Is Crimefighting Ethical?

[Kenn]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

A true story about glasses disguising identities.

 

It was winter of '87-'88, and we were into '88. The winter-spring semester had started. My on-campus job that year involved, among other things, delivering boxes of books (dropped off at the physical plant) to the campus bookstore. One day, I was doing this. On my way out, I noticed on the stairs a girl's glove. There hadn't been a lot of people in the bookstore, but I had noticed the O'Connell twins had gone in. I figured the glove was one of theirs, and since the glove was green I figured it belonged to the one with the green jacket. I went back, asked her if she was missing a glove, etc. and returned her glove to her. Now, at this point I was wearing an old army trenchcoat to keep warm, and a fedora. I also had my glasses on.

 

Less than an hour later, I was sitting in a classroom, waiting for my 4 o'clock class to start. My hat and coat were off. And because I was resting a little, I'd removed my glasses. I was among the first to arrive (my boss dropped me off at the building as we made our rounds), so I'm kind of watching people come in. The O'Connell twins are in the class. They come in. They sit down, and as it happended, in the row in front of me. And this green glove drops out of a green jacket and its owner doesn't notice. I do. I bend down, pick up the glove, and return it, saying something about being more careful as this was the second time in an hour I found it on the ground. She looked at me with a blank stare. I say "At the bookstore, just a little while ago." She hadn't recognised me as the same person. And I wasn't trying to pass myself off as two people.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

In regards to everyone speaking about the moral responsibility to act... what about the moral responsibility to answer for your actions?

 

This is where I differ with the vigilante mentality. Too much of it is self righteous, "How dare you say I was wrong for shooting that rapist!" kind of attitude. I should be able to act as my personal values dictate without repercussion.

 

THAT is the greatest hubris and where evil begins.

 

Freedom to act is NOT freedom from responsibility for those actions.

 

Personally, I'm all for people acting on their personal moral guidance AS LONG AS they also choose to answer to the repercussions of their actions.

 

Go stop the bank robber and shoot the murderer. I'm all for it. Afterwards, turn yourself in to the authorities and answer for violating the law.

 

In Markdoc's scenario (robot/power armor and dead kids) I think there is a moral argument that "somebody had to stop them or risk greater loss of life"... and I also think the truly moral argument should have been "I stopped them because I had to... now I will answer for the repercussions of my actions."

 

This is how vigilantism works. Once per person. Then go to jail for it.

 

Do what you are morally obligated to do, then turn yourself in to society's authorities and stand up for what you did. Moral obligation doesn't end with a self gratifying punch to the bad guy's face.

 

Note: If you feel morally responsible to fight against the greater society... then you've crossed the line from "crimefighting" into the arena of "revolutionary/terrorist." That's a whole 'nother discussion.

[secretID]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I bend down' date=' pick up the glove, and return it, saying something about being more careful as this was the second time in an hour I found it on the ground.[/size']

You should have left class, put on the jacket, fedora, and glasses, rushed back in, returned the glove, and rushed out, spouting some dramatic slogan. That would have blown her mind.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

A true story about glasses disguising identities.

I on the other hand would never be able maintain a secret ID, even if I wore an Iron Man suit. People I haven't seen for twenty years routinely recognize me from across crowded restaurants. A girl I hadn't seen since high school (not even someone I'd been terribly close to) once heard my voice and came over to say hello. I once had a cousin, who hadn't seen me in at least ten years and probably no more than 10 times in my whole life, who had no reason to know I was even in the state, recognize the back of my head as I walked past a window!

 

I could understand if I looked like Cary Grant, or alternately Quasimodo. But I think I'm pretty normal looking. Only thing I can figure is I must have Distinctive Features: Looks Like Scott. (At least it didn't come with Causes Extreme Reaction!)

[Savinien]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I am currently participating in a game at HeroCentral that involves these issues. It might be a little different because it does incorporate the existence of 'known supers'. The PCs started as 25/25 characters that were like common joes, except they decided to fight crime. The GM used excerpts from actual citizen arrest laws and such forcing players to decide how their characters felt about such things.

 

Cool game.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I think the superhero ethical approach is the exact opposite of might makes right. Superheroes say "I'll fight for what's right (in my view) regardless of how mighty the other side."

Yes. But History is also full of tyrants, villains and criminals galore who thought they were right. Self-assurance is no guarantee of morality. On the contrary, part of being a moral person is the ability to consider the fact that you might, in fact, be wrong.

 

I think moral relativism - in the form of absolute adherence to the law regardless of its nature - is might makes right. The position supported by the most people' date=' or by the authority, is the right one.[/quote']

To paraphrase Thoreau: the majority do not automatically gain morality and wisdom by virtue of their numbers. Very true, but that still doesn't give us the right to just ignore any laws we don't like. If we wish to live in a society, societies need rules to operate. I don't consider that "might makes right," I consider it a necessary concession to not wanting to live in constant anarchy (which is the ultimate state of might makes right).

 

I understand that there are questions regarding collateral damage from vigilante action' date=' but those are independent of the question of whether it's ever moral to break the law. [/quote']

I'm not saying that it's never moral to break the law. The question is when and how is it okay to break the law. Breaking the law to protect people from harm (escaped slaves, violent crimes in progress, etc) is one thing. Saying "I think pawn shops should be illegal, so I'm going to burn them all down" -- which is what the statement you quoted was referring to -- is quite another.

 

In regards to everyone speaking about the moral responsibility to act... what about the moral responsibility to answer for your actions?

Well put! The part about Civil Disobedience that people tend to overlook is that it's all founded on the principle of going to jail to protest an unjust law, in order to draw attention to the need to change the law.

 

Going back to the Guardian Angels example: the GAs didn't wear masks or run when the police showed up. They were accountable for their actions.

 

Note: If you feel morally responsible to fight against the greater society... then you've crossed the line from "crimefighting" into the arena of "revolutionary/terrorist." That's a whole 'nother discussion.

Exactly. If you believe you live in a fundamentally unjust society, you have a right (some might say a duty) to do what you can to change that society. But Right Of Rebellion is a totally different thing from vigilante crimefighting as it's being discussed here.

 

To recap my position:

Citizen's Arrest: Stopping a crime (typically a felony) or assisting the police in catching a criminal.

Civil Disobedience: Publically protesting an unjust law in order to get it changed.

Right Of Rebellion: Working to overthrow an unjust society that no longer acts in the interest of its citizens.

Vigilante Crimefighting: Taking it upon yourself to track down criminals or others, with no legal authority or social oversight, because you don't feel the legitimate authorities are doing a good enough job.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Great summation, BDH. Quite eloquent.

 

Just a thought on the gaming side of things. One reason "realistic" doesn't necessarily work is that it tends to be very brief in scope. Reality tends to put closure to this kind of activity. You get one shot to do your big action adventure vigilante schtick... then end up...

 

Dead

crippled

arrested

retired

on-the-lam

 

...or some combination of those. Reality dosen't support a weekly, serialized life of adventure and crime fighting.

 

I've run "realistic" games in the past. Characters tended toward all of the above. I had players whose character lived through a big, scary, life threatening adventure... and retire the character right way. "Yep... that was cool... and Hank never wants to go through that again. He goes back to photo journalism and never tries to take on organized crime again!" Even the characters that had multiple adventures and had lives of mercs and detectives that could lead toward more of this kind of thing... eventually they retired. Often wounded and haunted by the lives lost around them. Others ended up in prison. Others dead.

 

This was Danger International... not supers... but it was a very different kind of game... with a very different view of what PCs could get away with. Adventures felt more like movies or novels than serialized tv or comics. The stories and characters had "endings" because the reality of morality, ethics, the law, society and all of that drove them. Romantic thoughts of moral vigilantism and/or a life of adventure quickly faded. A character surviving and "getting out" was the high point. One of the most emotional scenes was the retirement of the longest surviving PC... when he put away his gun and retired to a small beach house in Florida and became a teacher of Russian and Slavic languages at the local community college. His left arm was 50% at best due to wounds and he had three bullet scars on his chest. He had buried at least three good friends and was persona non-grata in his hometown of Boston. All of that and he was no vigilante at all... but a PI who got caught up in some big conspiracies and criminal activity.

 

Vigilante activity and superheroics are great... I just think it is important to realize that they are absolutely NOT reflecting reality and absolutely demand some fictional assumptions to be plausible. While I completely understand the heartfelt desire to be a lone, powerful individual who leads a life of positive moral adventure... it just ain't real or anything close to it. That is why we game it... not live it.

[Vondy]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I ran a game based on a government super-team defense and intelligence community with some domestic functions (now department of homeland security, I guess) for years. They operated in a world where there was very little in the way of costumed crimefighting. And the general attitude about it was that real heroes don't hide behind masks - they take the same risks soldiers, federal agents, and other public servants take. Vigilantism was considered a problem - and was deeply frowned on not only by the government, but by the team as well. Personally, crimefighting as depicted in the comics is usually unethical as it amounts to taking the law into ones own hands. Its the rare comic book hero who strictly limits himself to the actual rule of law as it applies to the common man. The power fantasy of being "above the law," in my opinion, is part of the juvenile appeal of most comics. In most cases what comic book heroes do would be impossible in a legal sense - even though we love to see bad guys "get their just deserts."

[Vondy]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

So far as I know there has never actually been a "He Needed Killing" law in Texas. I believe there have been cases where a grand jury refused to indict or it's been used as a defense; but not an actual law. Maybe I'll ask Blackjack; he got his degree in criminal justice in Texas.

 

I can't imagine why shooting a rapist in the act wouldn't be considered ethical anywhere (except maybe Iran, where the woman would probably be shot instead).

 

In washington there have been one or two juries who decided "he needed killing" - albiet in legalese. Washington is one of the actual "old west" states, despite the progressive strain in its urban population.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Great summation, BDH. Quite eloquent.

 

Just a thought on the gaming side of things. One reason "realistic" doesn't necessarily work is that it tends to be very brief in scope. Reality tends to put closure to this kind of activity. You get one shot to do your big action adventure vigilante schtick... then end up...

 

Dead

crippled

arrested

retired

on-the-lam

 

...or some combination of those. Reality dosen't support a weekly, serialized life of adventure and crime fighting.

 

I've run "realistic" games in the past. Characters tended toward all of the above. I had players whose character lived through a big, scary, life threatening adventure... and retire the character right way. "Yep... that was cool... and Hank never wants to go through that again. He goes back to photo journalism and never tries to take on organized crime again!" Even the characters that had multiple adventures and had lives of mercs and detectives that could lead toward more of this kind of thing... eventually they retired. Often wounded and haunted by the lives lost around them. Others ended up in prison. Others dead.

 

This was Danger International... not supers... but it was a very different kind of game... with a very different view of what PCs could get away with. Adventures felt more like movies or novels than serialized tv or comics. The stories and characters had "endings" because the reality of morality, ethics, the law, society and all of that drove them. Romantic thoughts of moral vigilantism and/or a life of adventure quickly faded. A character surviving and "getting out" was the high point. One of the most emotional scenes was the retirement of the longest surviving PC... when he put away his gun and retired to a small beach house in Florida and became a teacher of Russian and Slavic languages at the local community college. His left arm was 50% at best due to wounds and he had three bullet scars on his chest. He had buried at least three good friends and was persona non-grata in his hometown of Boston. All of that and he was no vigilante at all... but a PI who got caught up in some big conspiracies and criminal activity.

 

Vigilante activity and superheroics are great... I just think it is important to realize that they are absolutely NOT reflecting reality and absolutely demand some fictional assumptions to be plausible. While I completely understand the heartfelt desire to be a lone, powerful individual who leads a life of positive moral adventure... it just ain't real or anything close to it. That is why we game it... not live it.

 

But...but....

 

YOU'RE A STINKY DOO-DOO HEAD!!!!

 

 

 

 

Actually, well said.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

In washington there have been one or two juries who decided "he needed killing" - albiet in legalese. Washington is one of the actual "old west" states' date=' despite the progressive strain in its urban population.[/quote']

 

Yeah - those of us that live on the I-5 corridor often forget that the other 70% of the state and 49% of the population tend to vote rupublican and own high-caliber firearms, and that the "other side of the state" is considerably more like Montana and Idaho than, say, Northwestern California.

 

Even on this side of the mountains, it's pretty darn easy to find the eqivalent of hillbillies and rednecks on the Olympic penninsula. Not bad folks by any means, but they DO tend to have pretty big conservative/independent streaks to them.

[Mentor]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

It occured to me that most of Midguard's adventures involve globe spanning and even galaxy spanning type scenarios which threaten large scale destruction or domination by villains generally too powerful and/or too unnoticeable for government or military intervention. Thus the ethical question of playing super vigilante doesn't apply

 

I do have a more street level PC just designed for a team called Justice Watch who was an inner city MD before "the accident". As he has a public ID and the backstory assumes the "great power, great responsibility" mode the crime in his neighborhood demanded his unioque abilities. Eventually, he was recruited by Justice Watch, which is a Federal law enforcement agency, but the character does not see the credentials as a requirement for crime fighting.