The Power of Presence

[Sean Waters]

I've been looking at PRE attacks for a character i'm trying to come up with: Mondo is big and ugly and very aggravating: so much so that he causes his opponents to become enraged at him and attack him, which he doesn't really mind as he is very tough. Based on the City of Heroes Tanker - tough and winds up opponents.

 

OK - there are a number of ways to do the 'enrage opponents' power - mind control, transform - I decided to look at PRE attacks.

 

For 40 points I can have a 10d6 PRE attack (assuming a base of 10 points) limited so that I can only use it for enraging opponents (-1/2), a total spend of 27 points.

 

This enables me to make a substantial PRE attack: 10d6 base

 

-1d6 in combat (generally)

+1d6 exhibiting a power

+1d6 violent action

+2d6 very appropriate action (opponents are almost certain to want to attack him anyway

 

Total: 13d6, or 45 points or so on average: that will be EGO+20 to EGO+30 for most opponents, so they are going to attack him, pretty certain about that...

 

OK, now PRE attacks are effectively ranged and AoE (selective), don't require a roll to hit and don't cost END or time in combat and doesn't have a breakout roll.

 

Call me old fashioned, but isn't that just far too powerful an ability for the cost?

[stan da ork]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

A few things:

 

1.) A Presence Attack is in no way Mind Control. Even with a +30 result, the opponent still might not follow commands. It's up to the GM, and if the GM feels the opponent has some deep, overriding reason to not follow the command (a Total Psychological Limitation or some such), then the opponent isn't going to attack you.

 

2.) Repeated Presence Attacks take dice penalties, so you can use that ability a couple of times during a single fight, then it starts to get less and less useful. And once again, how long it lasts is up to the GM.

 

3.) Is making an opponent attack you really that powerful? As you said, they were probably going to attack you (or at least someone on your team) anyway. Yes, it may be a slight modification to their plan, but I don't see it being terribly powerful.

 

By the way, I love the idea. On a different thread the subject came up of how in the source material (well, at least in comics) opponents always seem to focus on the big thugs first, and leave the poorly defended mentalists and blasters alone until the thugs are dealt with. This gives a great mechanical reason why this happens, and it helps encourage players to make their squishy mentalists and blasters truly squishy, since they can rely on the brick to take most of the damage for them.

[OddHat]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

I've been looking at PRE attacks for a character i'm trying to come up with: Mondo is big and ugly and very aggravating: so much so that he causes his opponents to become enraged at him and attack him' date=' which he doesn't really mind as he is very tough. Based on the City of Heroes Tanker - tough and winds up opponents.[/quote']

 

Looks good so far.

 

OK - there are a number of ways to do the 'enrage opponents' power - mind control, transform - I decided to look at PRE attacks.

 

For 40 points I can have a 10d6 PRE attack (assuming a base of 10 points) limited so that I can only use it for enraging opponents (-1/2), a total spend of 27 points.

 

I'd give it a -1. You can't use this extra PRE to defend, and you have a very limited attack. That kills at least half of PRE's value.

 

Call me old fashioned, but isn't that just far too powerful an ability for the cost?

 

Most GMs who will allow this kind of attack at all (that I've worked with) have made it clear that major characters will be immune. So, it's more or less a vs mooks only power completely in the hands of the GM, who is free to pile on modifiers that will null your PRE attack, or ignore it entirely. That's close to NCC in it's effect. So, I don't see it as overpowered.

 

If you don't like it in your campaign, you can always just buy Mind Control.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Call me old fashioned' date=' but isn't that just far too powerful an ability for the cost?[/quote']

 

Of course, it depends on the game and the GM.

 

In general though, there are sometimes issues with cost vs. scalability in HERO. As points and power levels ramp up, not everything ramps up at the same rate. Things that target the "slow risers" can become increasingly effective as power levels increase. Varies across campaigns of course.

 

Regular attacks and defenses frequently rise in proportion to each other, and everyone's CV increases. Overall, generally a net wash across those of the same power level.

 

Things like EGO and PRE however, rise more slowly in most cases. A starting hero with an Ego of 15 probably won't have an Ego of 30 by the time the Mentalist has increased their Mind Control from 10d6 to 15d6. So if the hero is only at Ego 20, the 15d6 Mind Control is more effective on him now than the 10d6 was on him when he was only Ego 15. Similarly, PRE generally won't rise at the same rate. A starting hero with Pre 20 probably won't quickly go up to Pre 40-50 in most cases. So powerful PRE attacks can affect disproportionately "powerful" characters because the PRE attack is hitting a relatively weak point. (Also probably include Body vs Increasing AP available for Transforms into the same general point)

 

So, some things become increasingly more effective relative to the generally available "defense" as power levels increase. A 40AP mentalist is a minor threat to anyone. An 80AP one is a major threat to almost anyone.

 

Again, varies depending on campaigns.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

OK, now PRE attacks are effectively ranged and AoE (selective), don't require a roll to hit and don't cost END or time in combat and doesn't have a breakout roll.

 

Call me old fashioned, but isn't that just far too powerful an ability for the cost?

 

Also I'd consider it pretty reasonable to assign modifiers, or just bump the effect down a level or two depending on the "mass" of friendlies available. If Godzilla does a PRE attack on a helicopter that's on its own, that crew's going to wet itself and fly away in a panic if it gets the chance. If Godzilla does a PRE attack on the assembled Japanese Defense Forces, the effect is going to be significantly less, as the troops know they've got lots of support and back-up.

 

(Not that that'll help them in the end against Godzilla of course...but that's not a PRE issue. )

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Also I'd consider it pretty reasonable to assign modifiers, or just bump the effect down a level or two depending on the "mass" of friendlies available. If Godzilla does a PRE attack on a helicopter that's on its own, that crew's going to wet itself and fly away in a panic if it gets the chance. If Godzilla does a PRE attack on the assembled Japanese Defense Forces, the effect is going to be significantly less, as the troops know they've got lots of support and back-up.

 

(Not that that'll help them in the end against Godzilla of course...but that's not a PRE issue. )

 

Some good points raised by all. Thanks.

 

If the character is outnumbered and those resisiting the PRE attack believe him to be at a disadvantage that is only a -1d6 on the PRE attack. The total will still be large. Personally that dosesn't seem enough to me, but it is the official total.

 

Moreover PRE has enormous inbuilt advantages - it effects everyone who can see/hear the attack if it is intended for them.

 

To do that with MC or transform you'd need at least +1.25 in advantages, probably a lot more given the potentially enormous area it can cover.

 

In addition PRE attacks can esily get the sort of situational bonuses hat MC and transform would not qualify for.

 

PRE attacks can even effect characters that the PRE attacker is unaware of.

 

There is no limit on how long PRE attacks last for: probably quite a while in appropriate circumstances, and there are no breeakout rolls.

 

Finally everyone starts with 2d6 or PRE attack, so even getting the equivlent dice in MC costs 10 points more.

 

I reckon to get an equivalent value in mind control would cost 110 points, bare minimum (single command MC, AE, selective, 0 END).

 

Mondo, of course, is built to take damage: increased DCV v enraged attackers (in effect they use less skill as they are so angry) and he is working WITH the expectations of the crowd - the heroes ALWAYS attack the villains (and vice versa), half damage resistance, decent defences, AND while he is being attacked the rest of the team can pick off the atatckers without worries.

 

Like the comments about the relative increasing effect of powers with experience - not something I'd thought about too much, but very true...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

FWIW I've worked out a few guidelines for Presence Attacks in my campaigns to try to balance them against Mental Powers. These are in addition to all the standard rules for PA as given in the Fifth Edition rulebook. I won't relate everything - the situational rules can get somewhat detailed - just the highlights:

 

Presence Attacks generally require both clear Line of Sight and clear hearing between the target(s) and the character making the Presence Attack, although the GM may rule than some PA only require that the character be seen or be heard. Modifiers to Perception based on range and other environmental factors may require the target to make a Perception Roll to notice and respond to the PA.

 

Unless the attacker specifies the target of the PA, or the target is obvious from the circumstances, anyone within sight and hearing of the attacker will be affected by the PA.

 

Presence Attacks normally require deliberate action on the part of the attacker. If the effects of high Presence affect those around the character constantly, whether he wishes it or not, this may be worth a Physical or Social Limitation to the character.

 

The types of suggestions or commands that a character making a PA can give to his target generally follow the +10 / +20 / +30 parameters for Mind Control. If a Presence Attack is based on frightening the target, commands can only be phrased in a threatening manner, while a PA which inspires allies only can only be phrased encouragingly. Contrary phrasing of a command or suggestion are not followed, and may allow for an immediate Breakout Roll (see below).

 

After a successful Presence Attack at the +10 level, any attempt at persuasion by the attacking character is adjudicated by the GM as to whether it succeeds and how long the recipient of a PA will comply with it - roleplaying would be the key determinant. However, after a successful Presence Attack at the +20 or +30 level, the target will automatically follow appropriate commands on his first Phase after the PA. On his next Phase the target gets a Breakout Roll to overcome the PA as with Mental Powers, based on the character's Ego or Presence, whichever is higher. Successive Breakout Rolls occur on each step down the Time Chart as per Mental Powers. In addition, the character may make additional Breakout Rolls whenever his circumstances or those of the character who PA'd him change, e.g. when his fortunes in battle change dramatically.

 

Each successive attempt by the target to break out of the effects of the Presence Attack gains a +1 bonus to the roll, and the attacker cannot prevent that bonus from accumulating as with Mental Powers. However, for every five points of effect by which the Presence Attack exceeds the Presence or Ego +30 of the target, the target suffers a -1 penalty to the Breakout Roll. The attacker can't choose what level of effect his Presence Attack will have, and can't automatically tell what level of effect he's achieved.

 

The character making the Presence Attack can continue to give appropriate commands as long as the effects of his Presence Attack last - he doesn't need to reroll to give new commands. However, if he gives a command that in the GM's view exceeds the level of effect he rolled, the command will not be obeyed and the victim of the PA immediately gets a Breakout Roll.

 

Targets of a Presence Attack can be under the effect of a PA from more than one attacker simultaneously. Presence Attacks cannot be Complementary or Competing with each other, unlike Mental Powers. If one attacker issues a command that directly contradicts a command from another attacker, but didn't roll at least as high a level of effect as the other attacker, then the new command is ignored. If the second attacker does roll as high or higher than the first attacker, then the target immediately gets a Breakout Roll to throw off the earlier Presence Attack altogether.

 

Characters affected by a Presence Attack at up to the +10 level will generally believe that any actions they took were wholly their own decisions. At the +20 and +30 level, after the target of the PA makes his Breakout Roll he will always realize that he was being influenced by the attacking character, although he won't automatically assume that there was anything unnatural about that influence.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

There is no limit on how long PRE attacks last for: probably quite a while in appropriate circumstances' date=' and there are no breakout rolls.[/quote']

 

I once asked Steve Long a rules question on this subject, and his answer was pretty noncommital, so I felt justified in setting my own parameters :

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11574

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

A couple of additional thoughts on boosted PRE "Powers"

 

I would be loathe to give "exhibiting use of power" Bonuses, and probably "Appropriate circumstances" bonuses without extraordinary effort above and beyond the use of the PRE Power. Otherwise you're giving away quite a lot of free power to a somewhat illogical reasoning... The power is already defined as a bonus, so you shouldn't get an additional bonus for using your bonus, as it were. It'd be like trying to get extra damage for your flame attack because fire is hot... its already part of the power.

Same with limited PRE... IF your extra PRE is to only cause Fear, because you are so fearsome, there had better be something else in play if you want "Appropriate Circumstances" bonuses. Justifying Appropriate circumstances as "Using a power I bought to create the circumstances" is more than a bit sketchy to me.

[Black Rose]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

As far as the "getting your opponents wound up" part, have you considered Distinctive Features? Make it Easily Concealed and Causes Extreme Reaction (desire to pummel) and simply have the character hide their DF until they fight. Attach it to some kind of "battle aura" on an OIHID and it'll only kick in when he fights.

[atlascott]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

I'd require mind control with a lim, not a Presence attack, for that sort of ability.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

One thing I've seen several GMs do to mitigate the Offensive PRE Attack, such as one designed to inflict a specific effect (like Fear or cause Rampage) is that it counts as a "Deliberate Attack" and takes a 1/2 Phase Action like other Attacks.

 

Meaning you can either use your normal PRE Attack as a 0-Phase or, if you're using your special Fear PRE Attack you're taking a Combat Action to do so.

 

Beyond that, the ambiguous nature of GM Caveat on just how a PRE Attack affects people can nullify it at dramatically appropriate moments: i.e. don't rely on it.

[Lucius]

The Power of Presence

 

In my experience, players - and Game Operations Directors, too - like using PRE attacks, but they are usually not very effective except as narrative tools.

 

Certainly, if you're using a PRE attack to get everybody to gang up on you, I can see a couple of problems. For example, if even one of your opponents runs up to engage hand to hand, any of your opponents with ranged attacks, even if they really wanted to hit you too, are probably going to attack someone else to avoid hitting their ally. And people aren't going to line up to hit you. If the hexes around you are crowded, some of your opponents are going to go deal with your team mates - even if they promise themselves to kick your can later.

 

And as far as "breakout rolls at each step on the time chart - " uh, maybe I missed something in the rules, but is there anything there that says that, say, 1 min later, the PRE attack still has *ANY* effect AT ALL? Let alone 5 min later?

 

(a few minutes later)

 

I just checked, and the longest it says a PRE attack effects anyone is a Turn. Granted, it doesn't say it can't effect someone longer - but if it does, it's just because the guy running game must have decided they were REALLY impressed. Where did this idea that PRE attacks have long-term effects come from?

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ponders the power of Absence

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Some really useful comments: once more, thank you.

 

I like the idea of adding in breakout rolls, although I might also allow INT to be used - after all PRE is creating an emotional response, so the rational mind should be able to evercome it too.

 

Black Rose: I did not buy it as a disadvantage, although that is a good idea, as i thought it would be tactically very useful so I should PAY for it.

 

AmadanNaBriona: the examples in the book allow for bonuses to be sprinkled liberally, although I suspect that PRE was never really invisaged to be a main attack power. As for the appropraiate circumstances, well, the other side is likely to WANT to attack him anyway: this goes with their own thoughts and desires anyway, so I'd have thought that it was justified in the rules as they stand - but I agree it is perhaps too easy to get bonuses.

 

ghost-angel: I think that PRE attacks SHOULD be treated as any other attack - that would be a useful balance.

 

Thanks to all who have posted so far.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Call me old fashioned, but isn't that just far too powerful an ability for the cost?

 

What? For the ability to make everyone and their Uncle Jimmy try to beat the snot of you? Seems like it balances out quite nicely when Uncle Jimmy turns out to be Dr. Destroyer in disguise.

[OddHat]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Some really useful comments: once more, thank you.

 

I like the idea of adding in breakout rolls, although I might also allow INT to be used - after all PRE is creating an emotional response, so the rational mind should be able to evercome it too.

 

Conceptually, someone with higher INT than EGO is not as strong willed as he is a quick thinker. He would know that he shouldn't let himself be goaded, but he would still have to resist with EGO.

 

Also, I think you may be understating just how stingy a GM is justified in being in adding positive situational modifiers, and just how many negative modifiers he may pile on. PRE attack mechanics are poorly defined, but that is not entirely bad. It leaves GMs with that much more discretion as to how to use them in a given campaign.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

What? For the ability to make everyone and their Uncle Jimmy try to beat the snot of you? Seems like it balances out quite nicely when Uncle Jimmy turns out to be Dr. Destroyer in disguise.

 

 

Agreed

 

Mind you if you think of it from a team perspective rather than an individual one, it is far better that the person Dr D targets has some chance of surviving the hit.

 

I think team synergy is something we do not think enough about in Hero: it can make a vast difference to how quickly (or whether) the other side get taken out.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Conceptually, someone with higher INT than EGO is not as strong willed as he is a quick thinker. He would know that he shouldn't let himself be goaded, but he would still have to resist with EGO.

 

Also, I think you may be understating just how stingy a GM is justified in being in adding positive situational modifiers, and just how many negative modifiers he may pile on. PRE attack mechanics are poorly defined, but that is not entirely bad. It leaves GMs with that much more discretion as to how to use them in a given campaign.

 

I agree, but I'm trying to think of ways to make PRE attacks LESS effective, or easier to resist, given their apparent cost/benefit ratio.

 

As for the bonuses: the rules encourage this by:

 

1. Noting far more bonuses than penalties in the table

2. Implimenting examples that clearly suggest adding bonuses for, frankly, not doing very much.

 

The trouble with unofficial stinginess is that the players then point at the book, shake their heads and tut, and I just can't stand that.

[OddHat]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

I agree, but I'm trying to think of ways to make PRE attacks LESS effective, or easier to resist, given their apparent cost/benefit ratio.

 

As for the bonuses: the rules encourage this by:

 

1. Noting far more bonuses than penalties in the table

2. Implimenting examples that clearly suggest adding bonuses for, frankly, not doing very much.

 

The trouble with unofficial stinginess is that the players then point at the book, shake their heads and tut, and I just can't stand that.

 

Cut off their fingers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Cut off their fingers.

 

 

That's what I like about you: always Mr Reasonable

[OddHat]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

That's what I like about you: always Mr Reasonable

 

Thanks. Fair and balanced, that's my goal.

 

It also explains the parasol and the unicycle.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Thanks. Fair and balanced, that's my goal.

 

It also explains the parasol and the unicycle.

 

Ba-da-boom!

[Lucius]

The Power of Presence

 

Some really useful comments: once more, thank you.

 

I like the idea of adding in breakout rolls,

.

 

Again - Why?

 

In one turn - 12 segments - you don't get a breakout roll to escape a PREsence attack. You're just out of it automatically. Unless there's something in ReFred I don't know about, the longest the rules describe anyone being influenced by a PRE attack is one turn.

 

If you're adding house rules to "rein in" PREsence attacks, it's because you're already making them much more powerful than the rules say they are.

 

The guy hit by a PRE attack doesn't need any help getting out from under it. It's the guy who LAUNCHED the PRE attack who needs to justify having it continue to effect the victim past, say, segment 12 of the same Turn, maybe segment 12 of the next if the Game Operations Director is being generous. Ordinarily, you have to keep making PRE attacks for a long term effect, and the rules specify that each time, your attack is less effective. Why do you think that specific rule is even there? If one PREsence attack was good for all day long, why do you think they'd have a rule covering repeated attacks on the same target?

 

 

I'll ask again - where does this idea come from that a PRE attack's effects just keep going and going like an energizer bunny, when nothing in the rules justifies that assumption?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It wasn't me or the palindromedary

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

Essentially, Lucius, it's because neither the rules nor Steve Long say that they don't last past one Turn. The "one Turn" time duration mentioned for Presence Attacks refers only to the effective extra Presence that the target receives for purposes of resisting contrary Presence Attacks. One may choose to infer that any of the other listed effects of a PA which don't have a specified duration only last for one Turn; but that's a supposition not explicitly supported by the rules.

 

IMHO some of the inspirational effects described on the Presence Attack Table would look rather silly if they just cut out after one Turn.

[stan da ork]

Re: The Power of Presence

 

I'm with Lucius on this one. Why implement all these house rules and extra rolls, when the answer is quite simple - just assume that a Presence Attack lasts at most a single Turn unless the GM rules otherwise (and while this may not be spelled out, the rules do imply it). If the character wants the bad guys to keep swinging at him exclusively, he'll have to keep making new Presence Attacks, taking the penalty for repeated Presence Attacks each time. Seems fine to me...