Champions Worlds

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Well' date=' yes, but there are aliens in the mainstream CU, and space travel is in fact even more commonplace in the source genre than magical stuff is. Why not put out a METE or Champions in Space book? Or "The Alien World"?[/quote']

 

Perhaps nobody at DoJ wants to write one?

 

I suspect you'll see some of that in Silver Age Champions (it is much more of a Silver Age thing), but that is likely not to appear until about 2009 -- given that it is scheduled to be Darren's next project after Golden Age Champions and GAC is not likely to ready until late 2007.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

But what would a big book or books on the Strike Force universe really give us? The universe is not that different from the Champions Universe or any other typical supers universe. And the campaign advice from the orginal Strike Force book that accounted for a lot of the appeal of that book now appears in many other places.

 

Well, one of the exciting things that was left dangling at the end of the original Strike Force, was that the artificial restraints on technological development (i.e. the in-campaign rationale for all that comicbook "super-science" stuff not making its way out into general society) had been removed. Mankind was ready to start moving out into the stars, taking its place among the other galactic civilizations. Aaron's campaign has continued for almost twenty years of real-world time (which closely parallels game time in his campaign), so the progress along those lines is likely to have been quite substantial.

 

The very fact that all that time has gone by means there's likely to have been much evolution in the lives of all the original characters. For those of us who liked Strike Force, the Shadow Warriors and the rest of their lively neighbors, I think it would be a hoot to learn what they've been up to.

 

Then there are all the wonderful characters and groups that appeared in SF and other past Hero products which Mr. Allston has retained the rights to, which we'll only see more about when he publishes his new SF material: the Circle, the Blood, the Producer, Scoff, Yooso and the Shadow Clan, Overlord and his family and their Federation of Atlantia, distinctive hero teams like AEGIS and the Avant Guard, and so on.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Basically' date=' [i']The Mystic World[/i] and The Ultimate Mystic were commissioned to be a reworking of Dean's The Ultimate Super-Mage. Then The Mystic World came in bigger than expected so most of the villains were pulled out to create Arcane Adversaries.

 

By my understanding of the situation, that's true. Doesn't affect the point I was making, but it's true.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Yes' date=' perhaps we can conclude that. I have to wonder how much of that is self-fulfilling prophecy, though. Looking back on the release schedule for past years, it seems to me that Hero Games never really intended to flesh out either the Turakian and Valdorian Ages when they were published, at least for the foreseeable future. Would these settings have generated more interest among fans if, for example, the upcoming city sourcebook for TA had come out shortly after the main setting book? The fact that it didn't appears to be part of HG's publishing plan, but if so it's one that I'm not sure I agree with.[/quote']

 

Aren't the two Grimoires, FH Battlegrounds, and Monsters, Minions, and Marauders all support for the Turakian Age? I believe MMM and the first Grimoire both came out around the same time as TA. But I believe none of those sold well enough to justify much more support. I think that's why Valdorian Age was announced without support books -- poor sales for the TA material didn't make sales of VA support material look promising.

 

To be honest, if you are looking for DoJ to cater to the "I don't have a creative bone in my entire body" type of GM, then I think you're out of luck.

 

Rod

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

The various Fantasy and Star Hero "worlds" explore different genres of fantasy and sci-fi. The Champions worlds you suggest here are all one note variations of a typical iron age superhero universe. Apples and oranges.

My examples weren't meant to be all-inclusive. I was just giving examples of campaigns I've played in over the years. For example, Necessary Evil would have made a very interesting Champions sourcebook.

 

Champions campaigns can have a very distinctive flavor just as fantasy campaigns can. The Authority isn't the same as the X-Men, which isn't the same as JLA, which isn't even the same as Astro City.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

This is pretty much the reason I was suggesting an advanced redux of C3D. And what bigdamnhero says is true' date=' too: if you don't like some aspect of the CU as printed, it's not all that hard to change.[/quote']

By that same token if I don't like some aspects of the Turakian Age it's very easy to change that too, and yet Fantasy got the Valdorian Age and the upcoming Tuala Morn Age. The point is not how easy it is to change something but whether you should need to.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

My examples weren't meant to be all-inclusive. I was just giving examples of campaigns I've played in over the years. For example, Necessary Evil would have made a very interesting Champions sourcebook.

 

Champions campaigns can have a very distinctive flavor just as fantasy campaigns can. The Authority isn't the same as the X-Men, which isn't the same as JLA, which isn't even the same as Astro City.

 

But how much material do you really need from a game company to run such a campaign?

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

You know' date=' thinking about this issue there does seem to be a bit of inconsistency in Hero Games's world-support policy. On the one hand they've said that they don't want to devote resources to supporting more than one superhero world; whether one agrees with that policy or not, the rationale for it is reasonable. OTOH Hero Games has put out two very different campaign settings for the [i']Star HERO[/i] and Fantasy HERO game lines, and FH is scheduled for at least one more in the future. Now, you could argue that all these settings are part of the Hero meta-universe, and so not really separate "worlds" as such; but each is so unique that it amounts to much the same thing.

 

Another thing that seems rather inconsistent is the great number of supplements that HG has put out detailing particular elements of the Champions setting - villain books, organization books, city/region books, adventures - while not giving the same attention to the other game line settings. Are we to conclude that what sells for supers wouldn't sell for fantasy? Given the large number of books sold that detail discreet sections of fantasy worlds by other game companies, that seems counter-intuitive.

I don't think you need to devote any additional resources. I think new Champions worlds can be handled the same way new Fantasy or Star Hero worlds are handled: Put out a detailed single book and see if it sells. At one time there was this book called Dark Champions which sold well enough to spawn 6 follow-up books.

 

I'm not saying you need to put out 5 Authority Champions books. I'm just saying there's no real reason to adhere to a meta-verse policy if there's money to be made from other styles of Champions worlds. It just seems Champions should get the same consideration that Fantasy and Star Hero get.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

But how much material do you really need from a game company to run such a campaign?

I think you need one fairly-detailed 196 page book. If there's a demand for the world then follow it up with an enemies book. If there's still a big demand then start filling in the pieces. This was their marketing for all their other lines. It would seem reasonable to attempt it with their most popular genre as well.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Champions campaigns can have a very distinctive flavor just as fantasy campaigns can. The Authority isn't the same as the X-Men, which isn't the same as JLA, which isn't even the same as Astro City.

 

You've carefully selected titles from different worlds for your examples, but I could just as easily note that X-Men is different than Fantastic Four and both are different than Deadpool or Sentry. Or that JLA is different than Batman and both are different than Swamp Thing or Green Lantern.

 

Having one world doesn't restrict you to one flavor of story. Any of these titles could be replicated in the CU with minimal alteration.

 

EDIT: I'd say the Authority is the only title in this post that posits a world significantly different from the CU.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Having one world doesn't restrict you to one flavor of story. Any of these titles could be replicated in the CU with minimal alteration.

And that holds just as true for Fantasy. I can easily have Valdorian magic in a nation of the Turakian Age or the celtic Tuala Morn isles are part of it as well [it worked that way for the Forgotten Realms], and yet Fantasy gets 3 settings and Supers get 1. It's still just a flavor thing.

 

And the titles were selected because they're popular and have fan followings. Not for any other reason.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Aren't the two Grimoires' date=' FH Battlegrounds, and Monsters, Minions, and Marauders all support for the Turakian Age? I believe MMM and the first Grimoire both came out around the same time as TA. But I believe none of those sold well enough to justify much more support. I think that's why Valdorian Age was announced without support books -- poor sales for the TA material didn't make sales of VA support material look promising. [/quote']

 

I do see your point, but I'm not sure the situations are really comparable. MMM and the first Fantasy HERO Grimoire are compatible with the Turakian Age setting, but not really tied to it; in fact most of the marketing for the books at the time made them sound more like "generic" fantasy game sourcebooks. In that regard they're more like the UNTIL Superpowers Database or the HERO System Bestiary: definitely usable with the default setting, but not really an expansion of the unique parts of it.

 

OTOH the Champions genre book was quickly followed by Champions Universe; Conquerors, Killers And Crooks, which while generally useful features lots of villains with strong ties to the default CU; and Millennium City.

 

 

To be honest, if you are looking for DoJ to cater to the "I don't have a creative bone in my entire body" type of GM, then I think you're out of luck.

 

Rod

 

I would never expect such limited imagination of any HERO GM. OTOH DoJ is already catering to the "I don't want to do all the world-creating and number-crunching" GM, with quite a few books full of prebuilt stuff.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

I think you need one fairly-detailed 196 page book. If there's a demand for the world then follow it up with an enemies book. If there's still a big demand then start filling in the pieces. This was their marketing for all their other lines. It would seem reasonable to attempt it with their most popular genre as well.

 

You're kidding, right? The difference between most of those different superhero campaigns you listed is merely in tone and what part of the universe they emphasize. For the X-Men, it's the Mutant world. For the JLA, it's generally threats against the world. For Astro City, the emphasis is on the normals and how they see supers. For the Authority, it more of a what-if as in "what if a superhero team took matters in their own hands". But in general, they are all just riffs on the standard superhero universe:

• Superpowers come from multiple sources and can be triggered in many different ways.
  
• Magic and tech can do almost anything
  
• Supers dress in costumes and fight crime (or at least each other).

Sure, there are story differences. A good JLA story might make a lousy X-Men story, for example. But again, that, like tone, is more the province of the GM.

 

I just don't see why you would need a huge book for just running variations on a theme. I think there's probably enough info in the Champions genre book to help a GM with the adjustments in tone and story needed.

 

In Fantasy, however, different "worlds" often have much different rules for magic and creature types and thus may require more individualization.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Sounds like a decent concept. Now type it up and present it to DoJ for concideration.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

I would never expect such limited imagination of any HERO GM. OTOH DoJ is already catering to the "I don't want to do all the world-creating and number-crunching" GM' date=' with quite a few books full of prebuilt stuff.[/quote']

 

You know I always viewed those as just more tools for building your campaign with. Or in the case of settings, starting places for you to adjust or add to as you see fit.

 

Or mix and match. If you'd like to make the Swords and Sorcery feel of the Valdorian Age a part of the Turakian Age, then stick the continent from VA into the TA world.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

You're kidding, right? The difference between most of those different superhero campaigns you listed is merely in tone and what part of the universe they emphasize. For the X-Men, it's the Mutant world. For the JLA, it's generally threats against the world. For Astro City, the emphasis is on the normals and how they see supers. For the Authority, it more of a what-if as in "what if a superhero team took matters in their own hands". But in general, they are all just riffs on the standard superhero universe:

• Superpowers come from multiple sources and can be triggered in many different ways.
  
• Magic and tech can do almost anything
  
• Supers dress in costumes and fight crime (or at least each other).

Sure, there are story differences. A good JLA story might make a lousy X-Men story, for example. But again, that, like tone, is more the province of the GM.

 

I just don't see why you would need a huge book for just running variations on a theme. I think there's probably enough info in the Champions genre book to help a GM with the adjustments in tone and story needed.

 

In Fantasy, however, different "worlds" often have much different rules for magic and creature types and thus may require more individualization.

Everything is just tone. Conan fits just as easily into TA as he does VA if you want to limit yourself to one small part of the TA world. You can have Alien Wars as part of the Terran Empire. It's all just tone. That's what game worlds do: they give you different tones to play in.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Everything is just tone. Conan fits just as easily into TA as he does VA if you want to limit yourself to one small part of the TA world. You can have Alien Wars as part of the Terran Empire. It's all just tone. That's what game worlds do: they give you different tones to play in.

 

I guess I always just looked at game worlds as neutral resources and the players and the GM set the tone.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

By that same token if I don't like some aspects of the Turakian Age it's very easy to change that too' date=' and yet Fantasy got the Valdorian Age and the upcoming Tuala Morn Age. The point is not how easy it is to change something but whether you should need to.[/quote']Well, that's a somewhat different point. If we want different eras of the Champions world we can just wait for whatever's done with the Golden and Silver Age books.

 

Plus, don't expect too much from any era books other than modern; the FH line is going to concentrate on Turakian, just as the SH line is going to concentrate on Terran Empire.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Plus' date=' don't expect too much from any era books other than modern; the FH line is going to concentrate on Turakian, just as the SH line is going to concentrate on Terran Empire.[/quote']

 

In both those cases I'm inclined to think that that would be the proper course, based on the examples of settings from other companies. I'm just wondering whether those lines would have sold better if more setting-specific support had come out early on.

 

I suppose there's no sense getting worked up over it; it's a moot point now.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Personally, I've never liked the meta-setting. I find it kind of constraining at times and just doesn't mesh for me. I'll agree with Mitchell about the need of more superhero settings ... though I'm sure that some of the sub-genre books may cover some of the concepts involved with them. That being said, I'd rather see the sub-genre books cover more on the conventions and rules of the genre rather than just be books on stats and status of the CU at that point. For example:

Instead of Champions 3000, I would've liked to seen a book called Future Champions, covering ideas like Batman Beyond, Days of Future Past and Legion of Superheroes. The book could be split into a few chapters and cover each type of future, with an appendix on capsule futures. Each chapter would be more like an Ultimate book, but cover the genre at hand, explaining technology, key gadgets (flight rings, Omega Minutemen, etc), a section on using that particular idea with the CU and possibly some key characters from the CU or other worlds. Like, for example, what events lead to a "Days of Future Past" event and maybe see how a few of the surviving heroes survived to today. In addition to that, I'd love to see PDF support for the book, perhaps offering additional characters or gadgets, or even chapter specific adventures.

In all honesty, there are only two main worlds I'd like to see for Champions: A Champions Universe that embraces its history and the Strikeforce Universe. I would then break each of them down in the sub-genre books where needed. Show some characters and ideas for a Golden Age CU and SFU game, as well as having heavy support to the person running their own world, that way it helps everyone.

[OddHat]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Nah! Hero Elseworlds man. No reason that can't do it' date=' just a matter of do they feel it's worth dedicating the resources to do so. My guess is that if they had a campaign setting concept that was potentially a really strong seller but could not be shoe-horned into their meta setting, they'd do it anyway - but find a way to denote that it was not a part of the official metasetting.[/quote']

 

Which is just what they did with Hudson City, and more power to Steve for that choice.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Which is just what they did with Hudson City' date=' and more power to Steve for that choice.[/quote']

I don't have HC, so correct me if I'm wrong. (Like anyone here's ever been shy about THAT! ) But isn't the premise of Hudson City that it exists in the regular CU, but that most of the true super-powered heroes & villains stay away from the city for reasons that aren't entirely clear?

[OddHat]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

I don't have HC' date=' so correct me if I'm wrong. (Like anyone here's ever been shy about THAT! ) But isn't the premise of Hudson City that it exists in the regular CU, but that most of the true super-powered heroes & villains stay away from the city for reasons that aren't entirely clear?[/quote']

 

5thEd Hudson City exists in a world without superpowers or magic. There are some suggestions included for DC:TAS campaigns in Hudson City, but it's not part of the main CU continuity.

 

Which was, imo, the right call. Having a city mysteriously avoided by Supers never appealed to me. Better to just drop trying to work that city into the timeline.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

5thEd Hudson City exists in a world without superpowers or magic. There are some suggestions included for DC:TAS campaigns in Hudson City, but it's not part of the main CU continuity.

 

Which was, imo, the right call. Having a city mysteriously avoided by Supers never appealed to me. Better to just drop trying to work that city into the timeline.

Sorry but I must disagree here. Hudson City is part of the CU. It's even discussed in Champions Universe. Bigdamnhero's take is essentially correct.

[OddHat]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Sorry but I must disagree here. Hudson City is part of the CU. It's even discussed in Champions Universe. Bigdamnhero's take is essentially correct.

 

Hudson City, Page 6, under the heading "Hey, where are all the Superheroes?"

 

There are no Superheroes in Hudson City. There is no magic. There are no official crossovers. There is no metagame explanation for this. It is a separate setting. Some names are the same, but that is as far as it goes.