dbsousa Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 I was filling out the Superhero ethical questionnaire and I realized something. I can't imagine the set of powers that I would have that would make me choose to be a costumed vigilante. I might choose to work for a law enforcement agency. I might make a citizen's arrest if I saw a crime in progress. But devoting my life to "fighting crime" seems like a highly unethical and impractical decision. I accept the premise of costumed vigilantes in my comic books and rpg's, because there is an accepted culture of vigilanteism, where powerful beings who are above the law can only be beaten by other powerful beings above the law. I accept the premise of "Orcs are evil" in my fantasy literature and RPG's in much the same way. It is a literary conceit that would be repugnant in the real world, though. If this topic belongs in the NGD, let me know, but it seems like a valid tangent to discuss what literary conceits of this genre are ethically realistic in the real world. (Plus the original questionnaire seems to be hung up on a topic I would rather not read in this forum...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? I agree, I don't think I'd slap on the tights and fight crime maintaining a secret ID. If I had powers like being bulletproof, superstrong and the like, I'd probably seek out a job with the FBI or other Law Enforcement as a "Super SWAT" guy. Get sent into the dangerous situations against armed folks where I wouldn't be in real danger, but other normal agents/officers would be, even with body armor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? Depends. Seeing a crime in progress and trying to protect an innocent person is ethical. Helping someone in need is ethical. Being part of a crime watch group and calling in suspicious activities is generally ethical (if prone to abuse). Joining a posse? Probably ethical. Rescuing a baby from a burning building if you have the skills needed to do so? It doesn't get much more ethical than that. Stalking people you suspect of criminal behavior and attacking them is highly questionable, probably unethical, possibly criminal. Torturing them to get information on other "criminals" is worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? I wouldn't wear tights even if there was a culture of superheroism. I would however adopt something relatively badass in the way of "conventional" clothing. I think this is why you had the influx of trench-coated, teeth clenched heroes of the past couple decades; Because people can picture themselves doing that, but unless they're particularly free spirits, can't picture themselves wearing red & blue with their underwear on the outside. But costuming aside, I think superpowers are like lethal martial arts; They're something to be respected. If you wanted to run around fighting crime with your bare fists I think it's a dangerous endeavor. There has to be a certain amount of assurance that you are going to cause more good than harm (Get people shot, hurt criminals unneccessarily, put bystanders in danger, etc). That's why cops are licensed to carry fire arms and trained thoroughly. If I was the only person in the world with powers, you can bet I'd find a way to use them. I could never be a cop though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZootSoot Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? This is the source of a lot of culture clash for me. In my home group we run a lot of games about people with superpowers, but who are not professional crimefighters and we run a few games about non-powered (or nearly non-powered) vigilante groups. I always feel weird when I find myself in a game about superpowered professional (whether paid or not) crimefighters. Besides, the crimefighting thing seems to be a thin veneer for reactionary oppression of the common man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incrdbil Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? Costume and tights? Nope. I'd be in something practical--pockets for helpful items, equipment. Preferably somethign that doesn't stand out, and adapatable for various conditions, that can rapidly be covered or utilized with oridnaru clothing for maximum concealability. Register or make my abilities known to the government? Never. Too risky personally if someone decides that my abilites pose a national security issue..and I disappear, or my family gets taken into protective custody. Because then I become a villain.... In a terms of effectiveness, making my self known and part of the government might not help. Especially if my abilities had super-perception like X ray vision remote viewing, or other mental special effects. Then I have to bother with warrants, probable cause. Of course, if the ability were a 'natural sense' to me, the need for a warrant is questionable. Anonymous tips though, are fine and dandy for the police. Heck, if I just had telepathy and mind control, my crimefighting could just be hanging around courtrooms and creating some spontaneous confessions or changes of heart that result in an appropriate conviction or dismissal. Still, the government approval would be handy--a telepath could be a great 'court of last appeal' for capital cases. A Mind Scanner would be good to help on warrants, kidnapping cases or other missing persons issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvar Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? What about the central trope of superhero fiction - it's not (usually) "normal" crime that you're fighting, but Super crime, comitted by superpowered criminals. The Police - and possibly, even up to the National Guard - can't take these guys. Your powers at least mean you can stand a chance. What then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbsousa Posted January 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? I wonder if there were any set of powers that would convince me to "fight crime"? It seems that almost any power could be put to a better use than crimefighting... Super Villain Whupping is another story entirely. If I have the power cosmic, and some dude in a jet pack is taking potshots at civilians, "It's Clobberin' Time!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? What about the central trope of superhero fiction - it's not (usually) "normal" crime that you're fighting, but Super crime, comitted by superpowered criminals. The Police - and possibly, even up to the National Guard - can't take these guys. Your powers at least mean you can stand a chance. What then? Pretty much the same if you're not an agent of the government. In cases where you witness a crime or disaster in progress, it's ethical to intervene. Following people and violating their privacy to find out if they are Supers is questionable. breaking into private property or attacking someone because you suspect Super criminal activity is probably unethical. If you are a Super Cop or otherwise have the legal right to act, it's a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? I wonder if there were any set of powers that would convince me to "fight crime"? It seems that almost any power could be put to a better use than crimefighting... I've worked in cities all my life, often in high-crime areas. I've never witnessed a crime in progress other than drug offenses and vice. I wouldn't want to devote my life to beating up drug dealers one at a time, and I wouldn't have the right to do so (if my understanding of American law is correct). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanMetal Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? But costuming aside' date=' I think superpowers are like lethal martial arts; They're something to be respected.[/quote'] If you are a black belt (in a martial arts of course) you are suppose to register as a “weapon†(or it was your fists? I can’t remember). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? Urban legend. Martial artists do not have to register. It is true, however, that a non-beginner martial artist (or a professional boxer, or equivalent) faces additional legal penalties if they get in a brawl -- what would be a simple assault cjarge for Joe Schmo is instead aggravated assault for them, as they are considered to be 'armed' at all times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? I could see it being ethical, even the only practical choice under certain circumstances. If the realities of the world are: -Superpowered villains exist, that are a serious threat to society, that can only be stopped by other superpowered individuals. -These villains have wiped out the public ID type heroes and those whose secret ID was known to the gov't (managed to hack in/otherwise steal the info). Further supers with public ID or govt known ID are likely to face the same fate as long as the villains exist. Then if someone had the power to directly oppose these villains that would otherwise poison Michigan, blow up Tennessee and the like, I think it would be a moral imperative to try to do so. Given the previous evidence of "my family and I would be wiped out in my sleep if they know who I am", then masks and secret IDs become necessary. In effect, the heroes are fighting a guerrilla war against the villains, emerging to strike, then melting back into the general populace. The only way to remove the heroes would be to wipe out large chunks of the populace, which these villains are willing and eager to do even if there were no heroes, so the presence of the heroes does not place the general public in any greater danger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmakaze Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? I had a tremendous amount of fun working up an NPC at one point who was a devout Quaker and actually held to the pacifism thing. ("If I, with my gifts, cannot live by my ideals, how can I ask it of anyone else?") She rescued people from natural disasters / superhero fights / alien invasions, etc and did a lot of public charity work but explicity did not fight crime. ("You'd be amazed how much good there is to do in the world that does not involve hitting people.") She handled violent crime when she encountered it by keeping people from getting hurt and the occasional presence attack. The concept came from the incredible amount of vitriol I saw being aimed at "pacifists" (back in the Vietnam era, for example, and in some more current politically charged debates) that seemed... notably out of proportion. I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that a lot of religious ideals claim to prefer nonvolence (e.g. "Thou shall not kill") and yet very few people actually follow those ideals. Someone who does is percieved as implicity criticizing that, and nobody likes to feel judged. I thought it would be fascinating to see how two-fisted superheroes would react with someone with such a non-traditional heroic worldview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? The problem I would have with joining the Police or the FBI or whatnot, is that somebody would eventually get the idea of how to "best utilize" my powers. There are manipulators out there in the government and corporate circles of power that could pretty easily find my buttons. Before I knew it, I'd probably wind up a super assassin for the CIA or something. I wouldn't like that. I'd wear a disguise and hide my identity while trying to do good. But fight crime? probably not. It wouldn't be an efficient use of my super abilities (whatever they might be). It would be far better to watch CNN and the local news and find emergencies to respond to (missing people, natural disasters, etc.) If I tried to go around fighting crime, I'd probably spend more time looking for it than fighting it. And then some joker would want to sue me for beating him up. Keith "my 2¢" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? Now there's a good point. Hiding your identity in comics is complicated but not impossible. In real life, if you run around deflecting bullets with your pinky finger or chasing down a speeding car to drag it to a halt, there's a good chance that these sorts incidents are going to occur in your secret ID. Question then becomes: If you are a costumed crimefighter here in our world, do you ignore the busload of nuns driving off a cliff because you don't have time to change into your costume? I'd like to think that while the nuns are pretty surely destined for heaven, I'd still give them a longer shot on this planet, even if my secret ID is blown. And also, it would be nearly impossible to keep a secret id. If reporters followed you from scene of crime to scene of crime they're going to pick up on something. Someone you know who is watching the news one night is going to recognize your voice. There's no putting on Glasses to become Clark Kent. So I think most folks would end up being public IDs, even if they didn't start out that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? Well, you could make a serious effort to stay off the news. Camcorder and security camera footage might be a problem if you actually spend a lot of time heroing in places where you can be spotted, but a mask can help there. Fingerprint may be a problem, but there are always gloves. A full FBI push to figure out who you are might eventually work, certainly if you show up for Talk Show interviews and similar nonsense. Still, there are criminals who avoid capture for decades. I think a Secret ID could be maintained if you didn't fall into Comic Book cliches. And, if you're at all ethical, you'll stop the out of control bus even if you don't have your mask. Better hope no one is filming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorsch Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? enforcing societys collective will is not in itself ethical or unethical, a individual decides what is right and does the best he can from there. Just because society deams your action illegal does not make them unethical. If your traped in a ally by several thugs intent on harming you, the apearance of batman would i hope come as somthing of a relief, and i bet my last cent (if i owned any) that youd consider him a hero. In fact youd probabily pray for the Punisher to massacre the lot of them. So to look at the title "is crimefighting ethical" well depends on your definition of crime. Or as i see it "Is standing up for Justice(idealised) and defending those who cannot do it for themselves in a possibly Illegal vigilante manner not endorsed by the current administration ethical" Sure is in my book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? Just because society deams your action illegal does not make them unethical. True enough. However... If your traped in a ally by several thugs intent on harming you' date=' the apearance of batman would i hope come as somthing of a relief, and i bet my last cent (if i owned any) that youd consider him a hero.[/quote'] Sure, but you're talking about stopping a violent crime in progress. That is completely legal, and morally defensible under just about any ethical system. But as Oddhat correctly points out, if you restrict yourself to stopping crimes-in-progress that you just stumble across, you're going to have a pretty slow career. Becoming a "self-employed crimefighter" goes considerably father than that. The type of vigilanteeism expressed in most superhero comics routinely involves breaking and entering, stalking, trespassing, assault & battery... and that's on a good day. The comic-book vigilante ethic only works if you assume that the people who become vigilantees are all of unquestionable moral character and absolutely never make mistakes, and so therefore do not require any form of oversight. Frankly, it's very close to "might makes right." It also presupposes that the police are completely incompetant (or corrupt or something) and therefore any amateur who slaps on a pair of tights is automatically better at solving crimes than the professionals. To turn your argument around: if someone broke into your home wearing a mask, assaulted you, tied you up, searched your home, and questioned you about some illegal activity you may or may not have been involved in... I bet the arrival of the police to arrest the "hero" would come as something of a relief. So to look at the title "is crimefighting ethical" well depends on your definition of crime. Or as i see it "Is standing up for Justice(idealised) and defending those who cannot do it for themselves in a possibly Illegal vigilante manner not endorsed by the current administration ethical" I'm no fan of the current administration, but I don't think we can blame this one on them. [i kid! I kid!] Vigilanteeism is illegal in every modern society that I'm aware of, for good reason. It makes for great comics, movies, etc, but in real-life it leads to mob violence and a lot of innocent corpses. bigdamnhero “He's not the first psycho to hire us nor the last. You think that's a commentary on us?†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? Oh BTW: good luck getting any evidence you gather admitted into court, so unless you do plan on going the Punisher route, anyone you catch will be back on the streets before you've finished washing their blood off your knuckles. Any cop will tell you that in 90% of cases, identifying the perpetrator is the easy part -- the hard part is proving it in a court of law. bigdamnhero “He thinks we're either a threat, food, or a mate. He's gonna either kill us, eat us, or hump us.†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? Given the right power set, I'd offer my services to the local police for helping stop whatever crimes they thought they might need help with, in exchange for training in whatever would help me to do the job right. And I'd make sure they didn't have any ethical quandries about me using the notoriety of my position and powers to sell books, by which I'd make my living (rather than using taxpayer dollars). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? It may not be ethical, but it sure is fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? It may not be ethical' date=' but it sure is fun![/quote'] Rats, there go those pesky morals getting between me and a good time. Again. Hate it when they do that. Sorry if my earlier post came across as more of a rant than I intended. bigdamnhero “I think I'm going to be unwell.†“Ladies are unwell, Stone. Gentlemen vomit.†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakboy6117 Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? my current super hero alter ego teh new englander is a private eye most of his crime fighting is through investigations and perhaps his police contacts and links to super teams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springald Jack Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Re: Is Crimefighting Ethical? To me this whole thread is in a way incoherent. Are we talking about: A a rationally explainable world like the one we live in or B a mythically explainable world like the setting of most superhero stories? In almost all B type worlds Individual Heroic Action is always better than Official Action, so crimefighting is necessity. And yes it's nice to have some justifications for why the world behaves like it does, but if you'll buy RADIATION GAVE ME SUPERPOWERS!, it seems weird to throw out I have to don the mask because that's what I have to do. Because I'm a Hero. of course I could be wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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