Dr. Anomaly Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Also in light of a recent thread, the Invulnerable Character can work in the comics, but it's rather hard to work with in game. Now, I have to add a bit of a personal aside here...a PC in a game I run is the next-best thing to invulnerable, and I haven't really had a problem dealing with it. Haven Walkur's character, Gamma Girl, has a 10/10 Always On force field and then a 3-slot multipower: 100 PD / 0 ED force field, 0 PD / 100 ED force field, 50 PD / 50 ED force field. So, at her peak, she's got a 110 resistant PD or ED. Now, force fields are all that Gamma Girl does, so with her, teamwork is a must. Granted, this is a Legion of Super-Heroes campaign I'm running her in, so it's a whole large team of "one trick ponys" but it's worked well so far. (I guess that's two "doesn't usually work well in game" bits in one: one-trick pony and invulnerable. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game I guess I'm probably in the minority in saying that plot device type powers can work, if properly moderated by the GM. For myself, I actively encourage players to take plot device powers and signature attacks, with enough limitations to keep their use risky and rare. I find it adds a nice Silver Age feeling to the game when your Human Torch tribute can let loose and knock himself out every once in a while with his super-pushed Nova Blast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Well' date=' this all depends on the opinion that these things, "work well," in the comics. I've always been more of the, "What the hell were they thinking?" camp myself. I think, at least for the orginal examples given, that such events are merely the sign that the comic should have been dropped a [i']long[/i] time ago in favor of something new on which to hone the imagination. Well, I don't think they're all that great either, even when they take place in the comics. It's just that so many people seem to like them, to consider them a comfortable part of the genre, and that wasn't what I wanted to discuss originally. But the thread may get to the point where we ask, "Why do some/many people want to emulate these events in the game? Why do some/many people like these genre cliches?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Love affairs between team members:Another staple of the genre that usually results in either bad roleplaying as neither player behaves in character or disruption of actual gaming while the players are trying to get lucky vicariously through their charcters. The results almost never have a positive game effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Love affairs between team members:Another staple of the genre that usually results in either bad roleplaying as neither player behaves in character or disruption of actual gaming while the players are trying to get lucky vicariously through their charcters. The results almost never have a positive game effect. While this is generally true, I've had married and dating couples in my groups who did a very good jobs with soap opera material. It is a case where the players make a huge difference. I wouldn't want to try it in a group where the players didn't have a high degree of trust in and respect for one-another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Love affairs between team members:Another staple of the genre that usually results in either bad roleplaying as neither player behaves in character or disruption of actual gaming while the players are trying to get lucky vicariously through their charcters. The results almost never have a positive game effect. True. True. Rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Regarding the disparate power levels of characters in team comics, Theron Bretz wrote a thoughtful and practical article in Digital Hero #3, "Pointless Champions," on how to make this function in a game format. There's a substantial free sample from the article here on the website: http://www.herogames.com/digitalHero/Samples/dh03pointlesschampions.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Cool article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Regarding the disparate power levels of characters in team comics' date=' Theron Bretz wrote a thoughtful and practical article in [i']Digital Hero[/i] #3, "Pointless Champions," on how to make this function in a game format. There's a substantial free sample from the article here on the website: http://www.herogames.com/digitalHero/Samples/dh03pointlesschampions.htm Heh. This line could be useful in another debate... Character points are a holdover from the hobby's wargaming roots. They carry with them a presumption of a competitive or adversarial relationship among the players and Gamemaster; the only way to make things "fair" is to give everyone equal resources. The balance created is, at best, imperfect and at worst, illusory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkenfresh Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Politics can be a bit tough to emulate in a game. It's too complicated for most players and then they can easily mess up anything you might plan. Person A bribing Person B to spy on Person C who acts different knowing he's being spied on all so he can be the next council leader, etc. Oops, a player just killed Person AAB's nephew and messed it all up. World threatening story-lines are also tough. What happens if the players fail? Game over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game True, it shouldn't be forced. At the same time, being secretive for strictly dramatic reasons can be a character's stylistic choice. I've had PCs keep secrets from other PCs simply to surprise/impress people later on. To good effect, I should add. Or more commonly, they wait until the whole group is together to spill the beans, so they don't have to repeat themselves. Which is reasonably a part of most genres. Personally I get a kick out of secret player agendas, if I know they'll eventually pay off for everybody. I try to take the hint from NPCs, as well. For PCs keeping secrets, depends on my character how they will react. Generally poorly, unless there was a good in game reason, and generally surprising/impressing me isn't one. My general in-character reaction to that is to stop trusting the PC that puts my character's life at risk to make themselves seem "cooler". But it depends on the situation, as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Heh. This line could be useful in another debate... Agreed. That line is useful in many rules debates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Love affairs between team members:Another staple of the genre that usually results in either bad roleplaying as neither player behaves in character or disruption of actual gaming while the players are trying to get lucky vicariously through their charcters. The results almost never have a positive game effect. Funny you bring that up...I am going to be finding out first hand if that can be played out with a positive outcome or not. Last Saturday, Dr. Anomaly had a bombshell dropped on him...another team member is in love with him, and has been for some time...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Difficult Mysteries "The eyes of Hercules Poirot miss nothing" - H.Poirot "I am glad of all details, whether they seem to you to be relevant or not." - S. Holmes Player characters need a giant neon balloon the size of Everest with the flashing word "CLUE" painted on the side. Keith "really." Curtis Edited for egregious typos. Posted in a hurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Difficult Mysteries "The eyes of Hercules Poirot miss nothing" - H.Poirot "I am glad of all details, whether they seem to you to be relevant or not." - S. Holmes Player characters need a giant neone baloon the size of everst with the flashing word "CLUE" painted on the side. Keith "really." Curtis Some GMs seem to love mysteries and puzzles, but don't seem to realize that the players are not the PCs, aren't actually there in the room, and don't see everything in context the way the PCs would, or every little detail. Too often, the GM seems to forget that the players aren't actually seeing the room in the way they are, or aren't going to ask exactly the same "magical question" that seems so obvious to the GM when he's making things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Exactly so, which is why it doesn't work. Keith "OTOH, I really enjoyed the one game of Consulting Detective I played" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Funny you bring that up...I am going to be finding out first hand if that can be played out with a positive outcome or not. Last Saturday' date=' Dr. Anomaly had a bombshell dropped on him...another team member is in love with him, and has been for some time...! [/quote'] It can be done, and be fun, as long as both players have the same expectations. Or lack thereof. There's a female PC in my pulp game that my character plays off of really well, and vice versa. I resisted playing up the romantic angle for awhile, mostly because I felt uncomfortable flirting with the player: a married woman who's husband was also at the table. But once we both got comfortable it became really funny. None of us (including her husband) take it seriously, so we're okay with it. Player characters need a giant neone baloon the size of everst with the flashing word "CLUE" painted on the side. Yeah, or just the opposite: they catch onto trivial details that are totally irrelevant, and refuse to let go of them no matter what you do. bigdamnhero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Yeah' date=' or just the opposite: they catch onto trivial details that are totally irrelevant, and refuse to let go of them no matter what you do. [/quote'] We had a player who did that constantly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game We had a player who did that constantly... Did your player insist that he was right and the GM mistaken? Or assume that all the NPCs are illogical or stupid because they didn't fit into his preconceived notions of their motivations and actions? Until you just wanted to stand up and throw your dice at him? Did he? Keith "um... no reason. Just asking. I'm not bitter." Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Did your player insist that he was right and the GM mistaken? Or assume that all the NPCs are illogical or stupid because they didn't fit into his preconceived notions of their motivations and actions? Until you just wanted to stand up and throw your dice at him? Did he? Keith "um... no reason. Just asking. I'm not bitter." Curtis Not quite that bad...but as GMs in the various games over the years, we would use his misconceptions against him for as long as possible...or even worse, we'd silently say to ourselves "Geez, I like his crazy idea of what the villains are plotting even better than what I had in mind, so this time he's "right" about it...MUHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!" He was already so sure of himself all the time that just doing that once in a great while was enough to string him along the other 90% of the time. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game It can be done' date=' and be fun, as long as both players have the same expectations. Or lack thereof. There's a female PC in my pulp game that my character plays off of really well, and vice versa. I resisted playing up the romantic angle for awhile, mostly because I felt uncomfortable flirting with the player: a married woman who's husband was also at the table. But once we both got comfortable it became really funny. None of us (including her husband) take it seriously, so we're okay with it. [/quote'] I've found that blue-booking (as described by Aaron Allston in Strike Force) can be helpful in overcoming some of the discomfort in that situation. Things that feel awkward to speak out loud, even in character, are usually much less so when written down. Admittedly it does take some of the repartee out of the domain of the public group session, but it's the more intimate moments of relationships that are most difficult to roleplay, and those probably don't belong in the midst of the group anyway. I understand that some gamers are using e-mail exchanges to develop this part of PC interaction, or PC-NPC relationships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game I've found that blue-booking (as described by Aaron Allston in Strike Force) can be helpful in overcoming some of the discomfort in that situation. Things that feel awkward to speak out loud, even in character, are usually much less so when written down. Admittedly it does take some of the repartee out of the domain of the public group session, but it's the more intimate moments of relationships that are most difficult to roleplay, and those probably don't belong in the midst of the group anyway. I understand that some gamers are using e-mail exchanges to develop this part of PC interaction, or PC-NPC relationships. Hmm...oddly, I think I would find that even more awkward. Maybe because I wouldn't be able to see the other players' reactions and know that everyone is in on the joke. But then we never played out anything resembling an "intimate moment" -- the game was too tongue in cheek for that. In a more serious game, maybe I could see it. Interesting suggestion. bigdamnhero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game It can be done' date=' and be fun, as long as both players have the same expectations. Or lack thereof. There's a female PC in my pulp game that my character plays off of really well, and vice versa. I resisted playing up the romantic angle for awhile, mostly because I felt uncomfortable flirting with the player: a married woman who's husband was also at the table. But once we both got comfortable it became really funny. None of us (including her husband) take it seriously, so we're okay with it. [/quote'] The husband of the player whose character is in love with mine is my co-GM; we've all been friends for years, so I really don't think there's any danger of any of us 'taking it seriously' as in 'something involving players and not characters.' Plus, that same night, I found out my co-GM has known about this for a looooong time, and I only just now became aware of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Difficult Mysteries "The eyes of Hercules Poirot miss nothing" - H.Poirot "I am glad of all details, whether they seem to you to be relevant or not." - S. Holmes Player characters need a giant neon balloon the size of Everest with the flashing word "CLUE" painted on the side. Keith "really." Curtis There is another side to this. In most games, the GM doesn't describe every minute detail. When a minute detail is described, the players commonly latch onto it in the belief (mistaken or otherwise) that the GM would not, for example, mention the ash tray holds 7 cigarette butts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Re: Works Well in the Source Material, not so Well in the Game Love affairs between team members:Another staple of the genre that usually results in either bad roleplaying as neither player behaves in character or disruption of actual gaming while the players are trying to get lucky vicariously through their charcters. The results almost never have a positive game effect. I've seen it work. Not terribly often, but it can work. Of course, it's easy enough to simulate in-genre relationships if your model is along the lines of the Hank Pym/Wasp relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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