Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

[schir1964]

No, this isn't about Phone Girl and how quickly she can call up her sidekick on the Pink Phone.

 

When you purchase an Attack Power, the rules as is allow the character to decide how many dice to use each time the attack is used.

 

SFX: Rifle with standard ammo.

Current Rules: Character can choose to "Dial Down" the attack to 1d6 and thus controlling the maximum amount of damage can be done with that attack. Doesn't seem to make sense with the SFX.

 

Questions:

Should the attack have the Beam Limitation?

Should the SFX automatically prevent the character from "Dialing Down" the maximum damage?

Something else?

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Kristopher]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

IIRC, the Limitation "Beam" is appropriate for powers that cannot be "dialed-down".

 

On the other hand, one could rationalize that someone using a rifle and not using all the dice was aiming for nonvital locations, at least in a game that wasn't using hit locations.

[schir1964]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

IIRC, the Limitation "Beam" is appropriate for powers that cannot be "dialed-down".

 

On the other hand, one could rationalize that someone using a rifle and not using all the dice was aiming for nonvital locations, at least in a game that wasn't using hit locations.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work out in practice. Why you ask? (8^D)

 

What if you miss and don't hit the location, but still hit the target.

Since the damage dice are reduced you still don't take full damage.

 

As a GM I'm not going to allow a benefit without a balancing detriment. So if you barely miss the target location, you still hit the target. And there is also precedent for this type of mechanic also. Pulling a punch allows one to lessen the amount of damage delivered to the target, but if you roll the to hit exactly, the target takes full damage.

 

Granted the GM can decide to handle this on a case by case basis, but I was curious if anyone bothers to even consider using more consistent rules for this.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Kristopher]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Unfortunately, this doesn't work out in practice. Why you ask? (8^D)

 

What if you miss and don't hit the location, but still hit the target.

Since the damage dice are reduced you still don't take full damage.

 

As a GM I'm not going to allow a benefit without a balancing detriment. So if you barely miss the target location, you still hit the target. And there is also precedent for this type of mechanic also. Pulling a punch allows one to lessen the amount of damage delivered to the target, but if you roll the to hit exactly, the target takes full damage.

 

Granted the GM can decide to handle this on a case by case basis, but I was curious if anyone bothers to even consider using more consistent rules for this.

 

 

I wasn't suggesting literally trying to target the hit locations, just rationalizing that the character was aiming for something less vital when he was dropping damage dice. It was just a random thought I had while reading your question.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Perhaps it could be symbolized to the character manually loading in a special, less leathal round. Like a Glazer Safety round...... or something. Although those things are wicked at close range.

 

Make it cost a full phase to load in this single shot, and shoot. That's your disad.

[schir1964]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Perhaps it could be symbolized to the character manually loading in a special, less leathal round. Like a Glazer Safety round...... or something. Although those things are wicked at close range.

 

Make it cost a full phase to load in this single shot, and shoot. That's your disad.

Then that would be either two different powers, a multi-power with different slots, or focus based weapon with different types of clips.

 

So you aren't really talking about the same thing.

 

I'm talking the same ammo, same range, and so forth.

 

Would you enforce that the SFX would limit it, or simply say it needs the Beam Limitation.

 

Again, I'm just talking about those situations or SFX that would, by common sense, not allow the character to change the Possible Max Damage of the attack from one attack to the next?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Doesn't the "real weapon" Limitation cover this? The item not only needs regular maintenance to function properly, but things like the power of the attack are pre-set and can't be changed except by changing clips of ammo.

[Kristopher]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

"Real Weapon" is another good idea for this. It literally acts like a real weapon, and has a catch-all Limitation that adds all the things that entails into one entry.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

IME reducing damage voluntarily (other than by pulling a punch) is rare, so I do not think it warrants even a -1/4. The beam limitation and real weapon limtiations seem appropriate - the latter probably moreso: if you know what you are doing it IS possible to bounce rifle bullets under cars....

 

Assuming it is not worth a lim then it could be recorded as -0 (cannot reduce damage without major effort - emptying some powder from the case), so i suppose it could also be considered sfx.

 

Of course you should not be able to push a rifle bullet's damage either, and theat definitely IS worth a limitation, so maybe -1/4: cannot reduce damage voluntarily or increase it by pushing.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Then that would be either two different powers, a multi-power with different slots, or focus based weapon with different types of clips.

 

So you aren't really talking about the same thing.

 

I'm talking the same ammo, same range, and so forth.

 

Would you enforce that the SFX would limit it, or simply say it needs the Beam Limitation.

 

Again, I'm just talking about those situations or SFX that would, by common sense, not allow the character to change the Possible Max Damage of the attack from one attack to the next?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Well, logically, no, they really shouldn't be able to "pull a bullet."

 

However, I was just throwing out an idea. To me, the bullet is just a SFX. So, the swapping in of a single round is a decent SFX explanation for "pulling a bullet."

 

So, yeah, I think that could work well enough. If they don't mind taking a full phase to do all of this. Maybe even a second one to actually fire...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

If the SFX Limit what the character can do with the power, or warrant that the character can gain a benefit than apply a Limitation or Advantage to the power to model it correctly.

 

In Sean's games people rarely tone down attacks - it's not limiting there. In games I play in I do it all the time... in fact I have a character with one attack power but multiple weapons (the character manifests weapons through willpower) - the weapon being "used" (the one you see in their hand pointed at you) has everything to do with what level of power the charcter is using.

 

So, if you believe you are actually Limiting a character by preventing them from toning down the dice in the attack it needs a Limitation to properly model the SFX you have in mind.

 

Beam is a good one. Real Weapon might even be a better one - though I wasn't aware of Real Weapon preventing anyone from toning down the attack but I'm not near my books so I'll go with it.

[Zed-F]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Real Weapon is more about giving the GM a red flag saying 'enforce SFX on me, please'. There doesn't need to be anything in the rules, you're just taking a limitation to give the GM license to say 'no, you can't do that, because it's not supertech, and a real gun doesn't work that way.'

 

Personally I wouldn't have a problem putting Beam on a conventional tech gun. Beam != Cannot Be Bounced. Beam = must fire at full power, cannot spread, cannot blow down walls. That sounds like a bullet to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Personally I wouldn't have a problem putting Beam on a conventional tech gun. Beam != Cannot Be Bounced. Beam = must fire at full power' date=' cannot spread, cannot blow down walls. That sounds like a bullet to me.[/quote']

 

Ignoring "blow down walls", I think to be worth a limitation, the power must not only be incapable of firing at reduced damage, but also incapable of spreading. Otherwise, you simply decide the damage you want to inflict, and Spread for OCV to cover the remainder.

 

Unless END is a problem, why not reduce the chance of a miss if you want to do less damage anyway?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Real Weapon is more about giving the GM a red flag saying 'enforce SFX on me' date=' please'. There doesn't need to be anything in the rules, you're just taking a limitation to give the GM license to say 'no, you can't do that, because it's not supertech, and a real gun doesn't work that way.'[/quote']

While I don't disagree with this statement... Real Weapon can mean more than that - and less. If you put Real Weapon on a Supertech Gun I would allow all sorts of Supertech stuff - but you'll have to maintain it somehow, don't and you'll start to have problems.

 

While Real Weapon is opened ended its also a very small Limitation and one shouldn't let it get out of control of what can and can't be done.

 

As much as we rail on about how SFX shouldn't allow benefits without and appropriate Advantage we also need to look in the other direction and not let SFX be limited without an appropriate Limitation.

 

Likely Real Weapon and Beam could be applied to the same Power to model it correctly. Depending on the game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

As much as we rail on about how SFX shouldn't allow benefits without and appropriate Advantage we also need to look in the other direction and not let SFX be limited without an appropriate Limitation.

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ghost-angel again.

 

Ghost Angel makes an excellent point. Too often, we're far more willing to require payment of extra points foir extra utility than we are to allow a discount when an ability is restricted. "A limitation that does not limit is worth no Limitation" and "A disadvantage that does not disadvantage the character is not worth any points", of course. But it should be equally trite that "An advantage that provides no benefit is not an Advantage" and "An ability that confers no benefit carries no cost."

[Vondy]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

"Real Weapon" has become the "Transform" of the Limitation World.

 

On the other hand, its logical and would serve the purpose at hand.

 

Oh, and from my perspective, SFX is the final arbiter.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Oh' date=' and from my perspective, SFX is the final arbiter.[/quote']

Undoubtably.

 

But if the mechanics don't illustrate what the SFX are doing you haven't built the power correctly.

[actingkeith]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Doesn't the "real weapon" Limitation cover this?

 

Yes, yes it does.

 

As a matter of fact, the original poster's concerns are exactly why the 'real weapon' Limiation was added to the game.

[schir1964]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Yes, yes it does.

 

As a matter of fact, the original poster's concerns are exactly why the 'real weapon' Limiation was added to the game.

Actually, no it wasn't. (8^D)

 

I was just curious as to how many people enforce a proper build of SFX that would by common sense be restricted from being "Dialed Up/Down". Haven't had much exposure with the Real Weapon Limitation since the games I run are Superhero genre.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

I personally don't believe Real Weapon covers power scaling...

 

I could easily put Real Weapon on my sci-fi Laster Blasters and say they have a variable power setting. Real Weapon, to me, means it's an actual must be maintained properly weapon.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

In a Superheroic game I think the Beam Limitation covers this nicely, except doesn't that Limitation keep the attack from being bounced? Bouncing bullets is usually pretty appropriate to the Superhero genre. If I'm remembering that aspect of the Limitation correctly, I guess I'd drop that part of it (and either reduce the value of the Limitation by 1/4 or leave it the same).

 

In Heroic games, usually you don't even have to worry about it because guns are simply equipment. But if you are really worried about it I would probably apply both the Beam and Real Weapon Limitations.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

SFX: Rifle with standard ammo.

Current Rules: Character can choose to "Dial Down" the attack to 1d6 and thus controlling the maximum amount of damage can be done with that attack. Doesn't seem to make sense with the SFX.

 

Questions:

Should the attack have the Beam Limitation?

Should the SFX automatically prevent the character from "Dialing Down" the maximum damage?

Something else?

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

The Beam Limitation does exactly what you describe, and is specifically recomended for the SFX of bullets.

 

If you wanted a character to be able to attack for less damage with such an attack, I'd say use the Hit Location targeting rules, and aim for an arm or a leg. If you are not using the Hit Location rules or don't allow targeting attacks, and still want the option for the attack to volentarily do less damage, you can forgo the Beam Limitation. Alternatively, you can use a Power Skill: Sharpshooting to simulate the ability to do less damage on a shot, even with an attack (of appropriate SFX) that has the Beam Limitation.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

Alternatively' date=' you can use a Power Skill: Sharpshooting to simulate the ability to do less damage on a shot, even with an attack (of appropriate SFX) that has the Beam Limitation.[/quote']

Ooh. Nice. I like that. (You're too rep-worthy, DR.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

I looked up Real Weapon (5ERp480)

 

It is a -1/4 Limitation that does the following:

Weapon must be maintained or it will lose effectiveness (swords become dull losing DC, guns might jam or get OCV penalties as the sights go off, et cetera)

The weapon acts "real" meaning a bullet can't break down a door, it will just put a bullet sized whole in it, and a sword won't chop stones in half.

 

That's all that one does (attacks can still be scaled, et cetera)

 

Beam (5ERp113)

Attacks must always be at full power, may not be spread and (similar to Real Weapon) "punch a hole" in the target, instead of created an overall force, like a puncturing type attack.

 

Beam still allows for bouncing (though the text does say many things that take Beam also take No Knockback and Cannot Be Bounced, but they are not required).

 

It looks like a Gun could conveivably take both Beam and Real Weapon (for a total -1/2) to fully simulate the idea of a Firearm shooting bullets in Hero.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Power Dialing: SFX or Mechanic?

 

"Real Weapon" has become the "Transform" of the Limitation World.

 

 

Hah! Had to Rep this! So true!