Exploding Duplicates

[austenandrews]

So I had a weird character idea. She has Duplication. When a Duplicate is hit hard enough, it explodes and vanishes. How might you build that?

 

I suspect the "vanishing duplicates" part can be bought as some flavor of Easy + Ranged Recombination. The explosion is an attack with a Trigger. How about the "when hit hard enough" part? Is it as simple as "Duplicate recombines when hit hard enough, -X"? I confess Duplication has always intimidated me a bit with its particulars.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

I'd make it more of a Summon, myself. (I don't have my books with me or I'd try to give a complete build....)

[Sociotard]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

It wouldn't be a limitation. If they recombine when they get hit hard, that's a good thing, since duplicates are gone once they die. These are both just trigger.

[austenandrews]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

Can you buy a Trigger To Recombine?

 

I'm not sure it works out to an advantage. It's not that a duplicate vanishes at 0 BODY. More like it vanishes when Stunned, or if it takes 1 BODY of damage. So yes, while the idea is that punching a duplicate hard enough gets you an explosion in the face, it also removes that duplicate from play for that combat.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

I agree with Bob - I'd make this a Summon and avoid the issues of ranged recombination entirely. My Summoned creatures can explode and I'll get more back later.

[austenandrews]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying I should take Duplication, put the duplicates somewhere and then Summon them? That seems a tad convoluted.

 

If you mean use Summon instead of Duplication: "Characters may not use Summon to substitute for another Power" (p.223 5ER).

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

This would be cool in a Warcraft way to make Goblin Sappers.

 

TB

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

If you mean use Summon instead of Duplication: "Characters may not use Summon to substitute for another Power" (p.223 5ER).

 

I think your Exploding Duplicates are sufficiently differentiated from Duplication that this is not necessarily substituting for another power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying I should take Duplication, put the duplicates somewhere and then Summon them? That seems a tad convoluted.

 

If you mean use Summon instead of Duplication: "Characters may not use Summon to substitute for another Power" (p.223 5ER).

 

I think the idea is that the concept really seems more like summoning an unstable alternate self: it doesn't matter if it dies it is not actually part of you, so you are not duplicating duplicate (sic) you are modelling a rather different concept. The problem with ranged re-combination is this: what happens if a dupe is trapped inside a hardened force wall THEN gets hit hard enought to explode...can't recombine....where do they go? You could get de-duped very quickly....

[austenandrews]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

I think your Exploding Duplicates are sufficiently differentiated from Duplication that this is not necessarily substituting for another power.

Not as I see it. The character is a true duplicator. She acts in all ways like any other character with Duplication. The duplicates aren't "throwaways." It's just that her duplicates have a weird side effect when they recombine, and recombination can be forced on them.

 

My flippant thread title may be misleading. The duplicates don't actually explode; they vanish safely, leaving behind an explosion.

[austenandrews]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

I think the idea is that the concept really seems more like summoning an unstable alternate self: it doesn't matter if it dies it is not actually part of you' date=' so you are not duplicating duplicate (sic) you are modelling a rather different concept. The problem with ranged re-combination is this: what happens if a dupe is trapped inside a hardened force wall THEN gets hit hard enought to explode...can't recombine....where do they go? You could get de-duped very quickly....[/quote']

I don't grant Hardened quite the universal application as others might. It wouldn't stop this recombination, for instance.

 

Btw in case it seems otherwise, the purpose of the build isn't to get around duplicates dying. If the blow that forces recombination is deadly, the duplicate dies and simultaneously recombines, which would not be pleasant for the original. It sort of shakes out as an alternate path to Feedback.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

Not as I see it. The character is a true duplicator. She acts in all ways like any other character with Duplication. The duplicates aren't "throwaways." It's just that her duplicates have a weird side effect when they recombine, and recombination can be forced on them.

 

My flippant thread title may be misleading. The duplicates don't actually explode; they vanish safely, leaving behind an explosion.

 

Ah, I think I get it now. Here's what I'm thinking: each Duplicate gets a Power: EB, Explosion, Trigger (when Duplicate recombines), Personal Immunity, No Range. Each Duplicate also takes a Physical Limitation: Recombines When Takes X Amount Of Damage.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

Lord Liaden has a good solution - I'd go with it, that way the only thing you need to put on the Duplication Power itself is the Ranged Recombine so they can actually recombine when out in the field.

[actingkeith]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

For the most part, I like Liaden's solution as well. The thing I'd change (or spell out more concretely if this was how it was intended) is this:

 

Each Duplicate also takes a Physical Limitation: Recombines When Takes X Amount Of Damage.

I'd make it "Recombines when takes X BOD in a single... Phase/Segment/Attack" Whatever seems right to the reality of your desire. Single Attack is the most restrictive, Single Phase is the least...

 

Spelling it out this way makes it so that the Duplicates can actually be killed. The way Lord Liaden spells it out could be construed to make it so that Duplicates would never be killed... I guess you could spell it out that way if that was your aim.

 

Peace,

 

-k

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

Your parameters seem reasonable to me, actingkeith. I was just keeping the "X Amount Of Damage" very loose so that AA could define it as he sees fit.

[austenandrews]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

LL, I like your Disad route. I think I'll go that direction.

 

actingkeith, thanks for pointing out the Phase/Segment caveat. Otherwise I probably would have gone with a single attack, which is not really what I had in mind.

 

Thanks for your input, everyone!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

I don't grant Hardened quite the universal application as others might. It wouldn't stop this recombination, for instance.

 

Btw in case it seems otherwise, the purpose of the build isn't to get around duplicates dying. If the blow that forces recombination is deadly, the duplicate dies and simultaneously recombines, which would not be pleasant for the original. It sort of shakes out as an alternate path to Feedback.

 

 

I think it is admirable the amount of thought going into the idea: that is what these boards tend to be really good at: giving me the perspective I sometimes lack on a problem or build.

 

As to the ranged recombination, I think some things need to be able to stop it even if it is not hardened force walls, otherwise it becomes a potent advantage: DupeA can get back to DupeBase just by headbutting his cell wall hard enough, no matter what measures DupeKidnapper has in place to stop him. At very least distance is a bar to ranged recombination (unless you buy some sort of megascale transdimensional advantage for that bit). I think you would need to either define what happens if the duplicate is hit hard enough to explode but can't (for whatever reason) recombine, OR make sure it never happens in-game The easiest solution is simply to define the trigger more accurately for the explosion: Dupe takes damage AND recombines with original (as you don't really want the dupe to still be around when the explosion goes off - that might be the final straw). If they CAN'T recombine - for whatever reason - then they don't explode. You could even have the ranged recombination itself as the sole trigger for the explosion if that is the only way they can recombine at range, with the damage being the trigger for the recombination. The effect is more like an instinctive self protection, which leaves behind a Nightcrawler-like BAMF, only with a little more potency.

 

OK, thought it through a little more:

 

The ranged recombination trigger is: Takes X damage (X being an amount of STUN or BODY either absolute or relative to current health) in Y time (Y being a single hit, a single phase or whatever). Now on the face of it this would become the ONLY way you can ranged-recombine UNLESS you build a more expensive trigger you can redefine as 'hit or voluntary decision', with an automatic default of 'hit'. Too complicated: go with Lord Laiden's disadvantage.

 

The explosion trigger is: ranged recombination has been triggered by the damage in time trigger OR the activation of the physical limitation.

 

I can also see this character (assuming he is a hero) being unpopular with team mates: who is going to want to fight near one of the dupes?

 

It is JUST possible I might be overthinking this....

[Utech]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

Here's a little extra wrinkle...

 

What if the duplicates can recombine at range only when they take X amount of damage? The rest of the time they need to be right next to each other.

 

In other words, how might you buy the ability to recombine at range but not as a matter of choice? No Conscious Control only on the ability to recombine at range?

[Vondy]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

Not as I see it. The character is a true duplicator. She acts in all ways like any other character with Duplication. The duplicates aren't "throwaways." It's just that her duplicates have a weird side effect when they recombine, and recombination can be forced on them.

 

My flippant thread title may be misleading. The duplicates don't actually explode; they vanish safely, leaving behind an explosion.

 

I don't mean to be a smarty-pants, but why not define it as: forced recombination at range under circumstance X (-0). Personally, it sounds like an SFX that contains an advantage and disadvantage. I'd say they equal out and call it a day. Ifyou want to recombine at range at will (not just when circumstance X is met), then you should pay for the advantage. Sometimes our fancy constructs cause more problems than they were meant to solve.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Exploding Duplicates

 

Ah' date=' I think I get it now. Here's what I'm thinking: each Duplicate gets a Power: EB, Explosion, Trigger (when Duplicate recombines), Personal Immunity, No Range. Each Duplicate also takes a Physical Limitation: Recombines When Takes X Amount Of Damage.[/quote']

 

I'd go with "Accidental Change", instead of a Phys Limit, but otherwise the same.