Is Crimefighting Ethical?

[OddHat]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Well, I'm talking about a rational world, not a world that follows the rules of Story.

 

If we are following the rules of Story, my answer will depend on the writer.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

...it seems like a valid tangent to discuss what literary conceits of this genre are ethically realistic in the real world.

Based on the opening post, I assumed we were talking about the real world: if I woke up tomorrow with superpowers..." sort of thing. I generally have no problem with it in fiction.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“I've never shot anyone before...â€

“I was there, son. I'm fairly sure you haven't shot anyone yet.â€

[SKJAM!]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Well, if you had a power like Esper Mami's "Danger Sense, citywide, keeps going off until the danger has passed or you do something about it, manifests as ringing in your ears", you might choose to fight crime just out of self-defense.

[wcw43921]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

What we need to remember here is that one does not always choose the path of the hero--most often, the path is chosen for him.

 

Take Bruce Wayne, for example. His destiny was set the moment Joe Chill pulled the trigger a second time. If he'd only killed Thomas Wayne, Bruce would still have his mother--and maybe that would have been enough for him to lead a normal life.

 

Then there's Spider-Man. He wanted to be an entertainer and use his powers to make all kinds of money. But a moment of selfish irresponsibility led to the death of his beloved uncle--and a lifetime of atoning for that moment by making sure it happens to no one else.

 

Now the Flashes--Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, and Wally West--may have chosen the heroes' road voluntarily. But given their upbringing and personality, they could hardly chosen otherwise. Jay had no interest in using his powers for personal gain--and he certainly could have, as he demonstrated in the first Flash story by winning a football game all by himself. And Barry was already fighting crime as a police scientist--a career he chose through the inspiration of his hero, the Golden Age Flash. And Wally West became a hero because as the biggest fan of the second Flash, he could hardly do anything else.

 

The underlying assumption of this thread is that we suddenly and pleasantly discover we have superpowers, and we get to decide what to do with them. It's not quite like that in the comics, books and movies, nor is it like that with the superhero characters we create. It's not so much a choice to fight crime as much as it is a matter of conscience and circumstance.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Okay, here's where I like the *concept* of the X-Men. Because under the right circumstances it is the one place where I could see myself joining such a group. If I woke up, found myself with powers in a world that hated my kind and there were nutcases rocking the boat pushing towards a war between my kind and the rest of humanity, I might get involved for simple self-preservation.

 

Note that I said the concept. I am aware there are a huge number of problems with the implementation.

[sinanju]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

This is the source of a lot of culture clash for me. In my home group we run a lot of games about people with superpowers' date=' but who are not professional crimefighters and we run a few games about non-powered (or nearly non-powered) vigilante groups. I always feel weird when I find myself in a game about superpowered professional (whether paid or not) crimefighters. Besides, the crimefighting thing seems to be a thin veneer for reactionary oppression of the common man.[/quote']

 

I played in a home-brew "Traveller" game for many years that was a superhero game in all but name for years. We had initially mixed in the mutations from Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha. Over the years we added in powers from other games, from novels, short stories, comics, movies, everywhere. It was a purely random-generation system for mutant powers, so we got some REALLY weird characters out of it.

 

But the end result was countless clashes between psionic, mutant, sci-fi weapon-wielding supers. We didn't _think_ of it as a superhero game, so the idea of costumes and whatnot never came up. But that's essentially what it was.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

If I get some superpowers and if working for the state is impossible (if I'm one of a kind and less than Dr. Manhattan, or if supers are common and illegal, or if it is illegal to use supers for law enforcement due to fourth, fifth, eighth, and tenth amendment issues) then I don't see how NOT crimefighting could be ethical.

 

Especially if I get a suite a powers like: missile deflection, find weakness, danger sense, and energy blast. What the heck else do I do? Work out for a few months, take more Jeet Kun Do, put on some tights, and get to it.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Y'all thinking too hard.

 

You fight crime so you can fight crime.

 

You wear a costume because it's cool.

 

Keep a secret ID or don't, there's drawbacks either way.

 

Besides, morality is so stony-solid in the kinds of comics that spawn superheroes in longjohns with secret IDs, compared to the rich tonality in real life. Of course you couldn't maintain a secret ID for a long time in real life, it'd require you to lie to everyone you know about the very core of your being, all the time. But in comic books, you get to look cool, punch out the bad guy, save the day, and get the girl. What's not to like about that? It's not only ethical, it's cool. And that's what superheroes is. Not realistic, not ethical or not, just cool.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Been using my super-powers to fight injustice in the world for years...

 

I'm just so good, nobody ever thought to consider I might be doing so. Oh, and the whole "comic book heroes" thing? Cover story. That way when people see me zipping around in my blue tights with red trunks and cape, they say to themselves, "Naaaaah... no way I'm telling anyone about this".

 

...Think about it.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Kind of reminds me why I think Superman would have a stone-cold-lead-pipe-lock of a secret ID- nobody would think that someone with his kind of powers and responsibilities would take time out to pretend to be a normal schlub for some of the time.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

An interesting point raised is that the superhero world is built on a number of unrealistic genre conventions as distinct from the real world. We live in a world where those genre conventions are ridiculous and unrealistic. The question is if we lived in those worlds and bought into the conventions, then what?

 

In the end, if people started developing powers in the real world, things go completely different. Someone invents supertech, it starts spreading all over the place. Look at the atomic bomb. In some ways it was the real world equivalent of supertech and despite U.S. efforts to keep it secret, it leaked and was independently reinvented in other places. Secret IDs are next to impossible to keep with modern technology and forensics, not to mention real world lifestyle demands.

[Badger]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Yeah, definitely would never wear tights. Heck, no. I cant even bring myself to let the characters I create in my games wear tights (usually a regular T-shirt and blue jeans with possibly a mask). It was the one thing in comics I could never deal with. Even at a young age.

 

 

If I had superpowers? Who knows. Truthfully, I would use my powers in a way, so I would just be left alone. I would help with problems that I come in contact with. But wouldnt actively seek them out to stop. I wouldnt commit any crimes per se. But if I have superpowers and I happen to be speeding or something, well the cops couldnt do nothing. If I had superpowers I could squash them like a bug. But, then I wouldnt intentionally draw any attention like that to myself either. So I guess I would be neutral in most aspects.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Kind of reminds me why I think Superman would have a stone-cold-lead-pipe-lock of a secret ID- nobody would think that someone with his kind of powers and responsibilities would take time out to pretend to be a normal schlub for some of the time.

 

Not really... I mean, in the real world, it turned out that that idea was darn easy to come up with.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

 

If I had superpowers? Who knows. Truthfully, I would use my powers in a way, so I would just be left alone. I would help with problems that I come in contact with. But wouldnt actively seek them out to stop. I wouldnt commit any crimes per se. But if I have superpowers and I happen to be speeding or something, well the cops couldnt do nothing. If I had superpowers I could squash them like a bug. But, then I wouldnt intentionally draw any attention like that to myself either. So I guess I would be neutral in most aspects.

 

Well, are you saying that if you had superpowers and the cops tried to give you a speeding ticket, you would use your powers to prevent the cops from fulfilling their duties of upholding the law? Unless you were speeding to some destination in service to society (i.e. to get to a burning school, etc), you've just become a supervillain.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Superman's Secret ID

 

Not really... I mean' date=' in the real world, it turned out that that idea was darn easy to come up with.[/quote']

 

I think that he had a "secret ID" because it allowed the writers to explore different aspect of his character, and allowed them to present a side of him more relevant to the reader, rather than some intrinsic rule of the genre- after all, the genre was being reinvented by these guys (superheroes). If Kal-El existed in the real world, my suspicion is that he wouldn't maintain his secret ID the way he does now. After all, the Fortress takes care of all his material needs. While he may, after a time, crave the social interaction that his secret ID provides, he's shown to be mentally tough enough to be able to face this hunger without succumbing to it.

 

I think if Kal was a real person in the real world with all the advantages he has in the comics, he would almost certainly not maintain "Clark Kent" as he does in the comics. That would be what was borderline-unethical, given his personal worldview.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Superman's Secret ID

 

If Kal-El existed in the real world' date=' my suspicion is that he wouldn't maintain his secret ID the way he does now. [/quote']

Setting aside the question of whether he *could* maintain it in the real world, I still think he seems like the kind of a guy who would prefer to live as normal a life as possible inbetween heroics. That kind of celebrity is a heavy burden, unless one is enough of a megalomanic to actually enjoy it. Maybe you're right that he's strong enough to handle it, but I still doubt that he'd choose it if he had an alternative. Besides, living in the "normal" world helps him keep his persective and keeps all the power from going to his head IMHO.

 

I think if Kal was a real person in the real world with all the advantages he has in the comics' date=' he would almost certainly not maintain "Clark Kent" as he does in the comics. [i']That[/i] would be what was borderline-unethical, given his personal worldview.

Interesting way to turn the question around: if you have superpowers, is it ethical to NOT use them? Certainly he wouldn't sit on the sidelines while some supermonster is tearing up the city. Nor would he stand idly by and watch someone get mugged -- and of course with his enhanced senses, he has a better chance of knowing such things are going on. But taking a more proactive role as a vigilante...? I dunno. I still have a hard time seeing it in the real world, but maybe that's just me. I can see him seeking some sort of official sanction -- whether by joining a law enforcement agency, or as an agency-unto-himself.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"The use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of the Blues Brothers...has been approved."

[dbsousa]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

If I get some superpowers and if working for the state is impossible (if I'm one of a kind and less than Dr. Manhattan, or if supers are common and illegal, or if it is illegal to use supers for law enforcement due to fourth, fifth, eighth, and tenth amendment issues) then I don't see how NOT crimefighting could be ethical.

 

Especially if I get a suite a powers like: missile deflection, find weakness, danger sense, and energy blast. What the heck else do I do? Work out for a few months, take more Jeet Kun Do, put on some tights, and get to it.

I would become a minesweeper with this set of powers. I would travel to foreign lands, identify the landmines, blast em, and deflect any stray shrapnel.

I figure I could rid the world of old landmines in twenty years or so...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Superman's Secret ID

 

I think that he had a "secret ID" because it allowed the writers to explore different aspect of his character, and allowed them to present a side of him more relevant to the reader, rather than some intrinsic rule of the genre- after all, the genre was being reinvented by these guys (superheroes). If Kal-El existed in the real world, my suspicion is that he wouldn't maintain his secret ID the way he does now. After all, the Fortress takes care of all his material needs. While he may, after a time, crave the social interaction that his secret ID provides, he's shown to be mentally tough enough to be able to face this hunger without succumbing to it.

 

I think if Kal was a real person in the real world with all the advantages he has in the comics, he would almost certainly not maintain "Clark Kent" as he does in the comics. That would be what was borderline-unethical, given his personal worldview.

 

That's as it maybe. But in OUR world, if a superhero showed up, it's pretty clear the first question would be "So, what's your Secret ID?".

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Good day Herophiles, I should have gotten involved earlier, but I needed to think about this carefully before relpying. The quote below speak to me of how I feel. I cannot articulate it any other way.

 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

 

What this means to me is that "If you have the ability to prevent evil then you are obliged to do so. For yourself and for others"

 

I work in secruity and this question plagues me daily. I take the bus through skid row every morning and every evening and I think about possible solutions and feel a sense of helplessness, but when confronted with an "Evil Act" (For lack of a better word) I respond immediately. I apply the enough force to neutralize the situation, but to strike a woman, harm a child or senior in my presence is a trigger. I will not stop until the offender is neutralized.

 

I am not by nature a combative person, but when confronted with "Evil" (For lack of a better word) I attack.

 

If I had the ability to fight crime I would. Using a combination of Vandelism and Vigilantism. Examples;

 

1. Pawn Shops, Sleezy Hotels, Check Cashing Stores, and Cheap Pizza Places would be vandalized and attention brought to them until the Law Enforcement Agencies responed. Broken Window, Doors, Locks, etc... and make the Scavenger elements of society aware of the opportunities.

 

2. Pot/Crack Houses, Shipping Containers of Drugs, etc... Vandalized or Victums of Arson, etc...

 

3. Drug Dealers, Trafficers, & etc... caught on Video and Posted on the Web, Pirated on TV Channels, and sent to the media.

 

4. Unrepentant Criminals become become victums of Harassment, Assault, and Threats. If they fail to reform then they are removed from existance.

 

5. Rapists, Murderers, etc... are removed from existance. No reprieve, no choice, etc...

 

6. Foreign & Domestic Corrupt Civil Servants (Police, Politicians, etc...) Exposed on Video and Posted on the Web, Pirated on TV Channels, and sent to the media.

 

7. Those who aid or profit from crime would find their buisnesses victums of Vandalism, Threats, and Video of their crimes Posted on the Web, Pirated on TV Channels, and sent to the media.

 

8. There are boundries I will not cross. Some boundries will not be visable until you push against them.

 

9. Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" & Niccolò Machiavelli's "The Prince" both state that in order for the State to survive the People must be aware of Punishment and Reward. The People are no longer afraid of the State's Punishment and are no longer encouraged with reward.

 

10. IMOHO, Crimefighting is ethical because society is no longer able to impose Ethical Behaviour on those who do not adhere to societies laws an ethics.

 

 

 

Respectfully, I do not believe in Vigilantism, but I Day Dream about it everytime I pass through skid row, see a crime in progress, or see injustices against the people by corrupt civil servants.

 

Cheers

 

QM

 

P.S.: No one likes to feel helpless.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Request for clarification:

If I had the ability to fight crime I would. Using a combination of Vandelism and Vigilantism.

Respectfully, I do not believe in Vigilantism, but I Day Dream about it...

I'm getting a mixed message here.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“I can't keep track of her when she's *not* incorporealy possessing a spaceship.â€

[ThothAmon]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I'd pull on the tights and go carve myself a small empire in a badly-run Third World country i.e. go where I could do some real good rather than whupping muggers on a part-time basis. And anybody who didn't like it could go talk to the hand / fist / laser eyes / mutant radioactive breath.

 

Facetious? Possibly, but I'd look at things on the grand scale.

 

And no, my secret ID is not George W Bush

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Request for clarification:

 

I'm getting a mixed message here.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“I can't keep track of her when she's *not* incorporealy possessing a spaceship.”

 

I personally believe that Vilgilantism is wrong and yet is it is glorified by Comics, TV, Film, etc...

 

And yet I understand what would drive someone to it. If I had nothing to lose and the ability to strike back I would have no hesitation, but then I have a lot a lot to lose.

 

"If wishes were horses, beggers would ride."

 

 

 

Cheers

 

QM

[OddHat]

Re: Superman's Secret ID

 

I think if Kal was a real person in the real world with all the advantages he has in the comics, he would almost certainly not maintain "Clark Kent" as he does in the comics. That would be what was borderline-unethical, given his personal worldview.

 

Al Schroeder, long time Superman writer, had an interesting take on this. If he were able to write "Superman in the Real World", he'd get rid of the Clark / Superman divide.

 

Clark Kent was raised as Clark Kent, went to school as Clark Kent, and built a very successful career as Clark Kent. He is Clark Kent. "Superman" is his way of using his powers to do good and, because adventuring is fun, for kicks, without interfering too much in his regular life. He could use his powers to make himself vastly wealthy, and he might even be able to do more good that way. He doesn't because he likes being a journalist, and there's nothing more money can buy him that he wants. It may be a character flaw, but he'd rather hang on to his normal life.

 

I've adopted some of this for my own version of Hugo "Clark Kent" Danner.

[assault]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I'd pull on the tights and go carve myself a small empire in a badly-run Third World country

 

And I'd probably pull on the tights and try and stop you.

 

Although it might depend which "badly-run Third World country" you chose. At least I might hold off for a while in some cases. In other cases I'd come at you like an atomic powered berserker...

 

Aside from stomping empire builders, I would probably just concentrate on humanitarian projects.

 

Hmm... of course, stopping empire builders would require me to do some serious combat training, and build up a support team. The training would require taking time off from the humanitarian work, but the team could be established through the contacts made during it.

[OddHat]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Stomping Empire Builders probably means leaving chaotic messes behind you, unless you stomp them before they grab their first country.

 

Of course, one man grabbing an entire country without building an organization is not going to happen either, unless he's one heck of a mind controller.