called "the Devil's Legs" that reach into the atmosphere and reference it - would that make the story transhumanistic because I did so?

 

No, it would simply be a nod at a variation on a theme. One of the things that I know I'm looking forward to in CyberHERO (or whatever Steve calls it) is the absurd amount of research I know he's going to do, so I'm not nearly as concerned with whether or not Transhumanism is mentioned, it's a fair bet that it will be.

 

If you really want to see the concept looked at from a Cyberpunk perspective, I suggest Transmetropolitan. Spider Jerusalem is the "voice" of the author in a revised version of The Divine Comedy as he picks apart the absolute absurdity of his world and his attempts to attack it, pray for it, all the while hating it. Transmet is Spider's personal Hell.

[Susano]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

May I point out the book will likely be called "Cyber Hero," not "Cyberpunk Hero." WHile "cyber" might be a little dated, it does have an easy recognition factor, and anyone seeing "Cyber Hero" will instantly know what the book is covering.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

Yes, but one tends to flow with the other. I just want total coverage of the genre, from anime through angst.

[Dauntless]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

I wonder why everyone has something against Transhuman?

 

Is it because it doesn't lack the name recognition?

Is it because it feels too associated with SJ Games Transhuman?

Is it because it sounds too fancy-pants for a RPG?

 

While I admit that Cyberpunk has an immediate name-recognition, I think it'd still be good to have something else evocative of the flavor, but isn't tied down to the standard tropes which cyberpunk is defined by.

 

Of course, this is all up to Steve, but me personally, I think it'd be cool to have something other than the blatantly obvious Cyber Hero as the books moniker.

 

I actually like Ghost-Angel's suggestion of Future Shock...though Future Shock Hero doesn't exactly roll off the tongue I still think Transhuman Hero sounds catchy, but even Posthuman Hero or Extropian Hero sounds nifty to me. Cyber Hero will of course do the job, but it just sounds so......mundane and uninspired.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

My beef with Transhumanism is that it's a defined movement, one I would rather not have my game associated with. It's a matter of philosophical difference, not simply "That name sucks." I disagree with the extremes transhumanists are willing to take, hence, I find it somewhat offensive.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

May I point out the book will likely be called "Cyber Hero' date='" not "Cyberpunk Hero." WHile "cyber" might be a little dated, it does have an easy recognition factor, and anyone seeing "Cyber Hero" will instantly know what the book is covering.[/quote']

HEY! Get that logic outta here! This a Gaming Discusion Board!

 

...Why I don't like Transhumanism (especially for CPish things)

 

1) It's a philosophy.

2) It's a philosophy that predates what CP was exploring, though they overlap they are not the same. CP Was not exploring the next step of humanity, it was exploring what was happened to them as society and technology went on and humanities basic inability to adapt as quickly as things changed. (to be simplistic)

3) It's not a genre, it's a concept.

4) Mirror Shades are much cooler with the word Cyber near them.

[Susano]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

4) Mirror Shades are much cooler with the word Cyber near them.

 

Word.

[Dauntless]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

Speaking of game discussion, how exactly would you handle characters that could:

 

1) Essentially upgrade themselves all the time? I.e. downloadable skills, new nano-inserts, muscle implants, new shells or cyberframes, etc.

2) Be essentially immortal (if you buy into downloadable consciousness)?

 

For problem 1, do you simply make the character pay for these changes/upgrades with money, and disregard CP's? But what if the character can change "on the fly"? For example with adaptable swarm AI nanites? Do you just give him a Nanite Variable Power Pool, with appropriate restrictions (most likely a time limitation, charge limitation, and possibly a requirement or skill knowledge roll)?

 

For problem 2, this seems much trickier to handle. I suppose you could have some weird form of Duplication. How would anyone handle this?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

For the first... best adaption I've seen of that concept is Killer Shrike's MetaCyber Site.

 

For the second.. Life Support: Immortality, Must Download Conciousness into Appropriate Machine/Human.

 

Possibly with Multiple Foci and Extra Time if you're trying to emulate Freejack.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

I actually like Ghost-Angel's suggestion of Future Shock...though Future Shock Hero doesn't exactly roll off the tongue I still think Transhuman Hero sounds catchy, but even Posthuman Hero or Extropian Hero sounds nifty to me. Cyber Hero will of course do the job, but it just sounds so......mundane and uninspired.

 

All of the genre books are pretty mundanely titled, except Champions. It's highly probable that the book for this genre will be called "Cyber Hero". Future Shock, the Posthuman Age, and the Extropian Age all sound like good setting book titles, though.

[tgrandjean]

Re: Cyberpunk Hero?

 

Speaking of game discussion, how exactly would you handle characters that could:

 

1) Essentially upgrade themselves all the time? I.e. downloadable skills, new nano-inserts, muscle implants, new shells or cyberframes, etc.

2) Be essentially immortal (if you buy into downloadable consciousness)?

 

For problem 1, do you simply make the character pay for these changes/upgrades with money, and disregard CP's? But what if the character can change "on the fly"? For example with adaptable swarm AI nanites? Do you just give him a Nanite Variable Power Pool, with appropriate restrictions (most likely a time limitation, charge limitation, and possibly a requirement or skill knowledge roll)?

 

For problem 2, this seems much trickier to handle. I suppose you could have some weird form of Duplication. How would anyone handle this?

 

Heh, well the first at least was addressed in the old CyberHero: either just pay cash, charge points, or some combination of the two w/ a usual divisor of 1 (for small amounts of Cyber) to 2 or more (more 'ware). Depending on feel, I also like charging a hidden Disad, cumulative so that the players develop creeping Psy disads as well as possible Physical disads. ... Just fun stuff.

 

For the second, Duplication is one route. Also, Transform (physical and mental) is another costly route. Either has it's advantages.