Champions Worlds

[MitchellS]

Champions is the backbone of the Hero System and yet when I look at Hero’s meta-verse what do I see… over a dozen different fantasy world settings, half a dozen different science fiction world settings, and only two Champions world setting: Modern Champions Universe and Galactic Champions Universe [i’ll get back to GCU later].

 

How is it that the most popular genre [and we can still assume Champions is the most popular genre due to the fact that it still gets the most books per year] is limited to one vanilla world when the less popular genres get multitudes? Why adamantly adhere to the meta-verse concept when there are dozens of Champions books people would buy just to have a different flavor of Champions?

 

Where is the Authority-like Champions book letting you play high-powered heroes in a grim world watched over by a less then honorable UNTIL? Where is the Champions X book about a superhero world where the heroes are hunted by a corrupt government because they are considered non-human? Where is the New Millennium world where heroes can play modern characters but with a slightly different tint? Where are all the Champions worlds? Why are we limited to 1 Champions world but so many Fantasy and Star Hero worlds?

 

If resources are going to be spent why not spend them on environments which have a better chance of giving a bigger ROI? It takes the same amount of man-hours, art, and publishing costs to make Authority-like Champions as it does Mexican wrestling Hero. Which one do you think has a better chance of selling? There’s already a Champions audience here. Why isn’t it being catered to in the same way the Fantasy and Star Hero audiences are?

 

Now let’s go back to Galactic Champions. This is the only other attempt DOJ has made at a superhero setting. But when I look at GC what do I see? 150 page book which contains 90 pages of characters, 10 pages on playing high-powered games, 20 pages on the genre itself, 15 pages on the world itself, 3 pages of GM’s Vault, 4 pages of terms, and the rest blank, ad, art, or index. Shouldn’t the book have 90 pages of world information rather then 15? How much can we learn about the Galactic Champions Universe from 15 pages? Wouldn’t it have been better to give us 15 pages of characters, and then if the demand is there create a GC enemies book? But instead we have 90 pages of characters for a world that isn’t defined enough to play in.

 

There are a lot of Champions players and we don’t all come in the same “love vanilla Champions Universe†package [i happen to like the CU but I understand that some people prefer other superhero styles]. We’ll buy alternate world Champions books just in the hopes that it might be a better fit for our style of Champions; and even if it’s not we’ll buy them just to have alternate world ideas for future campaigns.

 

Why adhere to the meta-verse when there is so much more Champions other-world material we’d be willing to buy? If DOJ is willing to sample other environments for the other genres why not for Champions?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Some valid points.

 

I think the different city books are somewhat of an attempt at this - Millenium City for more four-color, Hudson City for grittier, Vibora Bay for more mystic-themed, as I understand them.

 

But it would be interesting to see several completely different "Champions" universes.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Maybe what we need is an advanced redux of "Champions in 3-D."

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Multiverse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_universes

 

Champions Earth 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, & 5th Editions

 

Champions Universe Update???

 

Strike Force Earth 2

 

Silver Age Sentinels Earth

 

Mutants & Masterminds Earth

 

Marvel Earth

 

Ultimate Marvel Earth

 

DC Universe Earth

 

Inifnite Earths

 

 

 

Cheers

 

QM

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Maybe what we need is an advanced redux of "Champions in 3-D."

Champions 3-D is too limited in scope. Gamers need real worlds to play in not 15 page do-it-yourself worlds. The point of such Champions world books are so do you don't need to do all the work yourself. Why be so willing to synopsize Champions in a 3-d product but not the other genres? The superhero genre deserves interesting worlds just like Fantasy and Star Hero do, IMO [and there's a bigger potential market for them].

[megaplayboy]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

well, there is Dark Champions, which is fully capable of supporting vigilante subgenre superheroing.

Golden Age Champs, and Silver Age Champs will come out eventually. Plus Galactic Champs--that's 4 sub-genres in addition to the vanilla CU.

I would like to see an Iron Age Champions book, though it's unclear to me where and when it'd fit in with the Meta-verse concept(since the CU seems equivalent to Bronze Age in many ways).

 

I do think any subgenre books should either have a couple of additional support books released with them, or they should be much bigger in terms of page count, if they're going to be considered "standalone" subgenre books.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

 

Where is the Authority-like Champions book letting you play high-powered heroes in a grim world watched over by a less then honorable UNTIL? Where is the Champions X book about a superhero world where the heroes are hunted by a corrupt government because they are considered non-human? Where is the New Millennium world where heroes can play modern characters but with a slightly different tint? Where are all the Champions worlds? Why are we limited to 1 Champions world but so many Fantasy and Star Hero worlds?

 

 

The various Fantasy and Star Hero "worlds" explore different genres of fantasy and sci-fi. The Champions worlds you suggest here are all one note variations of a typical iron age superhero universe. Apples and oranges.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Where is the Authority-like Champions book letting you play high-powered heroes in a grim world watched over by a less then honorable UNTIL? Where is the Champions X book about a superhero world where the heroes are hunted by a corrupt government because they are considered non-human? Where is the New Millennium world where heroes can play modern characters but with a slightly different tint? Where are all the Champions worlds? Why are we limited to 1 Champions world but so many Fantasy and Star Hero worlds?

Actually, this may be a case where CU's "vanilla-ness" is an asset: it'd be very easy to adapt CU to fit any of those settings. I'm not saying you don't have a point (and I have to agree that GCU was kinda weak). But one of the advantages of aiming for the center of mass is that it's easy to adjust fire from there.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

I would like to see an Iron Age Champions book' date=' though it's unclear to me where and when it'd fit in with the Meta-verse concept...[/quote']

Actually, that raises another interesting point. By tying themselves to an official and fairly-inclusive meta-history, DOJ has somewhat limited its ability to publish settings that don't fit into that meta-history. No alternate histories where the Nazis won WWII, or modern settings where superheroes don't exist, or SH settings that don't include the established alien races.

 

Meta-histories can be an asset in many ways, but they can also be a limitation.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Actually, that raises another interesting point. By tying themselves to an official and fairly-inclusive meta-history, DOJ has somewhat limited its ability to publish settings that don't fit into that meta-history. No alternate histories where the Nazis won WWII, or modern settings where superheroes don't exist, or SH settings that don't include the established alien races.

 

Meta-histories can be an asset in many ways, but they can also be a limitation.

 

Nah! Hero Elseworlds man. No reason that can't do it, just a matter of do they feel it's worth dedicating the resources to do so. My guess is that if they had a campaign setting concept that was potentially a really strong seller but could not be shoe-horned into their meta setting, they'd do it anyway - but find a way to denote that it was not a part of the official metasetting.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Champions 3-D is too limited in scope. Gamers need real worlds to play in not 15 page do-it-yourself worlds. The point of such Champions world books are so do you don't need to do all the work yourself. Why be so willing to synopsize Champions in a 3-d product but not the other genres? The superhero genre deserves interesting worlds just like Fantasy and Star Hero do' date=' IMO [and there's a bigger potential market for them'].

This is pretty much the reason I was suggesting an advanced redux of C3D. And what bigdamnhero says is true, too: if you don't like some aspect of the CU as printed, it's not all that hard to change.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Actually, that raises another interesting point. By tying themselves to an official and fairly-inclusive meta-history, DOJ has somewhat limited its ability to publish settings that don't fit into that meta-history. No alternate histories where the Nazis won WWII, or modern settings where superheroes don't exist, or SH settings that don't include the established alien races.

 

Meta-histories can be an asset in many ways, but they can also be a limitation.

 

They were planning on publishing Psychic Wars until Allen left, and that was completely outside the meta-setting. It's only a limit if they consciously decide to publish only within the meta-setting, and I don't think they've quite done that.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Well, you could either have a big Champs 3-D redux with 4 worlds and 64 pages per setting, or a series of "Alternative Universe" sourcebooks, beginning with, oh, I don't know, Strikeforce.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

You know, thinking about this issue there does seem to be a bit of inconsistency in Hero Games's world-support policy. On the one hand they've said that they don't want to devote resources to supporting more than one superhero world; whether one agrees with that policy or not, the rationale for it is reasonable. OTOH Hero Games has put out two very different campaign settings for the Star HERO and Fantasy HERO game lines, and FH is scheduled for at least one more in the future. Now, you could argue that all these settings are part of the Hero meta-universe, and so not really separate "worlds" as such; but each is so unique that it amounts to much the same thing.

 

Another thing that seems rather inconsistent is the great number of supplements that HG has put out detailing particular elements of the Champions setting - villain books, organization books, city/region books, adventures - while not giving the same attention to the other game line settings. Are we to conclude that what sells for supers wouldn't sell for fantasy? Given the large number of books sold that detail discreet sections of fantasy worlds by other game companies, that seems counter-intuitive.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Well, we got: a DEMON sourcebook, Arcane Adversaries, Vibora Bay(a more mystic oriented city), Ultimate Mystic and The Mystic World--effectively 5 books to assist in running a magical supers sub-genre game.

thus far, the number of books for supers in space is...um...1 or 2? Am I forgetting a product?

[John Desmarais]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

You know' date=' thinking about this issue there does seem to be a bit of inconsistency in Hero Games's world-support policy. On the one hand they've said that they don't want to devote resources to supporting more than one superhero world; whether one agrees with that policy or not, the rationale for it is reasonable. OTOH Hero Games has put out two very different campaign settings for the [i']Star HERO[/i] and Fantasy HERO game lines, and FH is scheduled for at least one more in the future. Now, you could argue that all these settings are part of the Hero meta-universe, and so not really separate "worlds" as such; but each is so unique that it amounts to much the same thing.

 

The time separation of these settings allows them to fit them into their meta setting. What wouldn't fit would be something like a "Germany wins WWII" setting as it would overlap with other settings and/or sub-settings.

 

Another thing that seems rather inconsistent is the great number of supplements that HG has put out detailing particular elements of the Champions setting - villain books, organization books, city/region books, adventures - while not giving the same attention to the other game line settings. Are we to conclude that what sells for supers wouldn't sell for fantasy?

 

We can conclude that Hero Games doesn't think that what sells for Champions would sell for Fantasy Hero (or at least not in the same quantity). Since their the ones that actually know how many copies of, say, Champions Universe and Valdorian Age they've sold; they're probably in the best position to know what of these two settings will support the greatest number of additional detailing books.

 

Given the large number of books sold that detail discreet sections of fantasy worlds by other game companies, that seems counter-intuitive.

 

Hero has the resources the publish about a dozen books a year. Offering up the same level of detail for their other settings as they do for the Champions Universe would require (for now at least) producing fewer Champions books. That would lead to even more "I want more Champions books" posts from MitchellS.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Well' date=' you could either have a big Champs 3-D redux with 4 worlds and 64 pages per setting, or a series of "Alternative Universe" sourcebooks, beginning with, oh, I don't know, Strikeforce.[/quote']

 

Strike Force is really just waiting for editing, and the resources to publish it. Aaron Allston reportedly has tons of stuff already written for it. Sadly, he'll probably have to find the wherewithal to publish it himself, as DoJ has stated they're unwilling to do so for financial reasons.

 

Then again, other publishers have somewhat picked up the slack in giving us those alternate HERO System supers worlds. We already have The Kandris Seal for a well-developed supermage campaign, and Omlevex for a unique Silver Age-flavored world. Hopefully we won't have to wait longer for Scott Bennie's innovative Gestalt supers world to hit the presses. By all accounts Scott has it just about written, and just needs to make the arrangements and get the sheckels together to publish it. All of the above are of very good quality.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Well, we got: a DEMON sourcebook, Arcane Adversaries, Vibora Bay(a more mystic oriented city), Ultimate Mystic and The Mystic World--effectively 5 books to assist in running a magical supers sub-genre game.

thus far, the number of books for supers in space is...um...1 or 2? Am I forgetting a product?

 

These decisions are all driven by past sales figures. Apparently, the modern-mystic-super books sold better than Galactic Champions. (I would easily believe that Mystic World outsold Galactic Champions).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Hero has the resources the publish about a dozen books a year. Offering up the same level of detail for their other settings as they do for the Champions Universe would require (for now at least) producing fewer Champions books. That would lead to even more "I want more Champions books" posts from MitchellS.

 

Okay, you've got me there.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Nah! Hero Elseworlds man. No reason that can't do it' date=' just a matter of do they feel it's worth dedicating the resources to do so.[/quote']

Sure, no reason why they couldn't do it. Just an observation that so far they have chosen not to do so, and that decision has some implications.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

These decisions are all driven by past sales figures. Apparently' date=' the modern-mystic-super books sold better than [i']Galactic Champions[/i]. (I would easily believe that Mystic World outsold Galactic Champions).

 

Well, yes, but there are aliens in the mainstream CU, and space travel is in fact even more commonplace in the source genre than magical stuff is. Why not put out a METE or Champions in Space book? Or "The Alien World"?

 

I have a hard time believing that all product decisions are driven by sales considerations when Lucha Libre Hero is in the publication queue.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

These decisions are all driven by past sales figures. Apparently' date=' the modern-mystic-super books sold better than [i']Galactic Champions[/i]. (I would easily believe that Mystic World outsold Galactic Champions).

 

Well, that may or may not be true, but in the case of The Mystic World and Arcane Adversaries, they were to a large extent already written by Dean Shomshak, being mostly updates and expansions of material he and others had already written for Fourth Edition Champs. I've noticed that HG management is more willing to consider slotting a book into their schedule when there's an existing manuscript already on hand.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

We can conclude that Hero Games doesn't think that what sells for Champions would sell for Fantasy Hero (or at least not in the same quantity). Since their the ones that actually know how many copies of' date=' say, [i']Champions Universe[/i] and Valdorian Age they've sold; they're probably in the best position to know what of these two settings will support the greatest number of additional detailing books.

 

Yes, perhaps we can conclude that. I have to wonder how much of that is self-fulfilling prophecy, though. Looking back on the release schedule for past years, it seems to me that Hero Games never really intended to flesh out either the Turakian and Valdorian Ages when they were published, at least for the foreseeable future. Would these settings have generated more interest among fans if, for example, the upcoming city sourcebook for TA had come out shortly after the main setting book? The fact that it didn't appears to be part of HG's publishing plan, but if so it's one that I'm not sure I agree with.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Strike Force is really just waiting for editing' date=' and the resources to publish it. Aaron Allston reportedly has tons of stuff already written for it. Sadly, he'll probably have to find the wherewithal to publish it himself, as DoJ has stated they're unwilling to do so for financial reasons. [/quote']

 

But what would a big book or books on the Strike Force universe really give us? The universe is not that different from the Champions Universe or any other typical supers universe. And the campaign advice from the orginal Strike Force book that accounted for a lot of the appeal of that book now appears in many other places.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions Worlds

 

Well' date=' that may or may not be true, but in the case of [i']The Mystic World[/i] and Arcane Adversaries, they were to a large extent already written by Dean Shomshak, being mostly updates and expansions of material he and others had already written for Fourth Edition Champs. I've noticed that HG management is more willing to consider slotting a book into their schedule when there's an existing manuscript already on hand.

 

 

Basically, The Mystic World and The Ultimate Mystic were commissioned to be a reworking of Dean's The Ultimate Super-Mage. Then The Mystic World came in bigger than expected so most of the villains were pulled out to create Arcane Adversaries.