How to have a power and not have it

[Captain Obvious]

Q: If a power is designed to Adjust or otherwise affect an ability or something else a character doesn’t have, could it still cause its “secondary†effects (such as doing Knockback, if it has the Does Knockback Advantage)?

 

 

 

A: No. If a power is designed to Adjust or otherwise affect an ability or something else a character doesn’t have, then it simply has no effect it all, even if it “hits.†You can’t affect what isn’t there.

 

Given that an Adjustment Power can't affect a Power that's not there, how would one model a Power that a character doesn't have normally, but must Absorb from an external source? For instance, a character with a metal body who can become superheated if hit by fire attacks, but doesn't normally have a Damage Shield.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

Limitations. Buy the damage shield, with the limit "only after hit by X amount of heat/fire damage". You now have the power, and your absorption can feed into it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

Hmm ... I've never done this for an 'incidental' power like the one you describe, but ...

 

Once I played a fairly typical Absorption/Energy Blast kind of character; however, unless he'd absorbed energy, he couldn't fire the blast. So, I bought the blast as coming out of an Endurance Reserve with a pathetically low Recovery.

 

So, he'd start the fight fully charged (the 1 REC representing, say, sunlight or kinetic energy from walking), then he'd gradually bleed off his energy as he fought, until he got pounded on and recharged.

[MitchellS]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

If you're just wanting to add some realism to your game then just consider the ability to be GM's caveat. After all, how often is the character going to get hit with fire that he will have access to the damage shield anyway?

[transmetahuman]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

If you're just wanting to add some realism to your game then just consider the ability to be GM's caveat. After all' date=' how often is the character going to get hit with fire that he will have access to the damage shield anyway?[/quote']Depends on what powers his teammates have. Including any VPPs.

[kave99]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

the skill power could do this just like brick tricks if he wants to do it a lot he should buy a MP, EC ,VVP or power.perhaps with requires a power skill roll.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

Given that an Adjustment Power can't affect a Power that's not there' date=' how would one model a Power that a character doesn't have normally, but must Absorb from an external source? For instance, a character with a metal body who can become superheated if hit by fire attacks, but doesn't normally have a Damage Shield.[/quote']I'd just call that an aspect of sfx; both of the Power in question and of the target's. In the case of a metal character, his metal body would also probably make him an excellent conductor of electricity and probably vulnerable to magnetic attacks (depending on the metal in question). A character made of water would have different interactions with electrical attacks, and so on.

 

There is no need to model everything in Hero. That's what the whole section on Special Effects is about. Just approach it logically.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

Given that an Adjustment Power can't affect a Power that's not there' date=' how would one model a Power that a character doesn't have normally, but must Absorb from an external source? For instance, a character with a metal body who can become superheated if hit by fire attacks, but doesn't normally have a Damage Shield.[/quote']

 

It's free and comes with the SFX of his metal body power(s).

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

It may be free as sfx if it is a very minor effect (1 to 2d6 normal, 1/2d6 killing), but if it is something that can have a significant effect, then you should be paying points for it. In the example you gave, buy a damage shield but either limit it so that it requires you to be hit by heat attacks before it activates or buy it at the 1 point level, and feed it with absorption.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

It may be free as sfx if it is a very minor effect (1 to 2d6 normal' date=' 1/2d6 killing), but if it is something that can have a significant effect, then you should be paying points for it. In the example you gave, buy a damage shield but either limit it so that it requires you to be hit by heat attacks before it activates or buy it at the 1 point level, and feed it with absorption.[/quote']

 

How much damage should this do really? At most, it's in inconvience. Have you ever tried to heat up a human sized hunk of metal with a flame thrower or a blow torch? (and yes, I have). It take a LONG time for something that large to heat up all around. Also, unless you have a heat source large enough to heat the whole body evenly, only parts of the body will be hot. Even if they got hot enough to actually hurt unproected flesh, I don't think any amount of reasonable damage is likely to be worth spending points on.

 

Of course, if the guy just heats up when hit with heat attacks (an excellent retainer for heat and is automaticaly distrubuted throughtout the mass with nigh supernatural efficiency, then it's not just a SFX useful enough to warrent paying point for, it's a Power in an of itself.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

How much damage should this do really? At most, it's in inconvience. Have you ever tried to heat up a human sized hunk of metal with a flame thrower or a blow torch? (and yes, I have). It take a LONG time for something that large to heat up all around. Also, unless you have a heat source large enough to heat the whole body evenly, only parts of the body will be hot. Even if they got hot enough to actually hurt unproected flesh, I don't think any amount of reasonable damage is likely to be worth spending points on.

 

Of course, if the guy just heats up when hit with heat attacks (an excellent retainer for heat and is automaticaly distrubuted throughtout the mass with nigh supernatural efficiency, then it's not just a SFX useful enough to warrent paying point for, it's a Power in an of itself.

 

I try not to make too much senses: you may have noticed

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

How much damage should this do really? At most, it's in inconvience. Have you ever tried to heat up a human sized hunk of metal with a flame thrower or a blow torch? (and yes, I have). It take a LONG time for something that large to heat up all around. Also, unless you have a heat source large enough to heat the whole body evenly, only parts of the body will be hot. Even if they got hot enough to actually hurt unproected flesh, I don't think any amount of reasonable damage is likely to be worth spending points on.

 

What's that quote about real-world physics and cat-girls?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

Given that an Adjustment Power can't affect a Power that's not there' date=' how would one model a Power that a character doesn't have normally, but must Absorb from an external source? For instance, a character with a metal body who can become superheated if hit by fire attacks, but doesn't normally have a Damage Shield.[/quote']

This is one of my pet peeves: an abitrarily restrictive rule. I'd just go ahead an use the Absorption. Instead of starting with a 5-point damage shield, and adding to it with Absorption, just start with a 0-point damage shield. I don't know why you're not allowed to do this. There are many reasonable SFX in the source material that could be modeled perfectly by allowing Adjustment powers to add from zero. And it completely governs itself: the effect dice show how much power you get, the fade rate shows how long the power will last, and there's a well-defined upper limit to how much power you could potentially build up to. In this case, the fade rate represents the metal gradually cooling off again. What could be easier?

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

What's that quote about real-world physics and cat-girls?

Irrelevant.

 

catgirls I can buy. Guys flying through the air, I can buy. Ocular energy beams I can buy as well. Hitting a man-sized piece of metal with a flamethrower for a few seconds and having it be hot enough to burn the flesh of anyone who touched it I can also buy, but only if it's explained in the same way that cat-girls, flying and energy beams are: a superpower.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

This is one of my pet peeves: an abitrarily restrictive rule. I'd just go ahead an use the Absorption. Instead of starting with a 5-point damage shield' date=' and adding to it with Absorption, just start with a 0-point damage shield. I don't know why you're not allowed to do this. There are many reasonable SFX in the source material that could be modeled perfectly by allowing Adjustment powers to add from zero. And it completely governs itself: the effect dice show how much power you get, the fade rate shows how long the power will last, and there's a well-defined upper limit to how much power you could potentially build up to. In this case, the fade rate represents the metal gradually cooling off again. What could be easier?[/quote']

Then I would just buy a massive Absorption to Any 0-Point Power, All At Once, Fade Rate shoved way the heck down.

 

And just wait. After a few combats I've got every power in the book, the fade rate is far enough that each combat just makes sure I'm topped off and there ya go.

 

Absorption 10d6 (physical, All 0-Point Powers), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2), all [special effect] powers simultaneously (+2) (250 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)

 

For 111 Points I got a 50/50 Shot of adding to all my powers, I'll get 60 Active Points at my top end fitting in with a standard Campaign Limit.

 

Now I buy all the powers in the book at 0-Points. Hey, toss on anther Absorption to that pile while I'm at it. And That's why it's not in the base rules as a possbility. Psychotically Munchkin.

 

Now, if you wanted to House Rule, or GM Rule a particular build for a concept character and everyone at the table were cool with it then by all means - go for it. But as part of the rules, I'm perfectly happy with the idea that you can only add to powers you already purchased.

[kave99]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

Absorption 10d6 (physical, All 0-Point Powers), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2), all [special effect] powers simultaneously (+2) (250 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)

 

For 111 Points I got a 50/50 Shot of adding to all my powers, I'll get 60 Active Points at my top end fitting in with a standard Campaign Limit.

.

 

coming to a game in 3,2,1:sick:

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

This is one of my pet peeves: an abitrarily restrictive rule. I'd just go ahead an use the Absorption. Instead of starting with a 5-point damage shield' date=' and adding to it with Absorption, just start with a 0-point damage shield. I don't know why you're not allowed to do this. There are many reasonable SFX in the source material that could be modeled perfectly by allowing Adjustment powers to add from zero. And it completely governs itself: the effect dice show how much power you get, the fade rate shows how long the power will last, and there's a well-defined upper limit to how much power you could potentially build up to. In this case, the fade rate represents the metal gradually cooling off again. What could be easier?[/quote']

 

Well it isn't really adjusting if you are adding, transform is the power to add powers (and that doesn't allow you to add to your own), or UBO or VPP somesuch, what ghost-angel said, and so on and so forth.

 

Although you can kinda build an 'add any power' power with ghost-angel's construct and a tiny cosmic VPP....

 

I mean you are right, but I can see why it has gone that way.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

Then I would just buy a massive Absorption to Any 0-Point Power, All At Once, Fade Rate shoved way the heck down.

...

Absorption 10d6 (physical, All 0-Point Powers), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2), all [special effect] powers simultaneously (+2) (250 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)

Is this intended as a serious argument? "If you allow perfectly reasonable build X, then you must allow completely ridiculous build Y." That's one of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen on these boards. I know you're not that stupid. Do you think the rules allow Simulate Death, UAA? Technically, they do. SD is an available official talent and UAA is an available official advantage. So what? And "0-point Powers" is not a special effect in the first place.

 

And while we're on the subject, the following is a pefectly legal, official build that's clearly abusive:

 

Absorption 10d6 (physical, All Characteristics), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2), all [special effect] powers simultaneously (+2) (250 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)

 

So for 111 points, you get +60 STR, +20 DEX, +30 CON, +30 BODY, +60 INT, +30 EGO, +60 PRE, +120 COM, +30 PD, +30 ED, +30 REC, +120 END, +60 STUN. Unless you think that's a reasonable power, and that you'd allow it as a GM, don't offer an equally preposterous build as an argument.

 

Well it isn't really adjusting if you are adding' date=' transform is the power to add powers (and that doesn't allow you to add to your own), or UBO or VPP somesuch, what ghost-angel said, and so on and so forth.[/quote']

But all those builds are much klunkier and leave a lot undefined, and have all sorts of weird complications. (1) If I use Transform, it's easier to use the power on an 8-BODY normal than on a 20-BODY brick. That makes no sense for the concept. And Transform gives no guidelines or limits on how much of the power the recipient gets. Sure, you can make up some link between the effect rolled and the points of power granted, but then it no longer works like Transform, but more like ... say it with me ... an Adjustment Power. And then you're just substituting one house rule for another. (2) UBO has an entirely different mechanic than Adjustment powers which may not match the concept of what the power is supposed to be. Again, you can come up with house rules for making UBO work more like an Adjustment Power, but why bother trying to fit the square peg into the round hole, when you can just use an Adjustment Power. (3) And VPP's don't help the situation at all: inside the VPP, you still have to use a Transform or UBO (if you insist on not using Adjustment Powers), which still doesn't fit the concept and still ahs the same problems. Unless you require everyone to have a VPP of powers that can't be used except to be granted by others through a Transform/UBO construct, which would be silly and needlessly complicated.

 

I mean you are right, but I can see why it has gone that way.

The only reason I can see that it has gone that way was that someone forgot this was HERO and not B&D. Yes, I know not all GMs are experienced enough to spot munchkinism immediately, but this one should be obvious to even the newest newby.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

Phil

 

I'm not getting a lot of good press lately, am I?

 

Right, the problem here is that you want to be able to heat up when your metal body is attacked by a heat sfx attack.

 

That, to me is a forseeable consequence, and should (if you want to make much of it) be bought or (if you don't) treat it as sfx, as Dust Raven points out.

 

On the wider issue of adding powers, well I don't feel that strongly. I do think that, in common with many 'buff' powers it is potentially imbalancing to allow adjustment powers to add new powers in a game like Hero, but that's an issue for individual players and GMs. I think that the ability of adjustment powers to add to a very wide variety of sfx is potentially unbalancing too: there are quite a lot of powers that are very effective at low point levels.

 

My biggest problem though is that an adjustment power can be used on yourself and others: VPP is the structure we use to add to our own powers and allowing adjustment powers to add new powers would displace this framework substantially (which MAY not be a bad thing). I don't see VPP and transform as that klunky - certainly not compared to the official adjustment power rules.

 

Transform makes the amount of power added very clear - you need 2xBODY plus (new points/5). This is official - in the book rules - not house rules.

 

UBO is nice in that it grants a SPECIFIC amount of power (and doesn't add to existing abilities, necessarily) so it is easier to balance.

 

VPP was used as an example of how you change your own powers.

 

It is not something I feel that strongly about though. As you say, so long as you keep a weather eye open, to head off abuses in advance, you should be OK. I do think that some of the ramifications may be quite subtle though.

[Old Man]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

What's that quote about real-world physics and cat-girls?

 

Both can be frikken hot!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How to have a power and not have it

 

Right' date=' the problem here is that you want to be able to heat up when your metal body is attacked by a heat sfx attack.[/quote']

I don't see that as the problem at all. I'm not really concerned with a SFX justification for a power. I'm concerned about how to build that power. It seems to me that a damage shield of significant power (enough to do damage in a 250-350 point supers game) is too much power to grant as a free SFX side-effect. If it's 1-2d6 Normal, then I might allow it, but I don't think that's what was asked for.

 

The problem to me was that he wanted to gain a damage shield (hot metal body) when attacked by heat/fire powers and have it gradually get hotter (more damaging) the more heat/fire he's exposed to. And then it gradually wears off as his metal body cools down. This sounds to me exactly like Absorption - it builds up with repeated application (to a defined maximum, which helps prevent abuse), and then fades. The only "problem" is that officially, you aren't supposed to add new powers with Adjustment Powers. Waive that rule, and you've got a very simple, elegant solution.

 

I do think that, in common with many 'buff' powers it is potentially imbalancing to allow adjustment powers to add new powers in a game like Hero, but that's an issue for individual players and GMs.

I really don't think it's that unbalancing. You have to spend 10 points and an attack action to grant 3.5 points of power to one person. And even if you take extra phases, the maximum is still 6. Yes, when you start adding on advantages like "Multiple Powers Simultaneously" and "Slower Fade Rate" and the Increased Maximum adder, it can get abusive, but that's more the fault of those Advantages, rather than the ability to add new powers. It would be just as abusive to to that with existing powers as it would to do it with new powers.

 

I don't see VPP and transform as that klunky - certainly not compared to the official adjustment power rules.

I'm not sure what you mean by "klunky". Going by what I mean, I see VPP and transform as much klunkier than Adjustment powers. Sure it takes a little extra bookkeeping to track the fading, but it works almost exactly like a plain old EB: dice of effect, gain back REC every post-12. Except that instead of REC, you use a flat 5.

 

Transform makes the amount of power added very clear - you need 2xBODY plus (new points/5). This is official - in the book rules - not house rules.

You're right! I guess I missed that one.

 

It is not something I feel that strongly about though. As you say, so long as you keep a weather eye open, to head off abuses in advance, you should be OK. I do think that some of the ramifications may be quite subtle though.

I don't know what those would be.