Vorsch Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Having just picked up 5th revised, im slightly at a loss why the official way of buying regen dosent include continuous as its a instant power, or for that matter always on -0. Also there seem alot of "You cant do this mentality to the system", well i knew i wasent going to be happy when i bought it...... but i did buy it in the end, ah the slippery slope..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: generation / Healing A lot of things leave me at a loss. However, if you take REC, and add a custom advantage to move it up the time chart at +1/4 per step, I believe you'll find that at the point where it recovers BODy every turn, it is up to 10 pts per pt of REC : same as the old Regeneration. Lucius Alexander And a Megascale Interdimensional Palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing Having just picked up 5th revised, im slightly at a loss why the official way of buying regen dosent include continuous as its a instant power, or for that matter always on -0. Also there seem alot of "You cant do this mentality to the system", well i knew i wasent going to be happy when i bought it...... but i did buy it in the end, ah the slippery slope..... The requirements for Persistent do not include being Continuous. It can be applied to powers that are Constant or Instant (Healing being Instant) provided that they do not cost END. Continuous would be required (instead of Persistent) if you were attempting to model soemthing like "Regeneration For Others" as Continuous" big advantage over Persistent is that it elliminates the need to additional Attack rolls (no attack roll needed when Healing yourself). Persistent and Continuous are mutually exclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: generation / Healing A lot of things leave me at a loss. However, if you take REC, and add a custom advantage to move it up the time chart at +1/4 per step, I believe you'll find that at the point where it recovers BODy every turn, it is up to 10 pts per pt of REC : same as the old Regeneration. Lucius Alexander And a Megascale Interdimensional Palindromedary I like this approach for two reasons: 1 It just seems to work out nicely 2 It makes it far more awkward to build 'regeneration for others' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing The requirements for Persistent do not include being Continuous. It can be applied to powers that are Constant or Instant (Healing being Instant) provided that they do not cost END. Continuous would be required (instead of Persistent) if you were attempting to model soemthing like "Regeneration For Others" as Continuous" big advantage over Persistent is that it elliminates the need to additional Attack rolls (no attack roll needed when Healing yourself). Persistent and Continuous are mutually exclusive. Erm...have to disagree there... Persistent stops a power turning off if you are KO'd or whatever and can only be bought for 0 END powers. Continuous (or constant) allow a power to work over several phases without a new attack roll. They can be used together. Persistent is only useful for constant powers - instant powers have to be activeated for each use, so persistent would not help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing I admire the sentiment that lead the designers to try and make regeneration part of the 'healing' power but I don't think it works in practice. It should be 0 END persistent continuous healing (which would cost 30 ap) and with the limitations as quoted would then cost 11 points per pip. It should also be useable every turn (i.e. it should not be using the 'extra time LIMITATION as an advantage), an extra +2, for a 50 active point power. Then you can apply limitations (self only and standard effect: 1 BODY: both -1/2) for 25 points per pip. It is times like this when I really wish that design philosophy WAS discussed, becasue I can not see why it is done the way it is. The other thing you have to bear in mind is the COST of advantages and limitations - as regeneration is no longer a 10 point base power advantages and limitations work off whatever the base points are, as modified by the 'compulsary' advantages and limitations, which makes cost progression a nightmare: regenerating 1 point per turn and 1 point per minute cost the same under the present system. Furthermore.... Sorry; bit of a hobby horse.... Edited following Gary's correction of the advantage of reducing one month to one turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing Erm...have to disagree there... Persistent stops a power turning off if you are KO'd or whatever and can only be bought for 0 END powers. Continuous (or constant) allow a power to work over several phases without a new attack roll. They can be used together. Persistent is only useful for constant powers - instant powers have to be activeated for each use, so persistent would not help. Everyone is entitles to their opinion, but your's does not agree with the published rules. Persistent: An Instant or Constant Power with this +1/2 advantage becomes a Persistent Power. (5th Edition revised, pg 257) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing Everyone is entitles to their opinion, but your's does not agree with the published rules. Persistent: An Instant or Constant Power with this +1/2 advantage becomes a Persistent Power. (5th Edition revised, pg 257) Oh I know what it says, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense: it remains turned on even if the character is unconscious. Instant powers are only turned on in the instant that are activated, lasting only long enough to make an attack roll (p 96) - so you are either conscious or not when you activate it: if you are it works, if you are not you can't activate it: either way, persistent is pointless for an instant power that does not ALSO have continuous. SO, yes, you CAN apply it to an instant power, but only if you've made it constant with the continuous advantage, or at least that is the only time you would ever see any advantage from doing so...(except in the misconceived instanceof turning healing into regeneration) Mind you I might be wrong: when would you use persistent on an instant power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: generation / Healing A lot of things leave me at a loss. However, if you take REC, and add a custom advantage to move it up the time chart at +1/4 per step, I believe you'll find that at the point where it recovers BODy every turn, it is up to 10 pts per pt of REC : same as the old Regeneration. Lucius Alexander And a Megascale Interdimensional Palindromedary It's 8 steps up the time chart to get from 1 month to 1 turn. At +1/4 per level, that would be 6 pts per pip. I think you want +1/2 per level in order to get a final cost of 10 pts. Also, I assume you would handle Resurrection and Limbs as an Adder just like regular Regeneration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: generation / Healing Besides the very complicated Modifiers used to build the new Regeneration, what irks me most about it is that it violates the rule about the maximum amount of a Characteristic that can be Healed based on the number of dice of Healing that you buy. Regeneration does not have a maximum; it eventually restores full Body to a user regardless of how little was bought for it, and there's nothing in the official build that would account for this difference. Why go to all the trouble of modifying something according to the official rules, if the result is an exception to those rules anyway? Practically speaking, I don't see why we couldn't have had Regeneration still be subset of Healing, but just work differently. After all, that's exactly the relationship between Succor and Aid. You probably could modify Aid to function like Succor does, but would it be worth the effort? (In case you're wondering, I've decided to use 4E Regeneration in my games, with the additional Adders and Limitations for 5E Healing. It tends to cost more, but the simplicity is worth it to me and my players.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing What bugs me is that it could easily be built with Healing using the (semi-?)official Reset Time Advantage. Which I don't care for much, but it works. I like the REC idea, myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing A case for Abuso-Man RECOVERY AURA 1 point of REC (2 points) Recovers BODY once per turn rather than once per month (+2) UAA +1 Area Effect (one hex) +1/2 Doubles area (x 3: 8" radius) +3/4 Selective +1/4 2x5.5=11 points to allow self and all allies within 8" to recover 1 BODY per turn and all allies increase their REC by 1 for STUN and END. Cool huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: generation / Healing I like this approach for two reasons: 1 It just seems to work out nicely 2 It makes it far more awkward to build 'regeneration for others' Depends. If you go with it as a straight build like that, it's actually very CHEAP to slap "Usable on Others" on it - the Base Cost is like 2 for 1 pt of REC. If you redefine it as its own Power as per the rules for creating new powers, you have to use a Base Cost of 10. Of course, if you really, really don't want to allow it at all, you can Just Say No. Lucius Alexander Inevitable Palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: generation / Healing It's 8 steps up the time chart to get from 1 month to 1 turn. At +1/4 per level, that would be 6 pts per pip. I think you want +1/2 per level in order to get a final cost of 10 pts. Also, I assume you would handle Resurrection and Limbs as an Adder just like regular Regeneration. Oops. Thanks for catching that. Yes, I agree with the idea of using "Regrow Limbs" as an adder. Lucius Alexander (-: :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shike019 Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 points If I read the rules correctly, this is how it is supposed to be built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing Healing 1 BODY' date=' Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) [b']Real Cost: 7 points[/b] If I read the rules correctly, this is how it is supposed to be built. According to my copy of FREd, you're right. It doesn't bother me too much that it's 7 pts per BODY; sure 5 pts would be nicer, and 10 pts would be more even, but I'll live. The important thing to remember is to never ever do what the 4th ed example suggested, because that would be stupid. The 4th ed example, IIRC, had you buying 5 BODY of Regen every 5 minutes. Show of hands for everyone who can see the flaw here. To use the FREd version to ilustrate my point. Healing 5 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (100 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 5 Minutes (-1 3/4), Self Only (-1/2) (31 Real Points) versus Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Minute (-1 1/2), Self Only (-1/2) (7 Real Points) I still have no idea why anyone would do this, aside from trying to make it fit in an EC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing Healing 5 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (100 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 5 Minutes (-1 3/4), Self Only (-1/2) (31 Real Points) versus Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Minute (-1 1/2), Self Only (-1/2) (7 Real Points) I still have no idea why anyone would do this, aside from trying to make it fit in an EC. Fitting it into an EC isn't much of an excuse either. You end up paying 50/3.25 = 15 points (assuming your EC was 100 base to start) instead of 7 points to have 1 BOD per minute outside your EC. A Naked advantage on REC to move it up the time chart (Limited, of course, for only BOD REC) seems an equally viable solution for Regeneration, except that this cannot Heal anything but BOD (like stats drained with long-term recovery rates). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted January 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing Healind requires a attack roll, so does regeneration require you waste your phase 12 action. Even if it is persistant ( which does nothing at all to a instant powers as there are no examples in the book ) Continuous means you dont need a attack roll. Also the book version is can be dispelled and it does not come back on automaticaly ( but neither does a continuous version ) So should have Inherent, hey if your going to play by 5th rules might as well do it properly, no just when its convienient. Also the continuous version comes in at 10pts. Gee just having the power regeneration is simpler, and takes less room to explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Regeneration / Healing I'm fine with Regeneration being a part of the Healing Power, but it should go all the way in being consistent: make it buy down the repeat rate to once per Turn (or less often rather than--or in addition to--the Extra Time Limitation) just like any other form of Healing, and forget the special dispensation about cumulativeness. Does this make it too expensive? Maybe, but Healing in general has become awfully expensive, so let's just accept the fact that restoring Body (or other lost Powers/Characteristics) in a permenant context has become a rather expensive and powerful thing in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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