Is Crimefighting Ethical?

[assault]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Stomping Empire Builders probably means leaving chaotic messes behind you' date=' unless you stomp them before they grab their first country.[/quote']

 

That's true, of course.

 

The best way of minimising the chaos, if you can't preempt the takeover, is to go in very early. That way you might be able to manage a decent succession, or even put the previous government back in power.

 

Of course, there is still a risk of a Rwanda-style bloodbath, or Somalia-style anarchy, but that's the fault of the fool that meddled with the situation in the first place. Ultimately, the intervening hero can only trust in the locals to be able to sort their own affairs out - but that's the reason for intervening in the first place.

 

Certainly leaving the Empire Builders in place would do nothing to make the situation better. Better one Somalia than ten or twenty.

 

And in some cases, you could also discreetly throw control of the country to the people you want to see running it...

 

Of course, one man grabbing an entire country without building an organization is not going to happen either, unless he's one heck of a mind controller.

 

Yes. Or even a small group of people.

 

We are rather obviously off in supervillain land when this kind of stuff is going on.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Well' date=' if you had a power like Esper Mami's "Danger Sense, citywide, keeps going off until the danger has passed or you do something about it, manifests as ringing in your ears", you might choose to fight crime just out of self-defense.[/quote']

 

A vaguely similar case showed up in Stormwatch: Team Achilles. Hamaleinen Jukko is an empath, except with two nasty limitations.

 

First, he can only perceive pain and suffering. Second, he can't turn it off.

 

Basically, he does his best to ensure that the mile or so around his residence is as free of any crime or persistent misery as possible, so he can actually sleep at night.

[Steve]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Another thing to consider is the temptations offered by having superpowers. This is how supervillains get created.

 

Say you could control people's minds, then wouldn't you be tempted to use such a power on an attractive member of the opposite sex? How about getting out of a ticket for speeding? What about going into politics?

 

If you were able to turn invisible, wouldn't you be tempted to go places you normally wouldn't be able to go, and do it just because you could?

 

If you were resistant to damage up to a nuclear bomb blast and able to lift a couple of tons without breaking a sweat, what's to prevent you from just taking anything you want?

 

Taking superpowers into the real world brings us to Iron Age questions of morality. Why bother stopping crime or doing good deeds? Why not just satisfy your own desires instead?

[Badger]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Actually Manic Typist, I, personally probably wouldnt (powers or not). As I tend to be law-abiding. But then again since we are adding superpowers to the mix, maybe the power would corrupt me. I do have to say if there were superpowers, lots of people would go villain. There are probably a healthy portion of people who dont cause trouble only because they cant get away with it. What if you could? With superpowers they can be above the law. And if they have no morality other than "I might get caught" who is to stop them. Me? The biggest crime I have ever did was speed or skip school, so I guess I wouldnt. But with superpowers, I would have to admit the temptation would be there. Which is kind of why I mentioned it.

 

 

Course for all I know, I might do like TothAmon said and make my own empire. Ruling as a "benevolent" dictator.

[input.jack]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I have to respond to some comments made, here.

 

"Besides, the crimefighting thing seems to be a thin veneer for reactionary oppression of the common man."

 

How? How is stopping crime oppressing the "common man"? Unless the common man is a mugger or other criminal. Reactionary? Please, explain this to me. It sounds to me (*WARNING: Personal Opinion approaching*) that your group of friends and fellow gamers may not fully understand what being a crime-fighter or superhero is about. Now, if youve only been reading these "Iron Age" comics, I can understand that. Anyone who thinks The Authority is about -heroes- has misunderstood the term.

 

Like the writer of that drek did.

 

 

"Taking superpowers into the real world brings us to Iron Age questions of morality. Why bother stopping crime or doing good deeds? Why not just satisfy your own desires instead?"

 

Because that would be WRONG. Right and wrong have nothing to do with punishment, or whether or not you can get away with it. Right and wrong have everything to do with whether or not your actions bring help, or hurt, to other people. Right actions are those that help others in a positive way, and lead to the growth of your soul. Wrong actions are those that bring harm to others. Selfishness is a form of evil.

 

Stopping crime and doing good deeds, REALLY good deeds (things that make a difference in peoples' lives, not just for show, or imposing ones own theological views on others) are all the more important for a person to do, the more power that person has. If you only think of yourself, eventually your empathy for other people withers and dies. And then your just a heartless, soulless monster.

 

 

"Pawn Shops, Sleezy Hotels, Check Cashing Stores, and Cheap Pizza Places would be vandalized and attention brought to them until the Law Enforcement Agencies responed. Broken Window, Doors, Locks, etc... and make the Scavenger elements of society aware of the opportunities. "

 

Okay, THIS I have some serious problems with! We have NO indication that these places of business are doing ANYTHING wrong. And by targeting check cashing stores and CHEAP PIZZA PLACES youre just sadistically making life miserable for those at the bottom end of the socio-economic scale. ESPECIALLY the honest, hard-working, but unlucky people who happen to be at that end of the spectrum. (Not everyone at that end of the spectrum is honest or hard working, but neither is everyone at ANY end of the spectrum). And why Pawn Shops? Why "sleazy Hotels"? Do you have some personal grudge against people pawning their guitars? Or sleeping somewhere at a reasonably low price? Who decides what "sleazy" is? You?

 

I dont think I trust your judgement!

[OddHat]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I'd say that questions of the temptation that comes with power are very much germane to this conversation.

 

Resisting temptation when you have no opportunities is easy. Resisting temptation when opportunities are all around you is possible (people do it every day), but harder. In a real world with powers situation, some otherwise law abiding people are likely to use their new powers to commit crimes. Yes, it's "wrong"; some people will realize that and hold back. Others won't.

 

Pawn shops are sometimes fences. Cheap hotels are often used as assignation sites by prostitutes and their clients. That said, I don't see vandalizing them as justifiable.

 

That's part of the problem with vigilante activity; the vigilante is following his own judgment. Sometimes, his judgment won't agree with the law or common morality.

[starblaze]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Kind of reminds me why I think Superman would have a stone-cold-lead-pipe-lock of a secret ID- nobody would think that someone with his kind of powers and responsibilities would take time out to pretend to be a normal schlub for some of the time.

 

That is what happened when Lex Luthor had his computer put in all this information he had about Superman and when it figured out that SuperMan was Clark Kent he refused to believe it.

[starblaze]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Then there's Spider-Man. He wanted to be an entertainer and use his powers to make all kinds of money. But a moment of selfish irresponsibility led to the death of his beloved uncle--and a lifetime of atoning for that moment by making sure it happens to no one else.

 

Did anyone ever read the What if? SpiderMan had continued to be an entertainer?

[OddHat]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Then there's Spider-Man. He wanted to be an entertainer and use his powers to make all kinds of money. But a moment of selfish irresponsibility led to the death of his beloved uncle--and a lifetime of atoning for that moment by making sure it happens to no one else.

 

This kind of moves away from Crime Fighting in the real world if you had the power to do so and towards Crime Fighting in the comics.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

That's part of the problem with vigilante activity; the vigilante is following his own judgment. Sometimes' date=' his judgment won't agree with the law or common morality.[/quote']

Exactly. Or his judgement may sometimes be just flat wrong. So you beat up someone that "everyone knows" is a big-time drug dealer, only to find out that everyone was wrong. Personally, I've had to use the eraser-end of the pencil far too often in my life to have any illusions about my own infalibility.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“Rasputin, bring in the bucket of soapy frogs and remove his trousers!â€

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I personally believe that Vilgilantism is wrong and yet is it is glorified by Comics, TV, Film, etc...

 

And yet I understand what would drive someone to it. If I had nothing to lose and the ability to strike back I would have no hesitation, but then I have a lot a lot to lose.

OK, thanks for the clarification QM. The thing is, I agree passionately with parts of your post, but I disagree just as passionately with other parts.

 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

 

What this means to me is that "If you have the ability to prevent evil then you are obliged to do so. For yourself and for others"

See, I’m with you 100% here. I believe if we see evil happening, particularly if someone’s getting hurt, we have a moral obligation to DO SOMETHING. That may or may not include jumping in with fists flying -– my Action Hero days, sadly, are of the past –- or it may mean calling 911, shouting “The police are coming!” or even writing down the SOB’s license plate, or whatever you feel you can do without making the situation worse. (I.e. – I wouldn’t try and wrestle the bank robber and wind up getting other people shot; I’d do everything I could to get him out of the bank as quickly as possible, while memorizing everything I could about him to help the police catch him.)

 

Similarly, if someone hurt someone I loved and I couldn’t go after them legally, I would likely go after them any way I could. I acknowledge that would be wrong, and if caught I would probably go to jail, and I’d deserve it. But I’d still do it.

 

If I had the ability to fight crime I would. Using a combination of Vandelism and Vigilantism. Examples;

 

Here, I think, is where we part company. To me, there is a huge step from “Stopping evil when it pops up in front of me wearing a sign” to “Making it my mission in life to punish those I feel deserve punishment.” Taking you & me out of the equation for a moment, do I trust That Guy On The Street -- no not him, the guy next to him -- to act as judge, jury, and (if he’s so inclined) executioner? Even assuming that he has the "correct" beliefs and values, what gives him (or me) the right to impose them on others by force? And what makes me think he would be any better at fighting crime than the professionals? Not to go all Lawful Good here, but in the real world "talented amateurs" are almost never more effective than a group of dedicated professionals.

 

So yes, if I woke up tomorrow with superpowers I think I could find a better way to put them to use than my current desk job. And I certainly wouldn't sit by and watch while Grond tore up downtown. But I also wouldn’t make the mistake of assuming that the ability to do something gives me the right to do so. In the real world, vigilantism is a cure that is almost always worse than the disease it purports to cure.

 

Sure does make for great fiction, `tho.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“I know that there are people who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!”

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Pawn Shops' date=' Sleazy Hotels, Check Cashing Stores, and Cheap Pizza Places would be vandalized and attention brought to them until the Law Enforcement Agencies respond. Broken Window, Doors, Locks, etc... and make the Scavenger elements of society aware of the opportunities.[/quote']

 

This would be regarding my post.

 

Okay' date=' THIS I have some serious problems with! We have NO indication that these places of business are doing ANYTHING wrong. And by targeting check cashing stores and CHEAP PIZZA PLACES you re just sadistically making life miserable for those at the bottom end of the socio-economic scale. ESPECIALLY the honest, hard-working, but unlucky people who happen to be at that end of the spectrum. (Not everyone at that end of the spectrum is honest or hard working, but neither is everyone at ANY end of the spectrum). And why Pawn Shops? Why "sleazy Hotels"? Do you have some personal grudge against people pawning their guitars? Or sleeping somewhere at a reasonably low price? Who decides what "sleazy" is? You?.[/quote']

 

Yes, I can see your point of view and I guess I did not present my points carefully. I will try to be more clear, but please bare with me.

 

First off, I was raised in a low income family, by a single parent, and have been unfortunate enough to have lived on the streets for several months before a very good friend saw me, took me in, and got me back on my feet.

 

I also worked Graveyard Security for 7yrs in and around the skid row area. I believe this means I know where of I speak (I could be wrong).

 

I do know that a large number of these businesses deal regularly with the criminals or act as bases of operation for criminal activities. I observed criminal activities night after night.

 

I made Citizen's Arrests about every other day. I wrote reports, took pictures, and made the acquaintances of members of the local gangs, dealers, loan sharks, motor cycle gang member (Thank you Mom for surviving that, but that is another story).

 

I acquired the tools of the trade from my varied Citizen's Arrests, I watched and learned how to break into cars, by pass basic Security doors, etc, etc, etc... It was like attending a Crime College.

 

I went to work every night charged with energy wondering what will happen next. I went home every morning angry and exhausted.

 

I view the concentration of these businesses like a cancers. Living off victims who live there.

 

I don't think I trust your judgement!

 

I totally agree that you should not trust my judgement. Any Crimefighter's judgement should be suspect.

 

I am targeting crime that I have personally observed.

 

Now as a Crimefighter I would only target businesses that I have thoroughly investigated. I would obviously prefer to go after the Big Bosses, but as I do not know who they are I would settle for disrupting, destroying, or exposing their operations.

 

I don't see vandalizing them as justifiable.

I understand your point of view and in reality agree with it. Criminals and by association crime is a buisness and when you cannot do buisness because your windows were broken and borded up, your place was robbed, you car had it's tires slashed, etc, etc, etc... Then there is no buisness. If it happens often enough they will go out of buisness.

 

The Crimefighter did not assault the criminals, did not kill anyone, and the only thing you hurt was their buttom line.

 

Is that better or did I miss something?

 

Respectfully

 

QM

[OddHat]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I understand your point of view and in reality agree with it. Criminals and by association crime is a buisness and when you cannot do buisness because your windows were broken and borded up, your place was robbed, you car had it's tires slashed, etc, etc, etc... Then there is no buisness. If it happens often enough they will go out of buisness.

 

The Crimefighter did not assault the criminals, did not kill anyone, and the only thing you hurt was their buttom line.

 

Is that better or did I miss something?

 

In part it's the Judgement issue again. You the vigilante have decided that Paul's Pizza is the hang out of criminals. You decide to vandalize the place until Paul closes down, reasoning that the Criminals will have to move elsewhere.

 

How do you know that Paul is a criminal? Maybe he's just a guy running a pizza shop in a bad neighborhood. Chase him out, and the crooks just move to the shop next door. Meanwhile, Paul is out of business. The rest of the people who ate at that shop get that much less choice. Blmeless people have been hurt (in one case seriously) for the sake of mildly inconveniencing some crooks.

 

Say you do think that Paul is a crook, that his Pizza shop is gang or mob owned, or that he's a gangster himself. What happens if you're wrong?

 

Speaking from experience, sooner or later, we're all wrong about someone.

 

Yes, people in the Criminal Justice system make mistakes (tons of them). They're still more accountable and less likely to screw up than random citizens throwing bricks through store windows because they think Bad Guys own the places.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

More clarity need eh?

 

The businesses I would target as a Crimefighter would be ones that I have investigated and know to be involved in criminal activities.

 

However in my experience many of these businesses do aggravate an already aggravating situation.

 

How would you handle it? In my experience these buisnesses attract the criminal element. How do you reconcil that? How do you justify issuing them a buisness licence, supplying them, etc...

 

Respectfully

 

QM

[OddHat]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

More clarity need eh?

 

The businesses I would target as a Crimefighter would be ones that I have investigated and know to be involved in criminal activities.

 

No disrespect intended to your investigative skills, but they are businesses you believe to be involved in criminal activities. That doesn't mean you're right.

 

However in my experience many of these businesses do aggravate an already aggravating situation.

 

How would you handle it?

 

I'd report suspicious activity that worried me to the authorities. If I were committed and passionate, I might join or start a citizens group, write letters to the editor drawing attention to the situation, maybe even become a cop.

 

I've seen neighborhoods cleaned up by similar methods.

 

Communal action isn't Heroic on the surface, but it does sometimes work.

 

In my experience these buisnesses attract the criminal element. How do you reconcil that? How do you justify issuing them a buisness licence, supplying them, etc...

 

I don't.

 

Respectfully,

 

-Bob

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

No disrespect intended to your investigative skills' date=' but they are businesses you believe to be involved in criminal activities. That doesn't mean you're right.[/quote']

No it does not mean I am right, but when you see a crime you report it and nothing happens how else do you respond. The Police are understaffed, overworked, and sometimes just do not have the resources to respond.

 

I have seen the Police's Green Team literally not have the man power to bust every Grow Op that is reported. They do not have any space to hold the evidence, their is not enough hours in the day for them to have an impact on this criminal enterprise.

 

Do you really want to risk your family, friends, and neighbours by exposing them to criminals who have no compunction about threading, intimidating, and vandalizing them.

 

I have made Citizen's Arrests at 6am in the morning and then arrest the same criminal less than 14hrs later.

 

I'd report suspicious activity that worried me to the authorities. If I were committed and passionate' date=' I might join or start a citizens group, write letters to the editor drawing attention to the situation, maybe even become a cop. I've seen neighborhoods cleaned up by similar methods.[/quote']

 

I would never become a Cop. I would not like who I would have to become.

 

"write letters to the editor drawing attention to the situation"

This is part of what I meant about exposing criminal activities to the Media.

 

"If I were committed and passionate"

I here yah here, but is not that what Crimefighting is about.

 

Communal action isn't Heroic on the surface' date=' but it does sometimes work.[/quote']

A great point and one I agree whole heatedly agree with, but do you or I have the constitution, the depth of character to see it through?

 

 

 

More Respect

 

QM

 

P.S.: BTW Great Topic and Thread folks.

[OddHat]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

No it does not mean I am right' date=' but when you see a crime you report it and nothing happens how else do you respond.[/quote']

 

Through community action and contacting the media or not at all. I do not have the right to resort to violence save if I'm actually watching a crime in progress, and then only in self defense or rightful defense of another. It's not Heroic, it's just life.

 

 

A great point and one I agree whole heatedly agree with, but do you or I have the constitution, the depth of character to see it through?

 

My mother brags, possibly correctly, that she is personally responsible for driving the strip clubs, sex toy stores and porn theaters out of our area (not that I have much against those businesses). She was the organizing force behind the community action that drove them off. Her opponents included suspected organized crime figures and (bizarre as it seems) Jerry Lewis; she was a schoolteacher at the time. True story.

 

I think you or I could manage pushing one local criminal run store or restaurant out of business without resorting to vandalism, if it came down to it.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Through community action and contacting the media or not at all. I do not have the right to resort to violence save if I'm actually watching a crime in progress' date=' and then only in self defense or rightful defense of another. It's not Heroic, it's just life. [/quote']

 

There is that pesky question eh? Who has the "RIGHT!!!". And I am totally with you about Self Defence and Defence of Others.

 

My mother brags' date=' possibly correctly, that she is personally responsible for driving the strip clubs, sex toy stores and porn theaters out of our area (not that I have much against those businesses). She was the organizing force behind the community action that drove them off. Her opponents included suspected organized crime figures and (bizarre as it seems) Jerry Lewis; she was a schoolteacher at the time. True story.[/quote']

Dude, your Mom is totally cool. Is she willing to fight in Vancouver, BC?

 

I think you or I could manage pushing one local criminal run store or restaurant out of business without resorting to vandalism' date=' if it came down to it.[/quote']

I would hope so. I know what tools are available to me and how to implement them. Have we as a society become overly cautious or afraid to confront evil unless it is right infront of us?

 

 

 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

 

QM

[OddHat]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

There is that pesky question eh? Who has the "RIGHT!!!".

 

Extend the right to violence to someone you disagree with and you'll regret it.

 

 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

 

Going to the cops and the zoning board is something, and probably a better choice than vandalism or a shooting spree.

 

We all feel the urge to crush the unrighteous. Doing so with a hammer gets messy.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to OddHat again."

 

What I'd be curious to hear is: has anyone made any attempt to address these sort of issues in-game? Or do you just write it off as a genre thing and play on? I myself am in the latter camp; I don't think I'd enjoy playing a "realistic" vigilantee game.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“What the world needs now is another folk singer… like I need a hole in my head.â€

[Starlord]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

Remember that some 'vigilantes' started their careers, and/or currently work, under the umbrella of corrupt local government and such (re: the recent Batman Begins movie). We should also keep in mind that in order to accurately express opinion on the subject we have to place ourselves in the mindset of a particular comic world. In many of these worlds, you would grow up thinking that vigilanteism and wearing your underwear outside your pants is fairly normal. We can accept, for example, that Captain America would be a universally loved figure even in our world, but we might laugh out loud or feel very uncomfortable were he to be actually standing in front of us in that rather 'loud' costume of his, yet the normals of the MU are completely unfazed.

 

I can accept the opinion that day-to-day crimefighting is totally unrealistic any way you look at it. Crimefighting situations are continually contrived for the purpose of the story. Unless you have wide-ranging clairaudience and clairsentience-type powers and/or cosmic awareness, you'd VERY rarely find yourself in position to 'confront' the bad-guys.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to OddHat again."

 

What I'd be curious to hear is: has anyone made any attempt to address these sort of issues in-game? Or do you just write it off as a genre thing and play on? I myself am in the latter camp; I don't think I'd enjoy playing a "realistic" vigilantee game.

 

I have not been in a campaign that addresses these issues in game and I think that it is part of the Fantasy element of the Genre.

 

Good stuff

 

QM

[OddHat]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

What I'd be curious to hear is: has anyone made any attempt to address these sort of issues in-game? Or do you just write it off as a genre thing and play on? I myself am in the latter camp; I don't think I'd enjoy playing a "realistic" vigilantee game.

 

I rarely touch on it directly in game, but it is part of the background.

 

Vigilante types with powers who are not known to be screwing up are generally watched but otherwise tollerated by the police and sometime lauded by the public. If they should get in legal trouble for their actions, that may be used to pressure them to join the OSI (think of it as an expanded version of PRIMUS) or a corporate team, in exchange for legal assistance. The public can turn on a vigilante who step over the line, but it can take quite a bit (Bernard Goetz).

 

Most older and more respected Supers who actively adventure are part of an OSI or Corporate sponsored Super team, and tend to fill the combined role of SWAT Teams and Special Investigative units working closely with the police and law enforcement agencies.

 

Most People with Powers eventually stop adventuring at all, on either side of the law, either fading into high level government or corporate service or just pursuing their own private goals.

[ZootSoot]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

I have to respond to some comments made, here.

 

"Besides, the crimefighting thing seems to be a thin veneer for reactionary oppression of the common man."

 

 

You only have to read a few Julie Schwartz Superman comics to realize that right and wrong were pretty much what Superman said they were. Herbert Hoover used the FBI to combat Martin Luther King, Jr. because King was breaking the law. When SCOTUS says that it is okay for the state to take your home and give it to Wal-Mart to build a supercenter the lawful hero is the one enforcing the ruling. Justice and law are not necessarily synonyms. Crimefighting on the level of stopping muggers and rapists is one thing, beating the snot out of people building a better life form themselves and their families by selling cocaine to yuppie scum is another.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical?

 

"Besides' date=' the crimefighting thing seems to be a thin veneer for reactionary oppression of the common man." [/quote']

I am confused by this, what do you mean. As a Crimefighter I would be going after all criminals I had investigated and found to be guilty through their actions.

 

I was writing from the stand point of personal experience.

 

If I had the personal experience with a different social, political, or cultural elite, and the average citizen then they would become my focus.

 

I apologize if it came out otherwise.

 

Respectfully

 

QM